questionable build quality

[hnq]

Just wanted to know other people's experience.

I've had my t42p for about 1.5 years. In that time, I've had a tech to my house 7 times (he's coming back tomorrow, making it and i've sent it in for depot repair once. Maybe it's just me - but this seems a bit excessive?! The repairs were all pretty important - fan died, titanium lcd hinge broke (wtf?), bad motherboard, etc. The thing is - I take VERY good care of it. I only use it on a hard flat surface. I don't eat or drink near it. I never put anything on top of it - no matter how light. In other words, I treat it very gently - and still have all these issues.

I've owned 2 other laptops in the past, different brands. The first one worked without fail for 1.5 years before it was stolen. The second one has worked fine for the past 6 years - and only needed 1 repair (when my wife dropped it).

Fortunately, I bought the extended warranty with on site service - otherwise I'd be hosed (I use it to make a living). I had thought that IBM's were top of the line... although the repair service is good, it's still quite annoying. Also, the IBM repair tech has mentioned that he sees a lot of repeat customers (for repairs)... Someone please tell me that mine is a lemon and the you've never had any repair work done on your laptop...

[lithium726]

Sounds like you have a lemon...

I have a T23 that has never needed repairs, and my T40 has only needed a system board replacement... but that one was kinda my fault so i dont blame it on the system.

how in the hell would hte hinge break if you treat it like you say?

[christopher_wolf]

OK, yours is a Lemon

Well, at this point, if they are still coming to fix your system...You should be able to say that "Look, if it happens one more time, I would like a new Thinkpad or credit to a new Thinkpad." As they do seem willing and able to fix it under the terms of the warranty and on-site service.

Of all the Thinkpads I have owned, I have only had to call in maybe 5 times; and never did anyone say that it had to be shipped off to a repair center for a new mobo or whatnot.

[hnq]

Will they really replace the laptop? I've mentioned my unhappiness with the number of repairs to the escalation dept (there were 3 different screw ups on getting my last problem fixed) and they didn't offer to do anything...

I have no clue how the hinge broke - that's part of the 'wtf'. We noticed it when the tech was removing screws and saw that the 2 screws that go into the hinge were free floating (by the way, I only carry the laptop by the base - never by the lcd). I don't think that my wife did it as she doesn't really like using it - i'm too picky about how it's treated...

At this point, I've had so many items replaced that i might as well have a new laptop... :\ glad to hear that not all are like this...

[Michael1980]

Laptop quality has done down for everybody in the past 10 years as the competition intensified and oursourcing/cost cutting became the norm. But IBML still is one of the better laptop out there.

Just had a look at my 386 lappy, wow, the build quality is sensational. Like a tank and not one scratch on the plastic (!).

[underclocker]

Definitely excessive. I'd try to escalate and push for a replacement if one more thing goes wrong. I had an R40 and after three successive fix attempts was swapped an R51.

You're lucky to have the 3 year on-site. We're all lucky IBM's warranties are not too costly.

Good luck.

[chubes]

That is indeed quite excessive. I've had a T42p since last summer (May 2005) and have had no problems whatsoever. This thing takes quite a lot of abuse in my backpack going from work to school.

It's quite honestly one of the nicest thinkpads I've ever owned. Superior to my first thinkpad -- a T30, in every way.

Hope you get your problems resolved.

[Kyocera]

Who else is using your laptop?

[hnq]

I'm the only one using the laptop - it's either with me or locked away...

By the way, I had the tech over today to replace the broken hinge. The bad news is that he didn't put the LCD back together correctly. It's off center and there are now dark spots on the right hand side, extending about 4 inches across the screen. The tech said that he's done all that he could do - that I needed to have the LCD replaced... So, another service call to have a DIFFERENT tech come out on Monday to replace the LCD...

I mentioned my unhappiness at the number of service calls to IBM support - and they just brushed it off and kept going with the new ticket...
I've had the tech here 3 times this week and another visit is scheduled on Monday. It's gotten to the point that my dog doesn't even bark at him any more.

What else could go wrong? I've had (or will have) the following items replaced: motherboard, fan, LCD, hinge, electrical socket, keyboard (the J key stopped working)...

As for the 3 years on site... Yes, I am fortunate that I bought it - though each time I deal with tech support, I lose at least 1 hour of work time. Today, I lost my entire morning - waiting for the tech to take apart the entire thing to replace a hinge. All of this downtime is getting expensive. I'm thinking about pushing for a credit and getting an updated laptop - do you think that I have a good shot at this?

[underclocker]

Crazy and unfortunate.

You raise a good point about on-site, it's not much better than depot because it take more of your time! Also, I have used it a couple of times, and I would have preferred not seeing how they handle sensitive internal computer components. Yikes! No grounding strap, just man-handling everything. It's amazing anything worked again. I'd rather send to depot and just not know.

P.S. You deserve a new machine.

[christopher_wolf]

Crazy and unfortunate.

You raise a good point about on-site, it's not much better than depot because it take more of your time! Also, I have used it a couple of times, and I would have preferred not seeing how they handle sensitive internal computer components. Yikes! No grounding strap, just man-handling everything. It's amazing anything worked again. I'd rather send to depot and just not know.

P.S. You deserve a new machine.

Crazy techs

Why, in my neck of the woods, wrist grounding straps are a fashion accessory! They aren't *just* for hardware work anymore.

[o1001010]

if the tech says that most of the people he sees are repeat customers, that means only a few lemon thinkpads out there needs constant repair. and since the tech put in new parts, they must have a common denominator, probably heat?

[w0qj]

I've had my T42s (2373-K5H) also for 18 mths now, and had no problems with it, despite daily commuting between home/office with it.
(also did bang it on the ground inside my bag once or twice).

Guess there are lemons once in a while out there, for all brands like... unfortunately...

[Kyocera]

w0qj:

I've had my T42s (2373-K5H) also for 18 mths now, and had no problems with it, despite daily commuting between home/office with it.
(also did bang it on the ground inside my bag once or twice).

Guess there are lemons once in a while out there, for all brands like... unfortunately...

Yes, same here, dropped mine on the ground once, and still runs like a champ.

[sugo]

Getting a solid machine can be a lucky draw. I have my T42 as my main computer for 20 months. No repair record so far.

[hnq]

just had a thought... There is another common denominator to the fact that the tech sees a lot of repeat customers - the tech himself. I don't have anything against the guy - he's actually quite nice and amiable. Also, it wasn't very comforting when he mentioned in conversation (i.e. during my probing) that he has been fixing laptops for less than 1 year and that he has never attended any training course - that all of his training has been on the job... Watching him scratch his head while trying to figure out how to take the thing apart was very nerve wracking.

I've requested a different tech to put in the replacement LCD. The tech I saw today actually recommended this other tech as someone who had a lot more experience. I hope that he's right - otherwise I'm going to be really ticked! Too bad he didn't take my suggestion to call this other tech before he ruined my LCD.

[rosemarycane]

Hi,
I had similar issues with tech support myself. My T43 was at the depot at least 5 times in the span of three months. I did what someone else suggested I do, email Sam Palmisano. Here is the link:
https://www.ibm.com/cgi-bin/email-sjp.pl

After emailing him, I received a call at work the next day. They sent me a box, and had IBM/Lenovo's personal techs look at my machine. Not only did they fix the problem, they gave me a free battery for my troubles. It is worth a shot.

Let me know what happens,

Sean

[Kyocera]

Tech bashing threads are moved to off topic.

[lophiomys]

@hnq
IMHO you deserve a new laptop - especially if it is a lemon,
not the tech man but his supervising manager should have taken responsibility for a poorly performing premium product,
... a T42p + 3Y on-site-warranty is NOT cheap at all.

If this specific T42p with 7 repairs is a lemon,
it should have been easy for QA to track it down
and for QR to re-establish customer satisfaction.
They have computer systems with databases to get to this information easily!

But hnq reported customer relations officers
"shrugging off" substantial complaints
and poorly trained tech personal on the customer site.
To what kind of conclusions does this lead you?
So, is it bad management OR too many lemons?

What about opening a complaint with IBM/Lenovo customer care.
I had to do it once, and after a few months and contacting a
customer protection organization, they started to respond to
my complaint in a serious manner.

BTW:
hnq you mentioned having a dog: just don't feed it for a day or two before
the un-wellcomed tech is due to call, and the sneak a fresh sandwich (or
even better a "Wurstsemmel", cf. the famous Austrian "Kommisar Rex" TV series)
into his tool box. I'm convinced the poor tech person would do his best,
never to have to return again.

So long...

[hnq]

I personally think that the quality of care had gone down since the sale to Lenovo. For example, I wanted to buy a harddrive caddy that would fit into my CD ultrabay slot. I called sales - and they didn't know which caddy would fit, so they transferred me to hardware tech support. Hardware tech support recommended a caddy that I KNEW wouldn't work - and they didn't stop insisting on it until I pulled up the specs that stated that it would NOT work with a t42p. They put me on hold for 1/2 and hour - and at my request - called me back 1.5 hours later with the information of the right caddy and what they think is the right drive to go with the caddy.

In my mind, it's ludicrous that it took 2 hours + for them to figure out the correct 2nd drive caddy and the type of drive it took... My previous experiences with them were totally different...

The tech mentioned that he wasn't even trained on PC's (his background was copiers) - that just prior to IBM selling the dept that handles field techs, they required that all field techs start fixing laptops - regardless of their training or background. IBM also did NOT provide ANY training to those techs - they were supposed to learn on the job.

I'm not quite sure whether a new laptop would be any better - all of the major components in this one will have already been replaced.

Given this experience, I'm really questioning whether my next work laptop will be an IBM or something else...

[archer6]

Tech bashing threads are moved to off topic.

Thanks..... I for one, see no point in attacks & condemnation

[vital-analitix]

if the tech says that most of the people he sees are repeat customers, that means only a few lemon thinkpads out there needs constant repair. and since the tech put in new parts, they must have a common denominator, probably heat?

I think you hit the nail on the head.

However I would go by my past experiences when I was in charge of the computer department of a polytechnic. Those were the days of 286's and 386's. Had done some years prior a stint in an electronics manufacturing shop in Quality Assurance and static damage was a hidden factor. (This is because static damage is not immediately observeable and often only shows up as a reduced life expectancy later on. There are extensive statistics on this subject.)

When I got to the Polytechnic there was one staff member who argued that as long as you knew what you were doing you did not need an antistatic wrist strap and he plainly refused to observe proper antistatic procedures. The other staff member, more junior, did observe the antistatic procedures.

I let it rest for a while and half a year later I assigned one floor of labs to be maintained by one member and another floor by the other member. Initially the repairs were about equal on both floors but over time the floor with the proper antistatic procedures being observed started to have a lot less repeat failures.

Since downtime during my present "work" can have severe repercusions I am now doing my own maintenance. And since starting to do this I have had no more failures.....

In addition I have heard from others involved in the same activities as myself that when they buy a machine and it has a failure within the 30 day return period they'll return the machine even if they are being told it is a simple fix. Similarly there are those that if a failure happens later and it gets fixed under warranty then they'll buy a new machine and sell the repaired one on eBay.

This is similar to what I have heard from a few guys when they were discussing digital camera's. There are professional photographers who do the same: Replace when an error occurs, don't want to have to work with a repaired camera and who knows when it will fail again - their livelyhood depends on it.

Marinus

[christopher_wolf]

I guess the old adage "If you want something done right, you have to do it yourself." still holds quite a bit of truth when it comes to reapiring complicated systems like computers.

For my personal T43, I try to do as much maintenance on it by myself to keep it clean running and viciously effective, Total HDD scrubs every week, dual-defragments with PerfectDisk each day through the entire HDD (both Online and Offline), and a total strip-down and cleaning of the internal components and fan every month or so and retightening and range-checking for all hinges and movable joints. As well as full PC-Doctor hardware tests, surface scans of all HDDs including drive I/O ops tests on the optical drives, and the occasional memtest for both the . During certain points in the day, it would also be good to look at the response of your system to a calibrated load (time it takes to open a program, times to open oft used files in oft used directories, etc) and note changes, if any; that is a good and quick way to spot a problem budding before it gets the chance to seriously threaten your work and data. Take care of your system and equipment, and it will take care of you.

As for the wriststrap; I would recommend anybody working with sensitive electronics to think of it as a "fashion accessory;" I hear they have some really nice ones now (nice colors really, wear two of them like they are bracelets). They have a purpose, use them in the form intended.

Static discharge can slowly destory memory modules and not be noticed for a good long while. The HP ze5170 I got had, *from the factory*, bad modules and I wouldn't have picked it up in day-to-day operations except for the occasional crashes, which got worse, were it not for running memtest on them.

[vital-analitix]

I think I was not totally clear in my previous post. It is my belief that there are not this kind of "lemon's" coming out of the factory: QA is too tight for that. I do believe that most of these problems are "service technician induced" who have the wrong perceptions on how they should do their work.

The first machine hardly had a problem (except me wearing it out), the second one proved to be a lemon until I took charge of replacing the parts myself (but it was bought "remanufactured" from a "reputable" reseller on eBay, have my own thoughts about that). I do not believe in coincidences.

However this has not turned me away from IBM / Lenovo thinkpads. I'll buy again but I will buy a machine with the shortest warranty (if a fault develops then it will be in the initial periods) and then just buy the parts as, and when, required. What it has done however is to turn me off from the repairs under warranty.

Marinus

[archer6]

What it has done however is to turn me off from the repairs under warranty.

Marinus

I'm with you on this point. It has been very frustrating to experience a decline in the technical expertise of the hardware warranty service. And I'm not speaking of the on-site, as that vendor in my opinion has relatively low standards. The particularly frustrating experience is when they send out a box, we ship it back and they fail to properly diagnose & repair the problem. In the past that was a rare problem, however in the last year or so it has become the norm in our experiences. While anyone can make mistakes (I certainly do) when it becomes frequent that is when I become concerned.

Here is specific example. We had connectivity issues with a T43, after countless calls and hours (literally) on the phone they asked us to return it for service. They returned it to us with a new system board. Same problem. No change. This was only one example of recent mistakes from Tech Support. To make matters worse, when they send the computer back to us, it's full of greasy fingerprints everywhere, even on the face of the display? This has occured several times. When we call in and report it, it seems to go ignored.

So this is not to unfairly condem them, just a fair and unbiased report from someone who is a very big advocate for the ThinkPad brand.

I am taking the wait and see approach and communicating with them in a positive yet direct fashion. Hopefully this is just a "blip on the radar screen" and will get resolved. Also as you mentioned, our ThinkPads are mission critical, especially mine since I'm constantly traveling. So I'm hoping that they will get things sorted out.