TouchPad (and now TrackPoint too!) Usability

[donking!]

one group even managed to get a rat brain to interface with a flight simulator and fly an F-22 perfectly level as if the rat brain acted as a mini-control system to keep the Raptor flying straight.

That is bizarre. Are you making that up? Does this mean in the future our military will be run by rats?

[christopher_wolf]

No, I am not making it up

A group at a university in Florida got a rat brain to interface correctly with a flight simulator and fly an aircraft on a straight trajectory

I lost the original link, but a bit of searching should turn it up

[donking!]

Here's an article. One of many:

http://www.napa.ufl.edu/2004news/braindish.htm

It's even weirder. They took neurons from the rat brain. Put them in a petri dish. Then let them reconnect themselves into a network that controlled the flight simulator. So the story gets reported as "brain in dish" flies simulator.

[dr_st]

I don't think that would prove much. This forum has a self selecting population of ThinkPads enthusiasts. It wouldn't be surprising that they all love the TrackPoint more, if that turned out to be the case. But I doubt it would reflect much about all the many people out there in general who have ThinkPads or are given ThinkPads for their work.

I agree with your point here. I'd go as far as saying that most Thinkpad fans prefer the trackpoint, but not all Thinkpad users and Thinkpad fans. Many just use 'em because it's what they have, due to different factors.

However, there's another observation I'd like to make, or actually strengthen what I said earlier on Trackpoint v. Touchpad. While there may be some exceptions (such as yours, because you seem to be quite proficient with a touchpad), my primary feel is the touchpad is the interface of choice of most novice users (because it's more intuitive to use for the first time), while trackpoint is preferred by most advanced users, i.e. users who have had some experience with both devices. I still stand by my claim that at maximum level of expertise, the trackpoint is superior and allows one to navigate faster and more efficiently.

Also, maybe I'm getting this wrong, but my recollection is that the TrackPoint was introduced when the TouchPad still hadn't been settled on as the standard laptop pointing device. Back in the day, there were still things like the original PowerBook with the trackball (a truly great pointing device, in my opinion). And all those tiny poorly designed trackballs. Then the TouchPad came along and IBM adopted it more or less along with everyone else (while also keeping the TrackPoint). So the fact that there are millions of ThinkPads with only TrackPoints reflects more an older state of the technology than a ThinkPad preference. But maybe I'm wrong about some of the timing of that.

You are a bit wrong with timing it seems, but not much.

IBM was with the trackpoint from the beginning (the trackpoint was introduced on IBM Thinkpads). And you are right that at the time there were various pointing devices, like trackballs and the early touchpads. I got to use all three at some point of my life - my dad had an Apple Macintosh with a trackball (still has it actually), then briefly he had a 486-SX Thinkpad (forgot model) with a trackpoint, and I also got to use some touchpads on laptops of others. Starting to use a touchpad after being quite proficient with the pointing stick immediately brought the feeling of "Ugh, how can someone navigate using this piece of junk?". Of course, they have gotten better, but so have trackpoints, so to me the difference in usability remains.

As for IBMs using touchpads, it came much later than the initial introduction of that device. I think the T30 (P4-M) was the firsrt IBM laptop using pads, and it was much after the industry has already accepted them as the defacto standard.

[donking!]

However, there's another observation I'd like to make, or actually strengthen what I said earlier on Trackpoint v. Touchpad. While there may be some exceptions (such as yours, because you seem to be quite proficient with a touchpad), my primary feel is the touchpad is the interface of choice of most novice users (because it's more intuitive to use for the first time), while trackpoint is preferred by most advanced users, i.e. users who have had some experience with both devices. I still stand by my claim that at maximum level of expertise, the trackpoint is superior and allows one to navigate faster and more efficiently.

Well, we'll have to see if I become a TrackPoint user now that I have one. I like it. Usually I get used to things like this pretty quickly. It only took me about a day to switch to left handed mousing, when I was having repetitive stress problems with my right. But so far, the TrackPoint hasn't grabbed me.

The main thing I don't like about using the TrackPoint so far is the buttons. I find reaching them a little awkward. Of course, that's why I'm so fond of the tapping and dragging functions on the TouchPad. I largely navigate without using buttons at all. And that's why I was disappointed in the not great functionality of the press-to-select option on the TrackPoint. But perhaps in time, I'll be a big TrackPoint fan too. The basic principle of not moving one's hands from the keyboard I think is a very good idea.

I'm not sure I buy the advanced user vs. novice user theory. I see the logic of it. But are there really "advanced" pointing device users? On the one hand, what would that be? Isn't some sort of pointing device something that everyone has to use? I'd think there are people who do pretty swift pointing with all kinds of devices and most people get beyond "novice" (whatever that is) pretty quickly. On the other hand, what would "advanced" pointing be anyway? Sounds like something a hunting dog would do.

[christopher_wolf]

Yeah, there are "Advanced Pointing Device Users" geeky as it may sound. I have seen people gradually work their way up to using the Trackpoint after a while working with the Touchpad. Now, I *always* keep my hands on the keyboard whilst using the mouse with the Trackpoint. Index finger on the Trackpoint, thumb on the left mouse button,middle and 3rd finger near the home row keys and enter, and pinky next to the browser keys. The only reason I take my finger off the Trackpoint during normal use is to type and/or reach for other buttons.

Used well, I can pretty much out pace any other user in a point-and-click kind of task with my Trackpoint versus their Touchpad.

I even have scaled down the Winamp player, shaded, and at 10% opacity and I am still able to quickly zip over and hit one of the three top-right windows buttons with ease on the first try with little to no overshoot.

[dr_st]

The main thing I don't like about using the TrackPoint so far is the buttons. I find reaching them a little awkward. Of course, that's why I'm so fond of the tapping and dragging functions on the TouchPad. I largely navigate without using buttons at all. And that's why I was disappointed in the not great functionality of the press-to-select option on the TrackPoint. But perhaps in time, I'll be a big TrackPoint fan too. The basic principle of not moving one's hands from the keyboard I think is a very good idea.

I'll tell you how it works for me. When I type both my hands are naturally on the keyboard. When I want to use the trackpoint to navigate, I move my hand (usually the right one, but I can do it with the left too) every so lightly, so that my inedx finger rests on the trackpoint cap, and my thumb automatically moes to rest on the left trackpoint button. If I want to use any other button (right, middle), I only move my thumb. My hand stays put at all times.

Of course, it may not feel as comfortable, if your hands are too large or to small. I have small-medium hands for a guy and it's pretty perfect.

I'm not sure I buy the advanced user vs. novice user theory. I see the logic of it. But are there really "advanced" pointing device users? On the one hand, what would that be? Isn't some sort of pointing device something that everyone has to use? I'd think there are people who do pretty swift pointing with all kinds of devices and most people get beyond "novice" (whatever that is) pretty quickly. On the other hand, what would "advanced" pointing be anyway? Sounds like something a hunting dog would do.

I was rather thinking about advanced vs. novice in general. Some people live and breath computers, others use them an hour a day, only to read news on websites or listen to music. People of the latter kind rarely go beyond novice in terms of PC usability - they often don't care to learn shortcuts or advanced features to be able to do various tasks on the computer quickly and efficiently. As such they also don't care much about navigating fast.

On the other hand, while any person that has used a computer has also used a mouse, some barely use the laptop pointing devices. I myself almost never use touchpads and since trackpoints are scarce as they are, I bet many people have never used it.

[archer6]

Also, maybe I'm getting this wrong, but my recollection is that the TrackPoint was introduced when the TouchPad still hadn't been settled on as the standard laptop pointing device.

You are 100% correct

the original PowerBook with the trackball (a truly great pointing device, in my opinion). And all those tiny poorly designed trackballs. Then the TouchPad came along and IBM adopted it more or less along with everyone else (while also keeping the TrackPoint)

I had a PowerBook 140 with the trackball and it (was) & is my favorite input device to date. I really miss it. Regarding the TouchPad, again you are 100% correct.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that the TrackPoint isn't great. I think it's really cool that IBM came up with a device that people love so much and find so useful. And I'm glad to have the option of using the TrackPoint myself. But I don't understand why people are so down on the TouchPad.

I too really enjoy the option of two input devices. Compared to any other TouchPad that I have used (quite a few) the "new one" on the T60 & Z60 series, I find quite nice. That said, my personal preference is the TrackPoint (again, this is simply personal preference).

[kstuart]

(I assume that is better to revive an old thread than to start a new one)

I've used a mouse for years - longer than 99.9999% of people actually, since a friend demonstrated the very first mouse to me at Xerox Parc in 1975.

A few weeks ago, I bought my first Thinkpad (570) and used the Trackpoint for those weeks. It has many good points, especially its location.

A few days ago, I received my T40 and began to try the Touchpad.

It has some very useful features:

- Top of the list is the scroll bars along the right edge and the bottom edge. Already I can see that these are the easiest way to scroll - and that is quite a statement from someone who designed and coded the first ever scroll bars on a Unix machine.

- If you remove the tap zones, then a tap anywhere is a left click. This makes a very easy-to-find place to click. The area is much larger than the top of the button(s), so you can just stab generally at the region.

- If you are doing a GUI activity rather than a typing activity, then the Touchpad allows you to control everything with one finger - it can click, move the mouse pointer and scroll. As such, it emulates a mouse quite well. In contrast, the same actions using the Trackpoint requires a couple of other buttons. I find the scroll button plus Trackpoint combination to be the most awkward method of scrolling ever - it is actually easier just to grab the scroll bar.

- I have the two extra Touchpad buttons set to Minimize and Maximize, which saves me a lot of work finding the little boxes in the corner of the windows.

So, while the Trackpoint is very handy to have while typing, the Touchpad also has a lot of utility as well.

[jvarszegi]

The trackpoint was the first device I disabled. I don't want it interfering if I happen to brush it while typing. In my experience one can achieve greater speed and accuracy with a touchpad, by far. However, I am happy to have the trackpoint available just in case I feel like using it in the future.

One other strike against the trackpoint: the kludgy implementation that requires the use of a tiny scrollbar on-screen, which pops up if you hover over a certain pixel. Implementing a stuck pixel in software just seems sort of dodgy to me. I disabled the trackpoint and rebooted and it seems to have gone away-- wish I could find detailed instructions on reenabling that pixel permanently.

I definitely think that the hardware implementation of the trackpoint is better on Thinkpads than on HP and Dell machines I've used, though. They seem to be added on other brands almost as an afterthought. I'm astonished that the Mac hasn't copied it yet.

[GomJabbar]

The trackpoint was the first device I disabled. I don't want it interfering if I happen to brush it while typing. In my experience one can achieve greater speed and accuracy with a touchpad, by far. However, I am happy to have the trackpoint available just in case I feel like using it in the future.

One other strike against the trackpoint: the kludgy implementation that requires the use of a tiny scrollbar on-screen, which pops up if you hover over a certain pixel. Implementing a stuck pixel in software just seems sort of dodgy to me. I disabled the trackpoint and rebooted and it seems to have gone away-- wish I could find detailed instructions on reenabling that pixel permanently.

My experience is the exact opposite.
The TouchPad was the first device I disabled. I don't want it interfering if I happen to brush it while typing.

I disabled the TouchPad and rebooted and the weird pixel seems to have gone away. I'm guessing it is when both are enabled that one gets the weird pixel problem.

As they say YMMV.

[jvarszegi]

The trackpoint was the first device I disabled. I don't want it interfering if I happen to brush it while typing. In my experience one can achieve greater speed and accuracy with a touchpad, by far. However, I am happy to have the trackpoint available just in case I feel like using it in the future.

One other strike against the trackpoint: the kludgy implementation that requires the use of a tiny scrollbar on-screen, which pops up if you hover over a certain pixel. Implementing a stuck pixel in software just seems sort of dodgy to me. I disabled the trackpoint and rebooted and it seems to have gone away-- wish I could find detailed instructions on reenabling that pixel permanently.

My experience is the exact opposite.
The TouchPad was the first device I disabled. I don't want it interfering if I happen to brush it while typing.

I disabled the TouchPad and rebooted and the weird pixel seems to have gone away. I'm guessing it is when both are enabled that one gets the weird pixel problem.

As they say YMMV.

That's good to know about the pixel! You know, at first I disliked the fact that the touchpad was so far from the keyboard, but now I like it-- it decreases the chance that your thumb will brush against it. I guess after long practice, though, I don't have a problem because I always keep my thumbs elevated. The thumb problem is admittedly a weakness with the touchpad design in general on laptops.

[kstuart]

The TouchPad was the first device I disabled. I don't want it interfering if I happen to brush it while typing.

There is actually a setting in the TouchPad software to control whether an accidental brushing will have any effect...

[GomJabbar]

The TouchPad was the first device I disabled. I don't want it interfering if I happen to brush it while typing.

There is actually a setting in the TouchPad software to control whether an accidental brushing will have any effect...

I was actually mirroring jvarszegi's post. This was not really an issue with me.

I am serious about the TrackPoint though.

[ramian]

While I too have disabled the TouchPad in favour of the TrackPoint, donking's post about the trackball brought back some good memories. I had it on an ancient Compaq laptop and I preferred using that to the trackpoint-like implementation by Compaq. The trackball buttons were on the right side of the laptop, just next to the trackball at the bottom right of the palm rest.
Aaah... those were the days.

[chrisnyc]

kstuart said :
If you are doing a GUI activity rather than a typing activity, then the Touchpad allows you to control everything with one finger - it can click, move the mouse pointer and scroll. As such, it emulates a mouse quite well. In contrast, the same actions using the Trackpoint requires a couple of other buttons. I find the scroll button plus Trackpoint combination to be the most awkward method of scrolling ever - it is actually easier just to grab the scroll bar.

I'd like to second this. Frequently I'm doing little typing, just navigating web pages, for example. In this situation the touchpad is perfect in that I can do everything with one finger, and I can comfortably rest my hands on my desk. The trackpoint pretty much requires your hands on and around the keyboard, which if you're not typing, does not seem ideal.

That said, I haven't yet mastered the trackpoint, even when typing.

Also -- not all touchpads are created equal. The Thinkpad Ultranav touchpad is GREAT -- I think it's a Synaptics, correct me if I'm wrong. I've used touchpads on some other computers, for example the Alps pads on all of the current Dell notebooks, and they are TERRIBLE ; it's not a software issue, it's the touchpad itself, which just doesn't give the precise, reliable, responsive experience you get with the Ultranav touchpad.

I'd appreciate any input or information anyone might have about their experiences with touchpads on other brands of notebooks, especially current information. The quality of the touchpad if one of the most important considerations for me ! Do any other brands of notebooks have touchpads that are comparable in quality to the Thinkpad Ultranav ones ?

[archer6]

Also -- not all touchpads are created equal. The Thinkpad Ultranav touchpad is GREAT -- I think it's a Synaptics, correct me if I'm wrong. I've used touchpads on some other computers, for example the Alps pads on all of the current Dell notebooks, and they are TERRIBLE ; it's not a software issue, it's the touchpad itself, which just doesn't give the precise, reliable, responsive experience you get with the Ultranav touchpad.

I'd appreciate any input or information anyone might have about their experiences with touchpads on other brands of notebooks,

Do any other brands of notebooks have touchpads that are comparable in quality to the Thinkpad Ultranav ones ?

I agree with your statement regarding the "great" quality of the Ultranav touchpad. I find that even though they reduced the overall size of the touchpad as compared to the T4x series, the functionality is so accurate that the extra size is simply not needed.

Regarding your question on other brands I have tried nearly every other make out there past and present and absolutely no one provides a touchpad with the accuracy and ease of use that we enjoy on a ThinkPad. While I personally prefer the trackpoint, I like the touchpad for variety during periods of very lengthy computing.

[mj]

I got the drag and release to work like you explained. It selects an item to drag when I double tap, holding down my finger on the second tap, and releases the drag when I left go. It sounds like you must have the locking drags button checked under the touchpad properties, when you want to have it turned off for the automatic release.

Check your settings, here are mine

Mouse Properties
Buttons - turn on click lock
Ultranave settings
Touchpad settings
under tapping - tap and drag
tap again and hold and drag - on
locking drags - off