This is disgraceful(linux installations)...

[SteveBallmer]

Well well. One would think that Thinkpads would be linux compatible, that they are not--atleast mine isn't. I just blew 12 CD-R's trying to install different distros of linux on my X41.

Debian -
Popped in the CD, couldn't even detect the ATA drive. I can do nothing about this since this is one of the first steps of the installer. Fail.

Fedora -
I thought this went the best out of the rest, it installed with 5 CD's just fine, X booted, and wow, the tracker mouse and sound work! This is one nice distro, I think to myself. But oh yeah, when it comes to the wireless card(Intel PRO 2200bg), fedora automatically installs with a 4K memory stack. The drivers for this card require much more. I research the problem and download and install the kernel patch which is supposed to increase the stack to 16K in order for wireless cards with ndiswrapper to function properly. It installs, but there of course is a side effect, all .ko modules are now voided due to them being non standard(modprobe ndiswrapper yields 'Invalid Module'). I try recompiling the kernel, recompiling ndiswrapper, nothing will make this card work. I'm stuck in 640x480 in gnome with the only means of internet being the ethernet card. Spent a good portion of my day trying to fix this. Not only that though, you close the lid in the midst of gnome and you'll never get back into X without rebooting. Not worth it simply because of that. Fail.

Mandriva -
This had to be the one I thought, it's simple enough for linux newbies like me, only hear good things about it in terms of how easy it is to use. Well, first off right when i put in the first CD, it complains it can't find a harddrive. Beautiful! After figuring out how to manually install my hitachi via the ata-piix driver, it installs, just to have X windows flag an error on boot. The error being it can't find libglx.a, I reboot, it's a different error, this time "No screen found." While loving this, I pop the install CD back in, because perhaps I had misconfigured somthing out of the very few configurable options about X in the mandriva installer. I try EVERY SINGLE refresh rate and resolution, press the test button, try different color depths, repeat process until every combination possible has been tested. Every single time i'd test, 5 tiny little green boxes would appear at the top of the monitor. I can make out a button and a half purplish pixel of a cursor. Spent two hours trying to get X to work, didn't happen. Sure had fun with xorgconfig and xorg.conf with vi, though(yeah right). Oh, and the whole time, I had to stare at this, pathedic, freakish, clown looking mascot they call a mandriva's linux penguin in the background the entire time. Another OS that can't even be booted properly. Fail.

Slackware -
It was a slaughter. I am not going to get into it.

My question to you all is...why is it SO DIFFICULT to install a simple linux distro on my laptop that I thought was pretty linux compatible before I baught it? I am stuck in Windows, I need to write in windows native code and I don't have a VMWare for any OS other than linux. Somebody please explain to me why this is happening to me--am I not smart enough? Does linux in general love to stick it to you? Is the Thinkpad X41 just not meant for anything other than windows? If these distros specifically are not good for the X41, then what distros are? I'm not going to blow anymore CD-R's unless I know that the distro will function on my laptop first.

Sorry for the rant, but I'm very frustrated

[christopher_wolf]

Have you checked out Thinkwiki.org ? They have some very good guides on how to setup Thinkpads (all of which thus far have been *very* Linux friendly ) with most of the popular Linux distros.

I know that Linux works on an X41 and an X40, although I haven't tried any of the aforementioned distros out on it.

[carbon_unit]

Try this one:
http://www.xandros.com/products/home/de ... nload.html

Version 4 is expected to be out soon and will be even better than the current version.

[egibbs]

Can't specifically address the X41 as I've never been in the same room with one, but I echo your pain and can make a suggestion.

I put Ubuntu on my T42P, and it installed very cleanly. Had to do a few trweaks, install tpkeys, etc., but pretty much everything worked.

The problem is that only "pretty much everythig" worked. The wireless radio worked, but I couldn't turn it off with F5. Edited the scripts and got that working but the LED never accurately showed the radio status. Never did figure out how to control BOTH the Bluetooth and 802.11 radios with F5 like in Windows - I could set F5 to control either but not both.

Wakeup from Hibernation and Standby have known problems related to the ATI driver. It's been a while but as I recall one worked and the other didn't. You could uase a different driver but that caused other problems.

Sepaking of the video system, I never was ablt to get anything but middling performance in GLXgears, and this is with a 128 MB ATI FireGL T2. I tried all the optimization trick I could find, but even at it's best it was poor.

After a lot of mucking around (I'm a Linux newbie, Windoze power user) I eventually decided that everything was as good as it was going to get. Everything was working more or less, but I never got anything working as well as Windows does out of the box.

Application software is another story. Spent several frustrating days trying to get LIVES to work, tried out gnuCash as a MS Money replacement (estimated 3 solid weeks to transfer my data and clean it up afterward - Money's fault, I know, but still a bad thing), tried some CAD and modeling software (yeah, right), eventually decided that overall Linux was a nice alternative to Windoze but not ready for prime time as an end-user desktop OS on the TP.

I echo your "Why does it have to be so hard?" cry.

Ed Gibbs

[K0LO]

I have the tablet version of the X41, so my experience may differ from yours. I installed Kubuntu a couple of weeks ago. Like egibbs, I had a pretty good experience right out of the box. Ubuntu and Kubuntu have a lot of development work going on right now, so they're pretty up-to-date.

However, like most things in life, 90% of everything worked right away, but it's that last 10% that takes 90% of the effort. It took less than half a day to have a working Linux installation and a couple more weeks to work the bugs out of that last 10%.

These parts were easy: Ethernet, Wireless (unencrypted), video (1200 fps in glxgears), sound, Windows networking (Samba), IBM Fn keys, SpeedStep, USB, trackpoint, Fn-F5 turns both wi-fi and Bluetooth on and off (even though I have Bluetooth disabled in the BIOS)! These all worked right out of the box.

These parts were fairly easy with a little configuration: Wacom pen driver, encrypted wireless (TKIP), support for the middle scroll function on the trackpoint device, standby.

I'm still not there with these: AES and Secure-W2 wireless encryption, automatic switching between wired and wireless using ifplugd, spin-down of SATA drive, Hibernation.

Yes, Linux can be painful but that's what makes it so much "fun". If you're the type who enjoys challenges, there's nothing like finally getting something to work after 2 weeks of reading arcane articles and hundreds of user posts.

Don't get me wrong; I really have enjoyed the challenge and wouldn't want to give up my Linux install, but it really makes you appreciate just how well Windows works.

[Lisa_T]

I'm a newbie here. I have an X20 that I was hoping to eventually use purely with an open source OS distro. I tried any number of Linux flavours- Suse, PCLinuxOS, Ubuntu, and a number of others that wouldn't properly boot or install, even from the live cd- and found that either they were too slow (PCLinuxOS) or refused to recognise either my wired ethernet connection or my wireless card (Ubuntu). Now, I know Linux needs a certain amount of tinkering and has a steep learning curve- and I'm willing to do that, but WHY must even simple things be so difficult?!

The thing that really gets me though is the connecting to the internet issue. With Windows, if you can't/won't use one computer for internet connection- no big deal, go online with any other, download your .exe files, save them to whereever, and then just click 'setup.'

Many open source distros now virtually insist that the computer you install on is connected- otherwise getting new software/updates becomes something of a nightmare! I don't want to have to learn how to compile software and all the rest of it- I want to be able to get my software from any computer, save it to any storage medium, and then simply click an .exe type file to run/install! Judging from many Linux forums, the issue of installing new apps seems to be a major stumbling block for Linux newbies.

As for me, my experimentation days are over. I tried installing DesktopBSD on my X20- it was on the 'compatible laptops' list. Installation went fine, but on reboot the computer couldn't seem to load either the boot loader, any OS (dual boot setup) or BIOS. Assuming it can be fixed, I'm sticking to Windows and Windows clones from now on.

Rant over. That was a long nearly-first post!

[icantux]

Wow

How unfortunate that folks give up on something when faced with the prospect of a bit of research and understanding. Indeed linux is a different beast than windows and it certainly takes some time to prepare and research before installing any distro. We've all been quite spoiled by Microsoft's Windows and it's "work-on-any-machine" philosophy. Is that good? Yes and no. Although the ability to plug anything in the machine with immediate results is a fine idea it introduces so many more problems such as performance-related issues, stability and security issues, to name a few.... all for the sake of "usability". What a sacrifice.

Although there are a number of linux distributions that emulate this "plug-and-play" and "double-click-to-install" philosophy (PCLinuxOS, Linspire - hence slow and bloated), most don't and probably won't introduce this anytime in the future. Why? Linux is geared to be a "customized" operating system from the time of installation and hence requires the user to understand the file system and command structure. Things like driver installation seems difficult indeed to the uninitiated, but for those that have good background knowledge of linux find these tasks trivial and simpler than others. Sure it takes time to understand linux features but nothing's gained without patience and will. It's a different beast than what you're used to - period.

Expecting otherwise is ludicrous. Frustrating? Sure. Giving up at the first sign of trouble without making an effort to understand, though, is just a sign of our desire to have a ready-made solution on demand. Want to opt for the easy road? Then be prepared to open your wallet and pay others for the work you're not willing to do.

[Lisa_T]

Personally, I wouldn't minds experimenting further- but i've had trouble either booting AT ALL or getting as far as the desktop on a newly installed Linux system! Right now I'm left with a virtually unusable system. I'll probably try linux again in the future- but I think I'll stick firmly to the safety net provided by live CDs.

[Kyocera]

Please check out carbon units suggestion above, Xandros loaded fine on my t30 and t42. It really is easy to use and get around in.

incantux

How unfortunate that folks give up on something when faced with the prospect of a bit of research and understanding. Indeed linux is a different beast than windows and it certainly takes some time to prepare and research before installing any distro

.

I agree. Personally i have found "problems" to be part of the fun, maybe that is my sickness. I've also got OSX booting on both my thinkpads and that was supposed to be a "problem".

[K0LO]

If you read Lisa's other post, I think she's stuck right now with a system that won't boot at all, so that would tend to be discouraging.

You can probably recover by trying to boot from one of your install CDs and attempting to repair the bootloader. If all else fails, boot from a Windows CD and run a repair installation. That will wipe out the Grub (or Lilo) Linux bootloader but at least you'll be able to boot into XP. You could later, after doing a little more research, figure out how to reinstall the bootloader and configure it to let you boot into either Windows or Linux.

Also agreed, Xandros is pretty nice but lately I've been more impressed with Kubuntu.

[cvwright]

My question to you all is...why is it SO DIFFICULT to install a simple linux distro on my laptop that I thought was pretty linux compatible before I baught it?

Because you're new at it, and, like many things, linux does have a substantial learning curve. Don't worry though, you seem to have done pretty well by yourself, and I bet with a little help you'll be able to get it all sorted out.

I can't speak to the other distro's, but I may be able to help out a bit with Fedora, cause it's what I use. Since you mention the 4k stack issue, I assume you're trying to get your wireless card working using the Windows driver with ndiswrapper. If so, it's a lot easier to download a pre-built kernel with 16k stacks from a company called LinuxAnt than it is to mess with building a kernel yourself. Here's a link for the 16k stacks kernels on Fedora Core 4 (if you're on FC5, the URL is probably similar):

linuxant kernels for FC4

Otherwise, you probably want to check out the livna repository. They have some pre-built packages for the Intel cards, as well as a bunch of other fun stuff that the main Fedora project can't or won't carry due to patent concerns (MP3 support, various video codecs and players, etc).

Sorry for the rant, but I'm very frustrated

Been there, done it, got the t-shirt. I'm happy to see that you're able to get a lot farther than I used to when I was starting out in 98/99.

[icantux]

I tried installing DesktopBSD on my X20- it was on the 'compatible laptops' list. Installation went fine, but on reboot the computer couldn't seem to load either the boot loader, any OS (dual boot setup) or BIOS.

I'd really advise against insalling BSD (of any flavour) before getting a rudimentary understanding of posix commands, file structure and lingo. (POSIX = any unix/linux/bsd type of OS). BSD can be quite different from Linux as well, so don't confuse the two. The hardware nomenclature and some commands are different enough to cause difficulty and confusion even to the seasones linux user. Sure it may install well on a ThinkPad X-series and even recommended as an OS for that computer type, but the results are based on those that already have a good understanding of BSD and/or linux. Since you are relatively new to the whole idea, you'll likely to encounter frustration and discouragement.

Start with linux - first of all - and choose something with a wider support base first and then move on to other, more difficult scenarios.

[cvwright]

I don't want to have to learn how to compile software and all the rest of it- I want to be able to get my software from any computer, save it to any storage medium, and then simply click an .exe type file to run/install! Judging from many Linux forums, the issue of installing new apps seems to be a major stumbling block for Linux newbies.

That sounds pretty reasonable to me. In fact, with most modern distro's, this should be possible right now for lots of programs. You just go to your distribution's software repository, download whatever packages you need (using another linux machine, windows, a mac, whatever) and save them to wherever. Then get them to your linux box, point the package manager (yum or apt or whatever) at them and say "hey, install this stuff".

The trick is knowing exactly which packages you're gonna need, because the package you want might need several others to be installed in order to function properly (this was known as "DLL Hell" in the bad old days of Windows, or "RPM Hell" in the bad old days of linux).

I guess one simple solution would be to go to your distribution's repository and download *ALL* the packages, then put them on a CD or DVD, external hard drive, whatever's big enough, and get 'em to the linux box that way. Then you tell the package manager to install the ones you want, using the others you downloaded to satisfy dependencies.

[christopher_wolf]

I tried installing DesktopBSD on my X20- it was on the 'compatible laptops' list. Installation went fine, but on reboot the computer couldn't seem to load either the boot loader, any OS (dual boot setup) or BIOS.

I'd really advise against insalling BSD (of any flavour) before getting a rudimentary understanding of posix commands, file structure and lingo. (POSIX = any unix/linux/bsd type of OS). Sure it may install well on a ThinkPad X-series, but the results are based on those that already have a good understanding of BSD and/or linux. Since you are relatively new to the whole idea, you'll likely encounter frustration and discouragement.

Start with something with a wider support base first and then move on to other, more difficult scenarios.

I second this; BSD and the like are truly powerful, however, only if you know how to handle them. Start off with something a tad easier first, such as a user-friendly linux distro. Then begin learning about how everything works on it.

[icantux]

I tried installing DesktopBSD on my X20- it was on the 'compatible laptops' list. Installation went fine, but on reboot the computer couldn't seem to load either the boot loader, any OS (dual boot setup) or BIOS.

I'd really advise against installing BSD (of any flavour) before getting a rudimentary understanding of posix commands, file structure and lingo. (POSIX = any unix/linux/bsd type of OS). BSD can be quite different from Linux as well, so don't confuse the two. The hardware nomenclature and some commands are different enough to cause difficulty and confusion even to the seasoned linux user. Sure it may install well on a ThinkPad X-series and even recommended as an OS for that computer type, but the results are based on those that already have a good understanding of BSD and/or linux. Since you are relatively new to the whole idea, you'll likely to encounter frustration and discouragement.

Start with linux - first of all - and choose something with a wider support base first and then move on to other, more difficult scenarios.

[wingman]

I have to say that most of the reason that I purchased a thinkpad was its compatiblity with windows. I currenlty run breezy on my x31. I have full support for everything, suspend to RAM, suspend to disk, etc., thinkpad buttons, wifi (including wpa), well, like I said everything. While I recommend Open Source solutions for peoples software conundrums, I find that linux is not for most people though. Why you ask?
Most people don't want to take the time to figure out how to use it. I am not intending to be rude. As it was pointed out earlier in the thread, installing things on windows is easier (grab the .exe and go). And while you don't need to connect to the internet to run linux it helps (just as windows without internet access is not that great either, linix without internet access is not as much fun; to be fair winxp does not install any drivers for my wifi or ethernet card)
To windows users, linux is different because in fact, it is different. Nothing is really similar. Some think that is bad, others good. It comes to choice. How much time will you invest in something to use it? As a former windows user, it took me a couple months until I was comfortable using linux full time. Consequently I have not booted windows in about 5 months (I only use windows to take exams as my schools software requires windows, otherwise I would not have it installed at all).
There are very good resources on the web for installing linux on thinkpads. Google and this forum are good places to start.

[dummkopf]

This article is for folks who want to flee viruses and spyware and think Linux can be Windows replacement ...

http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm

[Volker]

You almost had FC5 up and running:

But oh yeah, when it comes to the wireless card(Intel PRO 2200bg), fedora automatically installs with a 4K memory stack.

Which is a good thing. You don't need the ugly ndiswrapper hack. In fact, FC5 comes with the driver for your intel wireless/pro 2200bg. You just need to download the firmware from http://ipw2200.sf.net.

[icantux]

Which is a good thing. You don't need the ugly ndiswrapper hack. In fact, FC5 comes with the driver for your intel wireless/pro 2200bg. You just need to download the firmware from http://ipw2200.sf.net.

Or better yet, just do (as root):
rpm -Uhv http://livna.org/~anvil/livna-release.rpm

and then just this (as root):
yum install ipw2200

Voila!

.... one page reading yielded those results... Of course Intel could make matters easier by lifting their restrictive licensing on the drivers - then the various fine folk (that work for FREE! I may add) could then add this to the kernel so new users wouldn't have to get frustrated all the time.

[toddyjoe]

About two months ago, I was a complete Linux newbie. I had no idea what "dstro" even meant. Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Debian, Knoppix... it all sounded like something a bunch of basement hackers and computer elitists came up with while driving home from a Star Trek convention. Live CDs? Does that mean there are Dead CDs outside of the tie-dye world? Windows worked just fine for me and my very old Thinkpad 310ED, so why bother playing with this so-called Linux?

On the other hand, this Linux stuff was popping up everywhere I looked on the Internet. There had to be something about it that at least some folks were drawn to. So I started doing some research and decided to try out this "Linux" thing. I had no idea if it would even work on my old 310ED, but it really couldn't hurt to try.

After trying several Live CDs distros and a couple hard-drive installs on my 310ED, I can now honestly say Linux is addictive. It opened up a whole other world of programs and software and a whole different way for me to approach the operating system environment. I learned very quickly that it is not Windows, although some distros try to emulate Windows. To me, Windows is user-friendly and pretty with neat sounds and ease of use with most anything on the market. On the downside, newer Windows versions kept me from changing how it worked and what it would let me do, acting like it was designed to protect me. It also ran slow at times, hogged huge amounts of hard-drive space and caused occasional instabilities, crashes and virus problems. On the flip side of the coin, Linux is not very user-friendly until you get the hang of the basic operations and commands. It is not necessarily as pretty-looking as Windows (take [censored] Small Linux's archaic-looking screens, for example), nor does it have the universal compatibility with everything the market and Internet has to offer. On the plus side, Linux puts me in the driver seat and lets me build my own operating environment. If I want to use a certain piece of hardware, program or software, I can go look for drivers and such on the Internet, do a little research and install it myself. Linux does not protect me from myself like Windows and prevent me from messing with the core system setup; in fact, Linux would let me do anything, even destroying the system if I wanted to. Unlike the bloated Windows, I have been playing with Linux distros on my 310ED that are smaller than 100MB and some even smaller than 50MB in size ([censored] Small Linux, Puppy Linux, Feather Linux, etc.). While there is certainly a substantial learning curve with Linux, learning and understanding the basics of Linux has actually helped me better understand Windows. While I have not yet abandoned Windows for certain applications, I am now dual-booting Linux (without partitioning, mind you) to have access to another world of options. My Thinkpad is actually fun to use again.

In closing, do not give up. Linux works on Thinkpads. Linux works on YOUR Thinkpad. If we can learn Windows, we can all learn Linux. If you can learn Windows, YOU can learn Linux. Good luck!

[jchryst01]

I had a similar expirence doing a fresh install of Windiws XP on my T60p. First off the installer could not find the harddrive. After some research I found I had to modify the bios to make it work. Once I got Windows installed I did not have sound, I had lousy graphics, no wireless and I don't believe that the ethernet adapter worked.

I poked around the internet and found that I had to install drivers for all of these devices manually. I went to Lenovos website and downloaded the drivers onto a working computer and burned a CD. Then I installed the drivers on the new Windows install. All went well except for the sound driver would not install. After poking around a bit I found out that the order that you install the drivers mattered.

After installing all of the drivers I went into Hardware Manager and noticed that I still had a couple of "?" next to devices - I don't remember what they were. I went back to Lenovo's website to search again. I found the necessary drivers and installed them.

So several reboots and trips on the internet I finally had my system in great working condition.

I now have installed Fedora Core 5 on my system and I must say the install was much easier. The harddrive was detected, the ethernet was found and configured, the sound was foundand configured and I even have graphics working at 1600x1200x24. I had to manually install a driver for the wireless but that wasn't too bad.

It seems to me that it's not always that easy to get a computer working from a fresh install. I would guess this is do to the wide range of hardware that needs to be supported.

-Joe

[chubes]

Wow

How unfortunate that folks give up on something when faced with the prospect of a bit of research and understanding. Indeed linux is a different beast than windows and it certainly takes some time to prepare and research before installing any distro. We've all been quite spoiled by Microsoft's Windows and it's "work-on-any-machine" philosophy. Is that good? Yes and no. Although the ability to plug anything in the machine with immediate results is a fine idea it introduces so many more problems such as performance-related issues, stability and security issues, to name a few.... all for the sake of "usability". What a sacrifice.

You hit the nail right on the head. I can't agree more with what you just said here.

[colryn]

Am I the only one to who thinks this is a joke thread?

[christopher_wolf]

Am I the only one to who thinks this is a joke thread?

...Maybe not; then again, this thread has been drifting a tad off topic as some threads about linux distros are wont to do.

[Kyocera]

Why is it a joke thread?

[colryn]

Why is it a joke thread?

The persons username is Steve Ballmer and he is complaining about how hard it is to install many flavors of Linux.

[Kyocera]

did not make that connection

[toddyjoe]

The persons username is Steve Ballmer and he is complaining about how hard it is to install many flavors of Linux.

I did not immediately catch the connection. Thanks for pointing it out. On the other hand, it would not surprise me if the real Mr. Ballmer (CEO of Microsoft for those not yet in on the joke) has a machine or two with Linux on it. After all, he has to get his ideas on how to improve Windows from somewhere. (Only joking, no offense intended to Windows users. )

[aceo07]

Slackware 10.2 was really easy on my X22. (Though I did accidentally format my data partition that I was using for Windows. Less incentive to go back to Windows I guess.)

Everything works after installing. Didn't have to configure X windows or much of anything. I just had to enable scroll wheel option and load drivers for my wireless atheros for WPA. I haven't figure out the startup scripts yet, so I need to do a dhcpcd on ath0 everytime I boot to setup my network. Otherwise, I'm happy.

Too bad the Kororaa Live CD 0.2 doesn't give me XGL Gnome on this laptop.

[Aristotle11]

Kororaa Live CD 0.2 doesn't give me XGL Gnome on my X31 either, but the KDE XGL on the Kororaa Live CD 0.2 worked perfectly!