240Mbit MIMO Wireless mini-PCI Upgrade taken from WRT54GX4

[ssimon]

OK, I have a T41 (2378-DHU) and the 802.11b card it came with does not cut it anymore. Having a PC card sticking out of it's side sucks, so I looked everywhere for a true MIMO card, and no luck. It seems like there are no mini-PCI Airgo True MIMO cards for sale as is.

That is when had a great idea: Knowing that the two new routers out there (Netgear WPNT834 & Linksys WRT54GX4) use mini-PCI cards internally and then simply "build" around them, I decided to take a chance and buy the latest Linksys WRT54GX4 router, take it appart and salvage the cool new Airgo True MIMO Gen3 card inside.

If sucessfull, my little old T41 laptop will be the first one with the 3rd generation 240Mbit wireless built in I will post more once I receive it and perform the surgery.

Any comments, sugestions, ideas, etc...?

Has anyone beaten me to this?

P.S. The cards inside the Netgear WPNT834 & Linksys WRT54GX4 should be identical, and must have 3 antenna connectors, with the T4x only two of the leads can be conected to the built-in wires, but that should be good enough to get at least 108Mbps.

[ssimon]

I have kept looking around and I fear the worse, namely that the format of the Airgo PCI inside the Linksys is the same as the one inside the Netgear seen HERE and below:


The Netgear seems to use an Airgo APX large format card, not the smaller Mini-PCI and will not fit in any laptop...

For reference, HERE is the link to see the different card formats.

I really wish I could find pics of the inside of the Linksys WRT54GX4. If anyone has them or can post them, please do so ASAP...

P.S. I do not mean to turn this forum into a MIMO wireless thread, but if I am succesfull in such a transplant, this could be the ultimate wireless upgrade for any mini-PCI compliant laptop so please bare with me...

[chubes]

The only thing I can say about this is to be careful with what you buy. I know that earlier linksys WAPs did indeed have removable minipci cards. Most ran linux firmware too.

Now I'm unsure if this is the case. I remember reading somewhere that some (if not all) later linksys models had their wireless card soldered onto the board. Not removable in the slightest. Even worse, they stopped using linux in their main product! Boo. Since then, they've come out with a model that specifically states that it runs linux, so they may have gained some brownie points back again.

Again, it would be wonderful to post your findings in this endeavor. I look forward to hearing your results.

[ssimon]

Thanks chubes!

Well, it is a sad day indeed for the MIMO IBM ThinkPad upgrade commnunity It seems like BOTH the Netgear and the Linksys routers use the APx large format embedded chipsets, as confirmed by Airgo themselves.

They also state that there is no retail Airgo AGN300 based mPCI form factor radio on the US market.

They did point me to OEM's like Asus and ODM's like Askey so I will try to contact them. If anyone else can try contacting them as well it might help get more info or a source.

The search and wait continues, but meanwhile I got the latest Lenovo 802.11a/b/g mPCI card so it will hold me over

[chubes]

Glad I could help!

What's the P/N on that item? Is that the Atheros chipset that you ordered?

Let us know how you like this card after you test it for a little while. I'm trying to get a new Thinkpad in the fall, and am reading all opinions on the Atheros vs. Intel cards currently available.

[DIGITALgimpus]

I don't think it's too likely... a few issues come to mind:

1. BIOS in thinkpads doesn't like that... there is a hack I believe... though icky IMHO to mess with something on that level... not sure how others feel about that.

2. Antenna.

[ssimon]

Glad I could help!

What's the P/N on that item? Is that the Atheros chipset that you ordered?

Let us know how you like this card after you test it for a little while. I'm trying to get a new Thinkpad in the fall, and am reading all opinions on the Atheros vs. Intel cards currently available.

Here is the info from the IBM Quote:

Code: Select all

Qty Product Code Description Unit Cost Total 
1 73P4301 LENOVO THINKPAD 11A/B/G WIRELESS LAN MINI PCI ADAPTER II - NETWORK ADAPTER
  Product Description Lenovo ThinkPad 11a/b/g Wireless LAN Mini PCI Adapter II - network adapter     
  Device Type Network adapter     
  Form Factor Plug-in module     
  Interface (Bus) Type Mini PCI     
  Data Link Protocol IEEE 802.11b, IEEE 802.11a, IEEE 802.11g     
  Data Transfer Rate 54 Mbps     
  Compliant Standards IEEE 802.11b, IEEE 802.11a, IEEE 802.11g     
  Manufacturer Warranty 1 year warranty 

[ssimon]

I don't think it's too likely... a few issues come to mind:

1. BIOS in thinkpads doesn't like that... there is a hack I believe... though icky IMHO to mess with something on that level... not sure how others feel about that.

2. Antenna.

You are correct, however:

1) Bios hack seems to be needed only for a couple of models, the newer ones it seems not the T41 line. (I could be wrong, but that is what I read)

2) TPads have 2 internal antennas. The MIMO chipset AGN300 uses three. However looking at the wiring diagrams and traces on the PCB board it looks like one of the connections is discrete and the others are paired as seen HERE! This means a dual antenna setup will also work, even if it does not produce the optimal performance.

[kaplanfx]

Even if you were able to install the hardware, what about drivers? Do these cards have a driver for windows? If they have no consumer part, and they run in a router that most likely uses a proprietary (or possibly a linux based one) then I would doubt that such a windows driver exists.

-Kap

[DIGITALgimpus]

As far as drivers go, shouldn't be bad, as there are only a handful of wireless chipsets... and all have windows drivers. So it shouldn't be to tough. Many/most have some product, and use drivers from another device to run it.

As far as the antenna's go.... I really wonder if it will work ok, or if it will have connection loss issues, since the driver is essentially depending on the availability of the extra antenna and for power management purposes.

Either way an interesting experiment.

[bill bolton]

It seems like there are no mini-PCI Airgo True MIMO cards for sale as is.

Is MIMO antenna technology worth chasing now for better wireless actual throughput speed from a laptop than standard 802.11g.? IMO, no.

Is it worth chasing now for better wireless actual range than standard 802.11g? IMO probably.

Perhaps in a year or two better 802.11 style wireless actual throughputs will be regularly achieveable, but today you can drop a lot of maney down that hole without getting any significant improvement of standard, off the shelf 802.11g performance.

Cheers,

Bill

[ssimon]

Even if you were able to install the hardware, what about drivers? Do these cards have a driver for windows? If they have no consumer part, and they run in a router that most likely uses a proprietary (or possibly a linux based one) then I would doubt that such a windows driver exists.

-Kap

I wish the hardware part was this easy. the answer is there sure are drivers.
Since this is based on the Airgo chipset and the SAME exact chipset is in BOTH the Linksys and Netgear PC cards, there is your answer: either driver will work 100%

[ssimon]

Is MIMO antenna technology worth chasing now for better wireless actual throughput speed from a laptop than standard 802.11g.? IMO, no.
Is it worth chasing now for better wireless actual range than standard 802.11g? IMO probably.

Sure is! I'll take 108Mbps+ any day over 54Mbps

Perhaps in a year or two better 802.11 style wireless actual throughputs will be regularly achievable, but today you can drop a lot of maney down that hole without getting any significant improvement of standard, off the shelf 802.11g performance.

Cheers,

Bill

During real life tests True MIMO 3rd Gen is achieving 100Mbit sustained throughput! (see Tom's Hardware review of the Netgear) which is Ethernet cable speeds! How could you NOT want to get that in your laptop wirelesly NOW and want to wait a year for it?

[gfish]

I agree. I have the new Linksys SRX400 wireless router and notebook wireless card and it has doubled my download speed! I think it is well worth it. Seems like the card makes my laptop run hotter than the internal IBM wireless modem - guess that is the only negative.

[bill bolton]

[quote="ssimon]During real life tests[/quote]

Tests!

During real life usage its not. I know from practical experience.

How could you NOT want to get that in your laptop wirelesly NOW and want to wait a year for it?

To quote the cartoon I have pinned up by my desk - "Do you want it done NOW..... Or do you want it done RIGHT!"

Unless the results are reasonably repeatable over an adequate range of conditions its a lot of money for no real benefit. 802.11g technology level of repeatablity in terms of performane that its worth the cost. The newer 802.11.psuedo-standards still have quite a way to go to reach that stage.

Cheers,

Bill

[ssimon]

To quote the cartoon I have pinned up by my desk - "Do you want it done NOW..... Or do you want it done RIGHT!"

I think you are splitting hairs and love your "G" too much. You are afraid to try something now, just because it is not "the standard" or a retail product. Inovation is based on experimentation, taking risks and combining existing equipment and technology in new and novel ways.

Honestly, for $50 to $100 cost, I'd rather have it done NOW at 200% improvement over 802.11g, be it at only 70 or 80% efficiency as compared to the final 802.11n standard that is still 1-2 years away! Especially since the MINO technology is 100% backwards compatible with the current 802.11g standard.

If you read this forum you'll see countless posts from people who want to improve their machines by adding that "non-standard" hard drive with extra space and speed or faster memory or a better video card, most if not all being unsuported, unfinalized and non-standard. None of them are afraid to try to squeze that last bit of performace today and not a year from now.

But do not let me come across as the proponent of experimentation and a nutball that wants performance today rather then wait till next year, let's take a poll
POLL ADDED TO INITAIL POST ABOVE - CAST YOUR VOTE!

[ssimon]

HOT off the press: ASUS just announced availability of an Airgo mPCI based on the new AGN300 chipset: the WL-126gM

Now I am calling them like mad to get one. Anyone else interested should do the same...

[bill bolton]

I think you are splitting hairs and love your "G" too much. You are afraid to try something now, just because it is not "the standard" or a retail product.

Now I know you are just trolling!

[ssimon]

HOT off the press: ASUS just announced availability of an Airgo mPCI based on the new AGN300 chipset: the WL-126gM

Now I am calling them like mad to get one. Anyone else interested should do the same...

Finally got on the phone with Asus and was very dissapointed to hear that their new Airgo MIMO mPCI card will only be sold overseas untill it is approved in the US by the FCC. UGH, yet another example where Europe and the rest of the world get all the cool stuff years ahead of us. Bummer!

[DIGITALgimpus]

I wouldn't worry about it. It's still DRAFT, and not final.

IMHO until it's final... not worth the box it ships in.

[bhtooefr]

Well, if you have a friend in Europe...

This is what Volkswagen enthusiasts have to do to get the Euro parts, have a military friend who ships stuff "home" really cheaply.

Anyway, I voted "not touching it". Heck, 802.11b is fast enough for me, as I don't transfer that many files. I mainly use it for internet access, which doesn't even come close to 802.11b's max throughput.

[ssimon]

Well, if you have a friend in Europe...

This is what Volkswagen enthusiasts have to do to get the Euro parts, have a military friend who ships stuff "home" really cheaply.

Anyway, I voted "not touching it". Heck, 802.11b is fast enough for me, as I don't transfer that many files. I mainly use it for internet access, which doesn't even come close to 802.11b's max throughput.

Well, if anyone can get it for me from Europe, PM me immediately No joke!

As for speed, I guess you are not like me who likes to stream DVD's over my Wired/Wireless LAN

[DIGITALgimpus]

802.11b's Max (theoretical) is 11Mbps, but that doesn't account for all packet overhead.... so in reality you won't see more than 5Mbps in ideal situations. The average being more 3.5-4Mbps.

Many broadband providers now offer 4-8Mbps (I know Comcast's basic tier is about 6Mbps with bursting up to about 10Mbps).

802.11g will offer you 54Mbps, theoretical... reality is ~20Mbps (with WPA encryption).

802.11g should be more than enough for a home WiFi install for at least another year, and likely 2-3.

Because broadband providers lack the upstream performance (due to technical issues, as well as policy to limit the impact of P2P and viruses impacting network performance)... you won't feel much more of an increase in downstream performance. At least not enough to pay for (meaning not enough for providers to offer until they upgrade networks significantly).

I really hate how some companies pitch the idea that Gigabit ethernet enhances broadband computing for home users... it doesn't. 802.11g does *NOW* a little bit (though 802.11b is perfectly fine for most). And was pitched as a "giant" performance gain.

Yes, this is just corporate marketing, and I understand why they do it... but IMHO it's dishonest and unethical. If you have 802.11b, don't worry about it. For web *browsing* there is no real performance increase from 1.5Mbps -> 6Mbps because page rendering time is most of the load. Your browser doesn't render 6Mbps worth of data, at least not any computer on the market today. Only file downloads increase in size. Unless you download lots of stuff, or visit very graphic intensive sites... your wasting cash.

I really feel bad when people fall for some of this marketing stuff. Your T41, T42 is still a great computer despite T60's now existing. It's perfectly capable of doing just about anything.

So don't worry about it!

[daeojkim]

Well I have to truly say that ssimon is very brave to try this. I certainly admire his motivation.

I did feel that others were against it. But I truly did not see a good real reason not to try it. First of all his approach is innovative, it will be fun. He may fail but he may also succeed.

The only loss that he may have if it does not work is money. If he has enough of it and if he thinks that the excitement is worth all the trouble, then I do wish you the best of luck and certainly let us know when you get it working.

JK

[bhtooefr]

Myself, I have 2.5-3 Mb/s downstream on my cable connection.

It's plenty fast for me. I do lots of large downloads, but that's enough.

FWIW, I do use 802.11g with WPA, partially because it's there.

[bill bolton]

IMHO until it's final... not worth the box it ships in.

"Interoperability among the various brands of access points and client cards was also disappointing, according to Farpoint Principal Craig Mathias. "In no case could we get any heterogeneous combination of the 'draft compliant' clients and [wireless] routers to connect at more than typical 11g (20-24Mbps) rates," he wrote in the test report." ComputerWorld - 802.11n wireless LAN draft fails to advance


Cheers,

Bill

[xkeithx]

it'd be interesting to see if there are any other routers out there with the mini-pci format cards in them. even if its not the right size, it theoretically could still work with the longer cards, just for experimental purposes. maybe removing the motherboard so the case isnt in the way, then you can see if its going to work at all. but who's to say that if it doesnt work, you cant simply return the router to the store and get your money back? in most cases they arent going to know (or care) if you opened it and tried the pci card in your computer. i would do this myself but i dont have a mini pci slot in my laptop. i know the new d-link DI-634M has a pci card, however it uses the atheros chipset. and its a little longer than the minipci form factor. i happen to own this router and when i get my thinkpad im going to try this out and see if i can get it to work.

[ssimon]

Thank you [daeojkim] and everyone else that has shown interest in this "project". While it has not come to fruition, it was interesting and if anything helped me learn a lot more about MIMO and how Routers are made.

The point is mute right now as Lenovo released a new miniPCI card that is an Atheros ARBXB72L 802.11 a/b/g/n MIMO card (AR5008) for "select" ThinkPad models. The "select" part means it is a straight upgrade for models that have the 3rd antenna as MIMO uses it for signal separation.

The Lenovo a/b/g/n XP driver is HERE

Here is the PR from Atheros on the chip:

Atheros XSPAN™ with Signal-Sustain Technology™ (SST) unleashes the full potential of MIMO to significantly enhance signal reliability and throughput at range. This is achieved through the world’s first single-chip, triple-radio RF design. The AR5008 delivers up to 300 megabits-per-second (Mbps) physical data rate with real end-user throughput of 150 to 180 Mbps, and achieves, on average, 50 percent greater sustained throughput at range than 2x2 MIMO systems.

Well, I have just received this card and I am eager to install and test it in my "incompatible" machine with only 2 WiFi antennas.

I will also try to locate the P/N for the 3rd Antenna and see if I can install it myself. Can't be that hard as the LCD is made to be opened up fairly easily.

If anyone has any info on the 3rd Antenna upgrade & maybe some pics/schematics for a T60 / T60p, PLEASE post it here. Thanks!

[ssimon]

OK, in-place upgrade of the Atheros AR5006 with the new Atheros AR5008 802.11n miniPCI card from Lenovo, Complete!

Drivers used in XP are from link above and seem to work well.

Now I need to get the Vista drivers and fix Apple OSX86

I'll post again....

Again, if anyone has the 3rd antenna info, please post it