Thinkpad screen with pivot function

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lophiomys · #1 Post by **lophiomys** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:21 am

Looking at the Montevallo Concept Notebook by Intel at the IDF,
I wonder if there would be a Thinkpad with a pivot 15" screen available soon?
(Maybe even detachable by extendible cable.)

IMHO that would be really great having one complete page (letter or DIN A4)
on a notebook screen. It would also facilitate a more ergonomic reading
position, and better columnar text display.

I guess the center of gravity would have to be moved toward the
front edge of the casing compared to current TP designs,
so that it wouldn't topple over to the back with pivoted and raised screen.

Anyone else who would be interested in a pivotable notebook screen?

see
http://www.hardwarezone.com/articles/pr ... 18&id=1843
http://news.com.com/2300-1006_3-6047340 ... ne.gall.pg

beeblebrox · #2 Post by **beeblebrox** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:12 pm

Yeah, it looks like the Thinkpad Origami concept with the T40, which was shown 2 years ago.

Problem is that it is not mass production compatible and way too expensive.

After the 701 nightmare (the one with the foldable keyboard) I guess IBM abhores any moving parts in a notebook.

I too had a company Compaq with a "sinkable" keyboard. after 2 years they are usually broken.

RS_003 · #3 Post by **RS_003** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:46 pm

What was so bad on the 701 ?

#4 Post by **draco2527** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:10 pm

RS_003 wrote:What was so bad on the 701 ?

The 701 was a financial nightmare for IBM! Late to market, and by the time it made it; a new generation of processors were coming out. Many of the 701 machines sold for half of the original $4k+ price tag. IBM invested alot in the technology and got little if anything in return for it.

I never seen a 701 keyboard release mechanism fail, they did "bind" as they wore out, but this was easy to resolve with minimal adjustments. The only BIG expense to acomplish this was the T1 Torx bit needed to remove the keyboard (still have it! payed around $70 for it from IBM...)

#5 Post by **AlphaKilo470** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:16 pm

In my opinion, the main reason for the 701C's failure was the 640x480 screen and 486 cpu. This is in mid 1995, Pentiums and SVGA is in demand and the new standard. The 701 was just old technology and the trade-off of portability for power in that machine was just too out of proportion.

#6 Post by **BillMorrow** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:09 am

the biggest failure of moveable stuff was the entire 760 line..
the keyboard would rise at the back..
and the result was a bad and flimsy feel..
imagine writing on a sheet of paper with nothing under it..

keyboards need something to back them up..
much like holding a 2 x 4 in one hand and trying to drive a nail into it with a hammer in the other hand..

the 701 suffered from this as well as the 760 series..

but it was a thinkpad that wound up in a museum, winning awards and desired by many for many years..

a "full sheet" laptop could be made by hinging the 15 inch display at the side and having the keyboard rotate 90 degrees..

but the same lack of a solid base would still show up when typing on the left and right edges of the keyboard..

doing it this way would be much easier than trying to balance the display on a pivot mechanism..

christopher_wolf · #7 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:24 am

Not to mention that whilst pivots are the most obivious and quickest solution to this; they aren't necessarily the best for many of the aforementioned reasons. It is *always* better to have a >14.1" screen supported by two hinges on the extremes rather than a central pivot. Unless you strengthen it alot, which adds cost and takes up space.

lophiomys · #8 Post by **lophiomys** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:18 am

It is *always* better to have a >14.1" screen supported by two
hinges on the extremes rather than a central pivot. Unless you strengthen
it alot, which adds cost and takes up space.

From what I am observing our neighboring company do with modern
reinforced plastics (polymer engineering), I can guess that it is
no rocket sience anymore to design a stable and lightweight mounting
for a notebook screen with a central pivot hinge (with our without
"hinges on the extremes").
And in the end, volume production would reduce cost drastically.

BTW, Thinkpads I always admired always more for their innovative features
and durability than for cost-effectiveness.

Cheers

christopher_wolf · #9 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:39 am

lophiomys wrote:
It is *always* better to have a >14.1" screen supported by two
hinges on the extremes rather than a central pivot. Unless you strengthen
it alot, which adds cost and takes up space.
From what I am observing our neighboring company do with modern
reinforced plastics (polymer engineering), I can guess that it is
no rocket sience anymore to design a stable and lightweight mounting
for a notebook screen with a central pivot hinge (with our without
"hinges on the extremes").
And in the end, volume production would reduce cost drastically.

BTW, Thinkpads I always admired always more for their innovative features
and durability than for cost-effectiveness.

Cheers

Even so, you cannot ignore the forces that get exerted on a single pivot design. Space age polymer? Doesn't matter. Over time it will undergo the same amount of strees, yet flex less than standard plastic. Ideall, you would make is a combination alloy/polymer joint.

How would this reduce cost? It is still easier to make a simple LCD with a connecter and a two hinge setup than it is to plan and make a pivot LCD of the same size and obey the same parameters. Following the same desired tolerances that you would get from a two hinge system, it would cost more on average. In such cases, it is only done if there are additional externalities (i.e. it is a tablet convertible) that outweigh that cost. No, it isn't rocket science, but one can make it *far* more complex should one want to.

Being innovative is all very well and fine, but one has to be careful to not idealize a single thing, break long time rules, and simply build it without regard to its actual usefulness. At every step, the results obtained, the input given, and the process(es) used must all be analized accurately and precisely. It wouldn't be an IBM if it wasn't subjected to such standards.

I have seen 14.1" Convertible tablet laptops; some were good, but more had some issues. In a case like that, I would rather wait awhile for the technology and the implementation to be fleshed out rather than saying it "isn't hard to do that." Of course it isn't hard; nothing hard about making a simple pivot joint. What is hard is making sure it will last, will have similar or exceeding reliability compared to that of dual hinge setups, and actually how *useful* it will be.

lophiomys · #10 Post by **lophiomys** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:09 am

@christopher_wolf

I am for shure not ignoring any forces here, I'm too much an engineer to do that.
To get a second opinion I had a word with one of the polymer engineers,
and he said, that from his work experience he conlcudes that it is feasible.

For the costs: of course a pivot hinge would be more expensive than
standard screen mounting, but IMHO cheap enough in volume production.

From what I can see I did not emphasise to reduce reliability
and durabilty just for the sake of innovation.

IMHO it seems that the innovative force and engineering skills seem to
have been lost somewhere on the way of cutting costs.

I would have been glad if "IBM" would also have cared according to
"such standards" of hinge design, when "IBM" was looking into
fan noise and heat emission. (SCNR

)

... and I'm not idealizing "a single thing". I emphasized a feature
which would indeed be very useful for my work, and for which I would be
willing to spend the extra bug. But from the number and character of
replies, I can see that not many others share this interest.

Thinkpad screen with pivot function

Thinkpad screen with pivot function

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