Why should I consider paying $650 more for a LENOVO?

Message

NJRonbo · #1 Post by **NJRonbo** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:55 pm

Here's my situation...

I own a beautiful dual-core desktop with 2Gigs of ram. I love
the fact I can run high intensity programs on it and that I can
load dozens of programs at startup with NO LAG.

I want the same thing in a notebook. It has to be duo-core
with 2GIG ram and a 100 gig SATA drive. It also has to be light
and portable since I use it for business travel.

Now, from what I hear, the LENOVO is the best. But it also
costs a lot more than other brands.

I took a look at the HP dv1000t, their flagship notebook.
After configuring it for a T2500 processor, 2 gigs ram and a 100 gig
SATA drive the cost came to about $2150 and that includes
an extra 12-cell battery.

Now the LENOVO...

I looked at the 2623D3U which is their T60 Think Express
model. It's one of their highest rated. After upgrading to 2gigs of ram
the total comes to a whopping $2800

That Lenovo doesn't even have a standard CDRW or
dual-layer DVD drive like the HP does. It just comes with
a 4x recordable DVD drive. I'm not even certain that like the HP,
you can bypass bootup to play CDs, DVDs and media files.

The PLUS to the LENOVO seems that it comes with a 3-year
warranty standard. One needs to pay a premium for that kind of
warranty with HP.

I am very interested to hear from IBM owners as to why I should
justify paying a premium for a LENOVO -- especially when
technology will be greatly changed in another 2 years and I'll be
looking for another upgrade.

Thanks in advance!

#2 Post by **draco2527** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 6:23 pm

If you do a search, some people have called direct and with the "mastercard" discount and a little dealing they got the T60p ($3800) for $3K...I think it is a good deal!

NJRonbo · #3 Post by **NJRonbo** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 6:27 pm

Hi Draco!

Nice to meet you. Thank you for the response.

Please take a moment to read my comments here: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=21608

Lenovo wouldn't budge -- would not negotiate -- never
mentioned a discount -- and was sort of just plain uncourteous.

I sent the company a letter as a result.

astro · #4 Post by **astro** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 7:17 pm

This is going to sound like unsubstantiated marketing, but it is my (somewhat subjective) opinion. I hope you find it relevant. Here goes:

Thinkpads are designed for corporate use. I'm talking 100, 1000+ deployments. They are designed to offer the best balance of performance, battery life, size, serviceability, manageability, security and above all, reliability.

Reliability is why they don't use cutting-edge components.
Reliability is why they don't use the cheapest components possible.
Reliability is why they can be confident in providing a 3 year warranty when many others only offer 1/3 of that.

So I think the price difference is made up by:
- Reliable design is expensive.
- Reliable components have been used.
- They have to have higher profit margins because this is not a 'budget' consumer PC which is sold en masse.

IBM/Lenovo are counting on -- no wait, they know that big businesses are more concerned about minimising on-going maintenance and downtime than upfront cost. That said, I'm not sure if the same rules apply to small business.

hoya · #5 Post by **hoya** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:44 pm

I don't think the DV1000t is an appropriate notebook to compare to a ThinkPad T60. the DV1000t is a consumer machine sold at Best Buy. the T60, as many will attest, is a commercial-grade product that is superior in nearly every respect.

if you go to hp.com and look and their business line, you might see a more comparable machine. however, I've tried many HP's and I have always found something wrong with every single one. either the keyboard was bad, or the fan was loud, or the screen was dim. anyway, once you've actually tried every other machine, you'll see why people gladly pay top dollar for a ThinkPad. they are worth every benjamin.

darrenf · #6 Post by **darrenf** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:53 pm

The drive that came in my T60p is a Hitachi-LG model GSA-4083N that has these specs:

8.5GB Dual-Layer Recording
DVD+R: Max 8x (DL Max 2.4x)
DVD-R: Max 8x (DL Max 8x)
DVD+RW: Max 6x
DVD-RW: Max 6x
DVD-RAM: Max 5x (WOW!)
CD-R/RW: Max 24x/26x

Not too shabby for a 9.5mm drive

-darren

jeremivw · #7 Post by **jeremivw** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:05 am

hoya wrote:I don't think the DV1000t is an appropriate notebook to compare to a ThinkPad T60. the DV1000t is a consumer machine sold at Best Buy. the T60, as many will attest, is a commercial-grade product that is superior in nearly every respect.

Couldn't agree more. NOT an apples to apples comparison.

Oh, yea..and...

HP SUX

christopher_wolf · #8 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:36 am

Not to be biased, but I have to agree with the past few posts....

The DVT is more of a consumer system; whenever I have seen that, it is *always* an indication that they want to shove in as many features as possible to grab the attention of the "Consumer;" usually, the consumer is a person easily impressed with lots if media (that they will probably never use) and a huge screen for viewing said media (upon which they will use insofar as much as playing solitaire on a 30" monitor). My last experience with HP was probably the worse I have ever had of any company that manufactured a product that I bought. I would go with a T60 any day over that.

The HP I got was a ze5170, a P4M 2.0GHz desktop replacement; that said, it did that job too well...It barely moved.

First off, when I got it...I discovered that it wouldn't reliably boot; turns out that the BIOS was about a year older than the manufacture date of the laptop. I called HP up and took a look on their website, there were no updates to be had for it. So I dealt with it and the fingerprints on the screen that it came with.

Next problem I had with it, Driver Support. Again, I can understand that the BIOS revisions took time, but waiting for the driver updates was too much. I then signed up for their driver alert program, which promptly lead me to a useless set of drivers. Nothing like the Software Installer on Thinkpads or the Driver Matrix pages you see for Thinkpads. If you have ever seen a parts catalog for HP lab equipment (Way too complicated), you will know what I mean.

Next up, a Battery and Memory recall by HP. The battery apparently posed a hazard to the user; the only thing that HP battery posed to me was annoyance because it *wouldn't charge*. According to HP, the memory also had a problem that caused the system to crash every now and then, especially during high graphics loading. I sent in for replacement parts and, to this day, have never gotten them despite numerous calls to HP. I had all the symptoms they were describing and more. Add to this, the GPU would overheat and crash the system that way.

The thing that finally killed off the ze5170 HP was HDD failure; it first started when the HP couldn't boot into Windows without taking 30 minutes. It got near the Point Of No Return, but I managed to barely save it several times. Then a nasty head crash took it out in conjection with the GPU overheating and the memory causing a system crash, because of that crash...The HDD couldn't ramp its heads in time, and had them crash into the platters and skid for awhile. OK, now I have to get a new HDD. So I get a 60GB 7200RPM Hitachi HDD Travelstar, the future version of the drive that was in the HP originally. Guess what? The HP wouldn't work with the new HDD; I knew it was a BIOS and controller version issue since the connection was fine, and the CD DRive could read and write to it fine. The BIOS simply couldn't boot from it. I later comapared the BIOS version to that on a very old Compaq and it was only 0.5 increments away. I looked it up, and discovered that the BIOS had been very old from the beginning and there were, and are still, *no* updates to it.

This has continued into their latest "consumer" models; I know this because I know of three people who have bought HPs in the past few months and they have been having the *exact* same problems. There are a few HP lines worth getting, but these are either based off of Compaq, are tablets, or the nc6200 Series which essentially an attempt to copy the Thinkpads.

Compare this to an HP OmniBook I had that still runs without problems; something seriously went awry with HP when they decided to dis-continue the OmniBooks and start producing laptops of significantly lower quality.

In retrospect, I shouldn't have strayed from Thinkpads and Powerbooks and probably should have gotten another Thinkpad instead. The amount of time I spent on it, the time my friends are spending on their systems, and the grief caused by HP Support (Who *insist* that the HDD shouldn't be replaced by the customer) is nearing sheer ridiculousness.

NJRonbo · #9 Post by **NJRonbo** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 4:12 am

Okay guys....

If I go with IBM....

Many are saying I should go with a THINKPAD
over a LENOVO. Why?

With that in mind.....

If it's a LENOVO I want the T60. What is comparable (top-of-the-line)
in the THINKPAD series?

Thank You all for your help.

andy6387 · #10 Post by **andy6387** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 4:24 am

Lenovo is the brandname, thinkpad is the product line. they are the same thing

hoya · #11 Post by **hoya** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 6:13 am

andy6387 wrote:Lenovo is the brandname, thinkpad is the product line. they are the same thing

technically, Lenovo now makes its own laptops, the Lenovo 3000 C100 and N100 series, so a Lenovo ThinkPad is different from a Lenovo 3000.

back to the point: you want a Lenovo ThinkPad T60, formerly known as an IBM ThinkPad. if you look in ANY publication that rates reliability, the ThinkPad brand is consistently at the top with Apple (check pcmag, consumer reports, and even a UK publication that I recently saw).

try calling telesales one more time to get a better deal on a T60 - you might have to do a bit of 'surfing' to find the right rep. good luck.

Mandrake · #12 Post by **Mandrake** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 6:16 am

That is right but Lenovo has it's name on a different (cheaper) line of notebooks.

http://www-131.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/store ... &langId=-1

The T60 is part of the Thinkpad line. Still, all Lenovo.

ageyfman · #13 Post by **ageyfman** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:03 am

NJRonbo, you really need to think about what you're going to do with your laptop. Are you going to be carrying it around? Traveling with it? Using it for high-end projects - like software development, 3D modeling, advanced photo editing? Or, are you going to use your laptop for Productivity applications - like Office, QuickBooks, etc, a bit of web browsing and some family photos?

If the answer is number two, don't worry about getting a thinkpad if price is such an issue. I for one have owned both thinkpads and other brands of laptops. Right now, I am on a Dell. It hasn't really lived up to my expectations in terms of feel, however, it has MORE than impressed me in terms of reliability - nothing has EVER crashed on it. EVER. No motherboard failures, no video problems, only 1 dead pixel (unnoticeble other than loading windows), and otherwise stable.

So, inherently, there is little wrong with non-thinkpad laptops. But, from a subjective point of view, I did not receive as much peace of mind using the Dell as I did using the thinkpad. For example: The keyboard on the thinkpad is comparable to a desktop - dell's isn't. The case on the dell is plastic and can be damaged quite easily - the T has a magnesium shell. There is no trackpoint - I love the trackpoint, and miss it dearly. The Dell is huge, I am talking about 7 pounds + at least another 1.5 for the power supply - the T is around 5.5lb + .8lb for power supply - and since I travel every week, that will be a WELCOME change.

Additionally, unlike with most laptops, you don't have to trade size for speed. The tiny, thin Thinkpad is just as powerful (or more so) than any other laptop.

So, to summarize - get whatever you're comfortable with. However, I def. would pay a premium for the thinkpad - and I did, I spent about a grand more for my T60p than I would if I bought a dell or an HP... However, if your means don't allow you to do that, I would recommend a Dell. Laptops are good for consumer machines, and their warranty is as good as IBM's (or so I've read, since I never had anything done to mine...).

JHEM · #14 Post by **JHEM** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:13 pm

NJRonbo wrote:I am very interested to hear from IBM owners as to why I should justify paying a premium for a LENOVO -- especially when technology will be greatly changed in another 2 years and I'll be looking for another upgrade.

Simply put, if your employment or income depend on a reliable laptop, buy a Thinkpad.

If not, consider a lesser/cheaper alternative.

Regards,

James

#15 Post by **BillMorrow** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:19 pm

typing on my new T60p, i can say that it is superior to the T43p sitting next to me..

first, h/p does not suck, h/p is one of the premier computer makers and instrument makers ever, IMO..

the sad fact is that they are chasing the consumer market and not the higher end business market..

so far, in spite of all that has been said about the lenovo takeover, there are enough IBM'ers in the foo dchain at lenovo so that the product still reeks of quality..

i'll let the others, who have actually used an h/p notebook, give their opinions on the quality of current h/p notebooks..

unless NJRonbo is extremely impoverished, and it does not sound that way, the price difference for the increased quality of a thinkpad is trivial and will be recovered at the time he sells or through many years of use.

so, NJRonbo, welcome to the select group of thinkpad owners who hang out here..

NJRonbo · #16 Post by **NJRonbo** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:37 pm

so, NJRonbo, welcome to the select group of thinkpad owners who hang out here..

Well....you SHOULD welcome me. I just dropped
almost $3K on a T60 about an hour ago.

2623D7U
T2500 processor
14" screen
1.5 Gigs Ram (extra $200 for a 1 Gig strip to bring it to 2 Gigs total)
Leather Premiere Carrying Case ($29 extra)

This is a great board, and I do plan on meeting all of
you over time and hanging out here (I run a huge HT forum
of my own).

ONE QUESTION & COMPLAINT

If yuh don't mind me askin'....

Why oh why was this thread closed?

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=21608

I really felt that it provided information to
everyone that the folks at Lenovo aren't
budging on prices and their attitude about it
was a bit uncourteous.

For the record, this was the third salesperson
I talked to who absolutely would not negotiate
a price.

I have to be honest, it took a lot to convince
myself to buy the LENOVO. It wasn't the price that
put me off so much the fact that their sales staff
really didn't attempt to sell me anything, explain
why the laptops were priced as they were, or even
were polite when I inquired about price negotiation.

Let's hope this T60 is everything you guys say it is!

Thanks for the welcome, Bill. Look forward to
talking with all of you over the next few years.

JHEM · #17 Post by **JHEM** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:04 pm

NJRonbo wrote:Well....you SHOULD welcome me. I just dropped almost $3K on a T60 about an hour ago.

You did check with Bill (www.thinkpads.com) for a price on that or a comparable unit before ordering it from Lenovo, right?

(BTW, it's not necessary to hit enter at the end of each line in your posts, the forum is setup to wrap text automatically.)

Regards,

James

PS: From your sig you're here in Jersey?

NJRonbo · #18 Post by **NJRonbo** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 4:55 pm

JHEM,

No, I never checked with Bill. Had no idea to do so and
nobody suggested it until now.

Could I have saved some money?

Yes, I am here in Central NJ!

#19 Post by **JaneL** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 5:09 pm

NJRonbo wrote:ONE QUESTION & COMPLAINT

If yuh don't mind me askin'....

Why oh why was this thread closed?

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=21608

I really felt that it provided information to
everyone that the folks at Lenovo aren't
budging on prices and their attitude about it
was a bit uncourteous.

I closed it with a moderator's note because you were asking the same question in this thread. We don't do duplicate threads. The posting guidelines are in the "READ ME FIRST FAQ then post" section of the forum.

JHEM · #20 Post by **JHEM** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 6:54 pm

NJRonbo wrote:Could I have saved some money?

It probably would have paid, in more ways than one, to read the FAQs.

I'm not sure what models Bill has to hand at the moment, but it's usually more than worthwhile to check what he's got to offer.

Drop him an email (Bill at thinkpads dot com) or give him a call after noon at 772-781-0039.

Regards,

James

christopher_wolf · #21 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:00 pm

Bill is right about HP; they used to be one of the best equipment and instrument companies around. I say "used to be" because they ended up making some rather poor decisions as to what they should end up focusing on. They dropped calculators, then they wanned on the heavier equipment, then they spun that off into Agilent and made 90% of the worth of Agilent dependent upon stock in the old company and increased, perhaps doubled, their exposure to the PC market by acquiring Compaq, production halt of the Omnibooks, etc.

NJRonbo · #22 Post by **NJRonbo** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:07 am

James,

I talked with Bill. He's very busy at the moment and
recommended that I keep my order with Lenovo.

Thank You anyway!

kaotic504 · #23 Post by **kaotic504** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:24 pm

i used to work for HP. they went through a big re-alignment this past year, actually around the 4th quarter of '05. To me, their products are just 'good' now. I'd say better than Sony and about on par as Toshiba, but not as good as IBM. They gave me one of their 'business line' "NC" laptops, i forgot the model number, but they're HP/Compaq notebooks (i have no idea why they have to put both names on their, i never asked, just figured that Compaq used to have a lot of Corporate contracts and they left it on there). The laptop they gave me had the worst excuse for a finger track mouse in the world. if you use it too much it would move to the corner of the screen. everyone at work asked why i wouldn't just use the touchpad or the mouse...they have no idea. They keyboard feel was not as good as IBM and i could tell they were trying to mock IBM's looks and feel. why do you think their business laptops are all black and now out of a hybrid or mixed plastic material (i think mag and plastic). They're even making their new laptops square-er (if that's a word). but i do like the fact that they are cheaper. i would only go back to HP if they gave me the laptops, if i can afford it, i'll always go for good ol' IBM.

Mandrake · #24 Post by **Mandrake** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 9:28 am

darrenf wrote:The drive that came in my T60p is a Hitachi-LG model GSA-4083N that has these specs:

8.5GB Dual-Layer Recording
DVD+R: Max 8x (DL Max 2.4x)
DVD-R: Max 8x (DL Max 8x)
DVD+RW: Max 6x
DVD-RW: Max 6x
DVD-RAM: Max 5x (WOW!)
CD-R/RW: Max 24x/26x

Not too shabby for a 9.5mm drive

-darren

I have the same thing. Where did you find these specs?

darrenf · #25 Post by **darrenf** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 9:44 am

Mandrake wrote:thing. Where did you find these specs?

Google. http://www.cdr.cz/picture/26166/large

-darren

Why should I consider paying $650 more for a LENOVO?

Why should I consider paying $650 more for a LENOVO?

Re: Why should I consider paying $650 more for a LENOVO?

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