T60 - Configuration/Price Tradeoffs - Help Me Decide!

[serpico]

I am shopping for a T60 and have the following requirements:
1. Dual core CPU
2. 14", SXGA screen
3. 80gb, 5400rpm hd (minimum)
4. DVD recordable
5. bluetooth
6. 6-cell battery (trying to keep lightweight)
7. no WWAN (not going to use, so can't justify extra cost and weight; also if I decide to use WWAN in the future, I can buy a card)

Using the above requirements, I have narrowed down the many February 2006 Tabook configurations to the following models (all prices are Lenovo retail) (specs conform to above requirements) (specs for models include specs from first listed model unless otherwise specified; price differences are all with respect to first listed model):

2623-D6U - $1949, 1.83ghz, 512mb ram, 64mb video, 80gb hd
2007-C4U - $2499 [$550], 2.0ghz
2007-C5U - $2599 [$650], 2.0ghz, 128mb video
2007-63U - $2699 [$750], 2.0ghz, 128mb video, 1gb ram, 100gb hd
2007-68U - $2779 [$830], 2.0ghz, 128mb video, 1gb ram, 100gb, 7200rpm hd

I've seen messages in this forum that mention that Lenovo reps will offer prices lower than those listed, but since we don't have a standard discounted price list for the above configurations, let's go with retail prices for the sake of discussion and factor in potential discounts later.

It seems to me that the 2623-D6U is a bargain relative to the 2007-C4U - the only improvement in the C4U that I can see is the 2.0ghz cpu for $550 more! I know the fastest chips usually command large premiums, but 2.0 isn't the fastest dual core cpu.
Also, the 63U seems like a bargain relative to the C5U. For $100 more, you get upgraded to 1gb ram and 100gb hd.

Is the warranty on the C4U/C5U different from the others? The only warranty information I am sure is accurate is that the D6U comes with a 3yr warranty. Anyone have more color on warranties?

Are there any other differences in the models that I have overlooked? If not, it seems like the 2623-D6U is the best value. The 63U is sweet, but I can't justify the 38% increase in cost given my needs.

Now if the reps are able to offer large discounts on the higher-end models, but not so much on the 2623-D6U, then I may step it up, but if I'm offered proportional discounts on all models, then I'll go with the D6U.

Any corrections, clarifications, comments, advice are welcome. TIA!

[serpico]

2623-D6U - 1.83ghz, 512mb ram, 64mb video, 80gb, 5400rpm hd
2007-68U - 2.00ghz, 1gb ram, 128mb video, 100gb, 7200rpm hd

Turns out that through employee discounts, I can get the 68U for ~$350 more (before tax) than the D6U. I am assuming that both come with 3yr warranties, but will have to check on that.

Do you think the upgraded components are worth the extra money? Or am I better off saving the $350 and using that to buy another Thinkpad in a few years? I guess this really boils down to a decision on buying less expensive laptops more frequently or buying more expensive laptops less frequently?

[cliff320]

I was actually looking at a list very similar to yours, I ended up ordering the 63U vs the 68U (I also have access to EPP).

As I see it there are two ways for going about it.
1) Write down a list of your needs (what do you really need to do with this computer), and then buy the minimum system that fulfills all of these requirements. It's hard to decide between what your actual requirements are and what would be just nice to have, but you gotta do it.

2) Stretch out your budget as far as it will allow.

I chose the first option, and my requirements were 1) 128 mb video card 2) DVD burner 3) bluetooth. I didn't spring for the thinkexpress model with the exact same config as the 2007-63U, as it had the Verizon wireless and was almost $200 more than the 63U (it wasn't exactly the same outside of the Verizon, the TE model had 512MB less RAM, but a 9-cell battery, but everything else was the same). But anyway, the 2007-63U is the cheapest model that fulfills the three criteria I set out.

I'd suggest thinking hard of what you actually want to do and buy from there....OR splurge and buy the sweetest computer you can afford within reason. You'll hopefully be satisfied either way.

- So, I'd say choose the D6U (which I saw and also agree that it is a great deal), unless you want to do some ocassional gaming or other work that requires 3D, in which case you should spring for a 63u/68u.
- I'd go for a 68U over the 63U if you do HDD intensive tasks such as video editing or lots of file transfering/sharing, the boost from the 7200 rpm will be apparent. If you are a heavy gamer (which it doesn't sound like you are), it will also help, but in that case you would've probably sprung for a T60p. Otherwise you can save your $50 bucks (hey money saved is always good) for something else.

[cliff320]

EDIT: changed the above post, it was pretty terrible...hopefully it's better now.

I guess this really boils down to a decision on buying less expensive laptops more frequently or buying more expensive laptops less frequently?

Yeah, I have a friend that always buys sub-$1000 laptops b/c he plans on getting a new one every 1.5-2 years. Again it comes down to what you want to do. If you are like me and do light gaming, a 128 mb video card will allow the laptop to last maybe an additional year or two over the 64MB x1300. So for me, the additional 1-2 years of use justifies the extra $300 that 63U costs (those of you without the EPP may unfortunately face a bigger price difference). If you are maybe really hard on your laptops (being banged around due to travel), you might want to spring for less expensive laptops more frequently.

[ScotchDiver]

I've seen messages in this forum that mention that Lenovo reps will offer prices lower than those listed, but since we don't have a standard discounted price list for the above configurations, let's go with retail prices for the sake of discussion and factor in potential discounts later.

It seems to me that the 2623-D6U is a bargain relative to the 2007-C4U - the only improvement in the C4U that I can see is the 2.0ghz cpu for $550 more! I know the fastest chips usually command large premiums, but 2.0 isn't the fastest dual core cpu.
Also, the 63U seems like a bargain relative to the C5U. For $100 more, you get upgraded to 1gb ram and 100gb hd.

The falacy here is that your comparing ThinkExpress models with _custom_ built models. The list price on an express is pretty close to what you'll actually pay (maybe minus a discount of $150 or so). The list price on a 2007xxx is a LOT more than what you will get quoted when you actually place the order (unless you go with a reseller like say CDW). I ordered a 200793U for $3023, without any special discounts, which is only $24 more than the 2623DDU. The point here is not to expect list prices to be equally subject to discounts.

ScotchDiver

[serpico]

I don't plan on doing any gaming or video editing or using 3D apps. My uses are mostly Office-type apps, web browsing, file sharing, watching the occasional movie, etc.

I was considering moving up to the 63U/68U simply for a faster laptop (faster cpu, more memory, faster video, faster hdd). My thinking was that the extra speed, while not hugely beneficial today (since my uses are fairly simple), would extend the laptop's useful life vs. that of the 2623-D6U.

But now I'm leaning towards the spend less, buy more frequently model. With the D6U, I get all the great Thinkpad features (shock mounted hdd, rollcage, security, keyboard, etc.) that I would get with a more expensive Thinkpad. Yes, it will become obsolete a little earlier than the 63U, but the saved $300+ will buy better technology in a couple of years than it can today. So Cliff, I guess that means I'm leaning towards using your approach #1. And yes, your revised post was more helpful, thanks.

ScotchDiver - pls see my second post - the price difference I quote there is with an EPP discount on each laptop.

Also, Cliff, did your 63U come with a 3yr warranty?

[wpwood3]

2623-D6U - $1949, 1.83ghz, 512mb ram, 64mb video, 80gb hd
2007-C4U - $2499 [$550], 2.0ghz
2007-C5U - $2599 [$650], 2.0ghz, 128mb video
2007-63U - $2699 [$750], 2.0ghz, 128mb video, 1gb ram, 100gb hd
2007-68U - $2779 [$830], 2.0ghz, 128mb video, 1gb ram, 100gb, 7200rpm hd

You need to discount all of the 2007 models by 16% or so to get a more accurate comparison. The Express models are already discounted.

[serpico]

2623-D6U - $1949, 1.83ghz, 512mb ram, 64mb video, 80gb hd
2007-C4U - $2499 [$550], 2.0ghz
2007-C5U - $2599 [$650], 2.0ghz, 128mb video
2007-63U - $2699 [$750], 2.0ghz, 128mb video, 1gb ram, 100gb hd
2007-68U - $2779 [$830], 2.0ghz, 128mb video, 1gb ram, 100gb, 7200rpm hd

You need to discount all of the 2007 models by 16% or so to get a more accurate comparison. The Express models are already discounted.

Yes, that makes sense. When I make that adjustment to the 2007 models, the pricing seems about right relative to the express model - i.e., the price differences are in line with the value differential of the upgraded components.

For example, the C4U msrp is $550 more than the D6U, but if we discount the C4U by Bill's 16%, we get $2099. Now the price difference between the two models is $150. On buy.com, the price difference between the 1.83ghz and 2.0ghz CPUs is $142.

Thanks for the information Bill.

[ScotchDiver]

2623-D6U - 1.83ghz, 512mb ram, 64mb video, 80gb, 5400rpm hd
2007-68U - 2.00ghz, 1gb ram, 128mb video, 100gb, 7200rpm hd

OK then, considering just these 2 spec sheets, I'd have to say "HECK YEAH". $350 more for a 9% processor bump, double the RAM, a significantly faster HDD, and better GPU performance. If you can afford it, I'd say it's well worth the money.

On the issue of buying cheaper PCs, but on a more frequent basis, I completely understand where your'e coming from. For my home PC, I never go bleeding edge. I usually upgrade my home office PC every 2 years, and I always seem to buy components just past the point on the price/performance curve where it makes the sharp bend. Overall, this strategy keeps me running the latest software at a comfortable speed, without scaring the wife too much.

With that in mind though, I almost always go high end on my laptops. I think the reason for this is that you can't buy a laptop that performs close to a good desktop (Alienware, falcon, etal. excepted but these aren't really travel laptops). So, I guess I'm saying that I can't stand to have it take 5 minutes to do a compile on the road, which I can perform at home in 30 seconds. This makes me less likely to actually _do work_, i.e. write code, when I'm traveling.

There is also the issue that when I'm on the road I'm usually around customers. As the resident sales/service/training/and-everything-else engineer, I frequently have to code up a fix/feature, test it out, and demo it live on short notice. This happens with the customer looking over my shoulder the whole time. In those situations, I can't _afford_ a discount, consumer grade, laggy, POS computer. Your needs and wants may differ from mine, but thats my $.02.


ScotchDiver
T60P 2007-93U On Order

[serpico]

2623-D6U - 1.83ghz, 512mb ram, 64mb video, 80gb, 5400rpm hd
2007-68U - 2.00ghz, 1gb ram, 128mb video, 100gb, 7200rpm hd

OK then, considering just these 2 spec sheets, I'd have to say "HECK YEAH". $350 more for a 9% processor bump, double the RAM, a significantly faster HDD, and better GPU performance. If you can afford it, I'd say it's well worth the money.
<snip>

I think we have different purposes for considering a top-of-the-line laptop. You need it for current intensive use. I was using the high-end specs as providing a bit more "future-proofing".

So for my needs, not sure the upgraded components are worth it (ordered in my view of usefulness):

1. Memory: This is the upgrade that I view as most worthwhile, but I can always do this myself in 6 months or so (and memory will be cheaper then).

2. HDD: Agree that 7200rpm will speed up things like boot up, large file transfers, etc. But you pay for that with increased noise - though it's not much louder from a decibel perspective, people are saying that it emits a slightly higher pitched noise (thus slightly more annoying) than an equivalent 5400rpm hdd.

3. CPU: 1.83ghz to 2.0ghz provides only a very mild performance enhancement, but you pay for having a near top-of-the-line processor

4. Video: Everything I've read indicates that the only significant difference between the video cards on the 2 laptops (ATI Mobility 64mb X1300 vs. 128mb X1400) is the video memory. Since my graphics uses are pretty simple, not sure it's worth the extra ~$80 for another 64mb of ram.

That being said, if I can find a configuration that incorporates the extra main memory and 7200rpm drive, but doesn't include the extra video memory, I'd be more inclined to step up.

[cliff320]

yes all of the models I considered had a 3-yr warranty. I believe most of the models except for some of the 1951 low-end (generally with integrated graphics) have 3-yrs. Though I could be wrong, tabook.pdf has all of the info.

for what you are doing, it doesn't sound like that you are going to need a 7200 rpm HDD (you may not ever notice a significant difference over a 5400), but again it's nice to have. you can try calling in and asking if you can upgrade the harddrive on the D6U, some sales reps are more accomodating than others and will let you do this. Then you can add the extra RAM yourself in later on.

[kaotic504]

how do you like your screen? we bought the same configuration for our laptops except mine doesn't have bluetooth i HAD to have FlexView and mine was supposed to come in today but there wasn't anyone home to accept the package. i'm hoping the 1400x1050 resolution is good, b/c i do a lot of programming in C#. i've read that the 1600x1280 resolution is the one i should have gotten.

[pundit]

i'm hoping the 1400x1050 resolution is good, b/c i do a lot of programming in C#.

And what does C# have to do with resolution?

[kaotic504]

i'm hoping the 1400x1050 resolution is good, b/c i do a lot of programming in C#.

And what does C# have to do with resolution?

nothing, the fact is, i do a lot of programming, i use a lot N-Unit and i like to get as much desk space as possible so i can see my NUnit window, get my watch window, output/command window and still see the controls and classes and not have to sacrafice much of the main coding window. so the resolution has a lot to do with how my IDE looks to me. obviously the higher the resolution, the more stuff i can fit on there, but at the same time, everything gets tiny. my brother has a 14" 1400x1050 res. lcd on his Dell and it looks pretty good, but i've never seen that resolution on a 15" screen. i'm using a 17" LCD right now w/ my desktop and it's running 1280x1024, and it's nice for me. i wish Lenovo had a laptop this strong and with a wider screen and bigger screen like HP's 17" laptop or at least a 15.4" widescreen w/ a Core Duo and separate graphics instead of the integrated Intel 900 or 950.

[pundit]

Obviously the higher the resolution, the more stuff i can fit on there, but at the same time, everything gets tiny.

More resolution means more pixels to work with. Which means, for instance, more screen real estate as you mentioned. More pixels doesn't necessarily imply "everything gets tiny". Font sizes are measured in points, a unit of length, not pixels. If you used the same DPI (dots per inch) and compared a font on a high res screen with a low res screen, then the high res screen will look tinier.

But there is no reason to do that. If you have the time, I'd like to suggest, for instance, this thread. (It looks stupid the website formats the e-mail. I could forward it to you if you're interested.)

Basically, go in for the highest resolution your screen size and budget will afford, and stuff like "too tiny fonts" can be easily fixed. Plus, the higher your resolution, the more pleasing your fonts will appear on screen.

[serpico]

Called Lenovo - the CSR told me that they would not upgrade the hdd on the 2623-D6U.

So my choices are:
1. buy a 7200rpm drive separately either from Lenovo or elsewhere (which is obviously the most uneconomical route, since I don't have much use for a spare 80gb 5400rpm drive)

2. buy a T60 configuration that includes a 7200rpm drive (like the 68U)

3. ask Lenovo for a complete custom build - pricing likely to be more expensive than one of their standard configurations, and ~8 weeks or more for shipment

Going with either the stock D6U or 68U seem like the best options.

[bart]

My personal chioce is 68U. You still have 1 slot RAM left to upgrade. You are not paying a premium for the high-end processor tag for T2500 because T600 takes that title. I think 68U has got enough options to justify the price difference (~350) with D6U.

And for the price you are talking about, it's a killer deal.

[cliff320]

just received the T60 200763U today. I don't have any time to do a thorough review for two weeks (extremely busy from now til the end of this week then taking off for a week), but I'm not sure that I could add anything more constructive to reviews that other people have been posting.

Quick impressions are that keyboard has a different feel to it than my T23 (still good, but different), and I'm definitely not used to the high resolution. I'm pretty sure there are no dead pixels, but the pixels are so tiny that I don't think that I could tell. The thinklight is noticably brighter, though it's something I never use. Wireless was extremely easy to get up and running, and the Thinkvantage software has been much improved. Generally, it is blazing fast and nothing seems defective (yet). Speakers are mounted kind of weird, in that it appears that part of the grill extends into the bottom of the laptop, but so far, it sound quality is pretty much like my old T23 (not great but passable). It does sound a little better when the sound is maxed out though. But then again I didn't buy this to be a multimedia powerhouse machine. Construction overall is solid, and it actually squeaks less than my old machine when you are moving it around, and is also more solid than my brother's T43 (I noticed a lot of flex on his palmrest above the PCI express slots). The new rollcage must be doing its thing. Anyway, so far so good, hope you guys get your thinkpads soon!

[serpico]

Thanks for all the input. I ended up ordering the 2007-68U. Since I will not only be travelling with this computer, but am hoping that it will serve as a desktop replacement, I opted for the extra horsepower.

Will post my impressions once I fire it up . . . OK, after I do a clean XP install.

[own6volvos]

Ouch pricey.

Personally I wouldn't be so fast at doing a full clean install. Mine was incredibly bloated with crap out of the box (2623d3u), and after removing the key players it is down to the goodness of one of my normal setups. Getting rid of the Norton junk (all 6-7 parts), Google desktop, Picaso, DLA, and a few others it is doing good.

[cliff320]

I'm sure later on I'll probably be kicking myself for getting the 63U over the 68U, but then again, maybe it'll make the T80 that I get in the future seem even faster.

And this one is so nice that I can't bear to send it back and wait for the 68U to come.

[serpico]

Ouch pricey.

Personally I wouldn't be so fast at doing a full clean install. Mine was incredibly bloated with crap out of the box (2623d3u), and after removing the key players it is down to the goodness of one of my normal setups. Getting rid of the Norton junk (all 6-7 parts), Google desktop, Picaso, DLA, and a few others it is doing good.

Yeah, definitely more than the D6U, but this makes it easier for me to give up the desktop.

You raise a valid point on uninstalling the bloatware vs. clean install of XP. Does anyone know if starting with a clean install yields a faster computer than simply uninstalling all the junk? If you do the latter, you can always use Partition Magic or the like to get rid of the hidden partition.

Do people in this forum tend to do the clean install simply because they know that starting from scratch will make their laptop lean and mean, but are not sure that uninstalling the bloatware will result in as good an outcome? Intuitively it would seem (to me at least) that starting from scratch would be better if one had the skills and free time.

[serpico]

Ouch pricey.

Personally I wouldn't be so fast at doing a full clean install. Mine was incredibly bloated with crap out of the box (2623d3u), and after removing the key players it is down to the goodness of one of my normal setups. Getting rid of the Norton junk (all 6-7 parts), Google desktop, Picaso, DLA, and a few others it is doing good.

Yeah, definitely more than the D6U, but this makes it easier for me to give up the desktop.

You raise a valid point on uninstalling the bloatware vs. clean install of XP. Does anyone know if starting with a clean install yields a faster computer than simply uninstalling all the junk? If you do the latter, you can always use Partition Magic or the like to get rid of the hidden partition.

Do people in this forum tend to do the clean install simply because they know that starting from scratch will make their laptop lean and mean, but are not sure that uninstalling the bloatware will result in as good an outcome? Intuitively it would seem (to me at least) that starting from scratch would be better if one had the skills and free time, since then you could be sure that all the traces of bloatware are gone, including DLLs and registry changes.

[bart]

looks like some guys who ordered the 68U on 03/13 are getting their thinkpads sooner, already shipped y'day...... hopefully we'd get them sooner too....