T60p replacement - Dell??!!

Message

Grifter · #1 Post by **Grifter** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:17 pm

For those of you unhappy with your purchase I suggest you checkout the new Dell D820 Latitude. It looks like Dell is positioning itself to take a bite out of the portable highend bulletproof workstation market - ThinkPads. A collegue came in with one on Monday, and I got to play with it for a couple of hours, while he sweated in a meeting. Fully loaded the D820 cost was about $2900, or about a grand less than my comparable T60p. The build quality was up there with mine, and it the palm rests didn't creak. Screen was wide angle and not quite as nice as my 15". About 10% more reflected glare on the Dell than my T60p. A little heavier and thicker, but built like a tank with a magnesium chassis. Full of the usual bundled software crap, and the keyboard , though not half bad, was not as good (none really are) as the T60p. The finger print reader was a nice touch and built into the touch pad.

Overall, I was very impressed. Oh and I think the graphics card was a 512mb nvidia, though I couldn't be sure.

Stefan Bruckel · #2 Post by **Stefan Bruckel** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:07 pm

Competiton at the high end is great for all of us! The more the better.

pundit · #3 Post by **pundit** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:13 pm

Grifter wrote:Overall, I was very impressed. Oh and I think the graphics card was a 512mb nvidia, though I couldn't be sure.

I'm almost ashamed to say that I was considering this, primarily because of the high end non-ATI video card in it. My only non-rational argument against it was "but it's a Dell".

Grifter · #4 Post by **Grifter** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:27 pm

Owning a ThinkPad is kind of like owning an older Aston Martin (not that I've ever owned one, but worked on them mechanically for restoration) incredible cars, amazingly engineered, let down by the subpar ancillary systems, which tend to function with a mind of their own. But if your well-off, you don't mind putting up the the quirks, beacuse, well, its an IBM ThinkPad... not a..a...Dell for christ's sake!

rocketman · #5 Post by **rocketman** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:27 pm

I configured a loaded Latitude D820 last week for quite a bit less than that when there was a $400 instant savings. Dual Core 2.16 processor, 512mb vram video card, 1900 x 1200 display resolution, 100gb 7200rpm hard drive etc..and it included a 3 year warranty with complete care coverage (spills, falls, accidents). The small business dept customer service is supposed to be way better than Dells home dept. It made me wonder why the high end T60p price is so over inflated.

Grifter · #6 Post by **Grifter** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:29 pm

Did you buy Rocketman?

rocketman · #7 Post by **rocketman** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:49 pm

Grifter wrote:Did you buy Rocketman?

Nope, for the first time I am on the fence about which laptop I want. I like the T60p for some things, the Apple MBP for some things (the ability to dual boot Windows XP and OS X is great) and the Dell Latitude D820 for some things. Actually the Dell seems very nice and I think it is a great and possibly better alternative to the T60p, and it is more configurable. It's great that you can choose which processor and video card you want without being limited to certain combinations like with the T60p. I'll decide soon but I'm not making a rash decision.

cj3209 · #8 Post by **cj3209** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:54 pm

rocketman wrote:I configured a loaded Latitude D820 last week for quite a bit less than that when there was a $400 instant savings. Dual Core 2.16 processor, 512mb vram video card, 1900 x 1200 display resolution, 100gb 7200rpm hard drive etc..and it included a 3 year warranty with complete care coverage (spills, falls, accidents). The small business dept customer service is supposed to be way better than Dells home dept. It made me wonder why the high end T60p price is so over inflated.

That is Dell's forte: option per option, spec per spec; they are superior in that price-wise, they seem to be good options vs. the t60p. But what people have learned is that there is more to a good notebook than just price and features: engineering, quality of construction, thoughtfulness of design, and service. IMHO, it's worth paying a little more for Thinkpad quality. I used to buy Dell latitudes/inspirons. Fine notebooks but when I tried out a Thinkpad, there was absolutely NO CONTEST. Keyboard, solidity of constructions, features, and service were superior to Dell. I haven't looked at Dell's offerings for two years. The ONLY notebook I recommend to friends and family is ThinkPad. No Dell, HP, Compaq, or Gateway.

darrenf · #9 Post by **darrenf** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:45 pm

Grifter wrote:Fully loaded the D820 cost was about $2900, or about a grand less than my comparable T60p.

You paid almost four grand for your thinkpad?!? How? The most expensive TP available is $3,599 retail (and who pays retail on a -p series). Add a second 1G stick of Lenovo RAM and you only add about $100.

Did you purchase warranties to the year 2050?

-darren

christopher_wolf · #10 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:03 pm

Main Problem: It's a Dell

I am not kidding, that is a serious issue. It is all very well and fine to go ahead and copy off the design of the T60, but they have little to go off of. The only reason that Dell is selling to the Business market is because they are cheap (both senses of the word), ez (i.e. not sophisticated), and quick (not too many impressive features, so they don't worry about much). That and massive production of such units as been their promary strategy, not necessarily support or durability. Dell simply doesn't have the reputation behind them to push the D280 into the position it needs to be in the Business market to compete significantly with the Thinkpads. They have little to no record in durability, robustness, and ease-of-maintenence; I have seen the use of non-standard parts in Dell systems and actual *standard* parts breaking them. As an example, I have two power bricks for my M60; same model, same everything. One will work, one will not charge the batteries. One will power the dock, which requires the same adaper as the M60, and one won't. Even worse, two more adapters I tried on it had the *exact* same behaviour. It couldn't be explained by Dell or anybody else for that matter.

I am not going to trust a Dell laptop to last more than 3 years under the same conditions to which all my Thinkpads have been exposed to. That is simply not what Dell laptops are designed for, it doesn't make them money quickly; it may even actually hurt them because, if somebody has a laptop that has been working fine for 2+ years, why would they want to buy yet *another* one when the firsts still suits their needs? Dell doesn't see any immediate benefit to them in that. It is simply too much to expect of Dell.

From what I have seen, Dell's strategy seems to be based off the phrase "that is good enough." True, that is what most engineering is based off of...but not in the case of a Thinkpad vs. a Dell. The direction taken by the engineers at IBM/Lenovo is different than that taken by whoever designs Dell laptops.

Regardless, I am sure that these people will find something to complain about; See http://www.ihatedell.net/

a31pguy · #11 Post by **a31pguy** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:25 pm

Dell? Never again. <EOM>

ajb · #12 Post by **ajb** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 9:10 am

Agreed re: the comments on Dell laptops. I've owned three of them in the past, and they ALL had problems after 18 months. One of the really annoying things is that the keyboards crap out regularly. They're ok machines, but are not in any way built to the same standards as a ThinkPad. My local computer guru resells several makes as factory re-furbs... lots and lots of Dells on his shelves, but almost no ThinkPads... ask him why and he'll tell you ThinkPads are built to last for business users.

ajb

Talon88 · #13 Post by **Talon88** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 9:46 am

:::

No Dell. One of the worst NB in the market.
If you give me a DELL, I will sell it right the way,
I feel shame if I bring a DELL as a knowledgeable user
on the road.

:::

Greg Gebhardt · #14 Post by **Greg Gebhardt** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 2:08 pm

I owned one Dell and returned it twice for service problems. My friend owns a Dell and he is not so happy.

beeblebrox · #15 Post by **beeblebrox** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 3:21 pm

christopher_wolf wrote:Main Problem: It's a Dell

I am not kidding, that is a serious issue. It is all very well and fine to go ahead and copy off the design of the T60, but they have little to go off of. The only reason that Dell is selling to the Business market is because they are cheap (both senses of the word), ez (i.e. not sophisticated), and quick (not too many impressive features, so they don't worry about much). That and massive production of such units as been their promary strategy, not necessarily support or durability. Dell simply doesn't have the reputation behind them to push the D280 into the position it needs to be in the Business market to compete significantly with the Thinkpads. They have little to no record in durability, robustness, and ease-of-maintenence; I have seen the use of non-standard parts in Dell systems and actual *standard* parts breaking them. As an example, I have two power bricks for my M60; same model, same everything. One will work, one will not charge the batteries. One will power the dock, which requires the same adaper as the M60, and one won't. Even worse, two more adapters I tried on it had the *exact* same behaviour. It couldn't be explained by Dell or anybody else for that matter.

I am not going to trust a Dell laptop to last more than 3 years under the same conditions to which all my Thinkpads have been exposed to. That is simply not what Dell laptops are designed for, it doesn't make them money quickly; it may even actually hurt them because, if somebody has a laptop that has been working fine for 2+ years, why would they want to buy yet *another* one when the firsts still suits their needs? Dell doesn't see any immediate benefit to them in that. It is simply too much to expect of Dell.

From what I have seen, Dell's strategy seems to be based off the phrase "that is good enough." True, that is what most engineering is based off of...but not in the case of a Thinkpad vs. a Dell. The direction taken by the engineers at IBM/Lenovo is different than that taken by whoever designs Dell laptops.

Regardless, I am sure that these people will find something to complain about; See http://www.ihatedell.net/

You seem to forget, that fiscal depreciation is usually 3 years in acounting matters. So after 3 years, the computers are written off completely and are replaced with new ones.
Don't you wonder, why there always is an option for a 3 year warranty? It is accounting related.

Why, on earth, do you think there are always peak seasons on eBay when thousands of Dells or IBMs, or HP are sold at the same time. Those machines are mostly always 3 years +/- 2 months old and dumped.
Dell, like HP like IBM, has separate customer service contracts. Noone in the compay cares about the notebooks. They break? call CIO support and you get a replacement within a few hours, while your notebook is being serviced.
So, nobody cares about long-term durability of a notebook. There are no long-term notebooks.

Dell is by far the largest supplier to corporate America and governments. You are totally off with reputation. Those machines sell by the millions. A few broken Dells are just statistical noise in the mass of millions.
Governments and companies are usually restricted by law to buy the cheapest offer within an equivalent performance ratio.
Dell might have cheaper built notebooks, but they are a far better company than any other computer manufacturer. Proof? They have been the most profitable computer company on earth. Compaq went bust, IBM PC Division went bust.

Having said that, I prefer a Thinkpad over a Dell any time. But, folks, stop writing such a nonsense about industrial reputation, etc.
Having said that, all and every ThinkPad that I bought privately was broken when I unpacked it from the box and each and every Thinkpad had to go to service for at least 3 times. My latest T40p has seen IBM 4 times already, in 19 months. My friend's business Dell is rock solid...

rocketman · #16 Post by **rocketman** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 3:31 pm

I'm in agreement with the above post, I kinda get a chuckle out of reading the "Dell sucks, don't buy a Dell posts. I have plenty of friends who have Dell laptops, some are 5 years and older and still going strong. I'm not surprised considering this is a site all about Thinkpads, it reminds me of the Apple centric sites. Thinkpads might very well be built a little better (I'm certainly not sure that they are) but for there to be about a $1000 difference in price between a T60p and a Latitude D820 with even better specs is kind of ridiculous. I guess it makes high end Thinkpad owners feel like they belong to an exclusive club which is fine if thats what makes you happy.

#17 Post by **archer6** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 3:38 pm

rocketman wrote:I'm in agreement with the above post, I kinda get a chuckle out of reading the "Dell sucks, don't buy a Dell posts. I have plenty of friends who have Dell laptops, some are 5 years and older and still going strong. I'm not surprised considering this is a site all about Thinkpads, it reminds me of the Apple centric sites. Thinkpads might very well be built a little better (I'm certainly not sure that they are) but for there to be about a $1000 difference in price between a T60p and a Latitude D820 with even better specs is kind of ridiculous. I guess it makes high end Thinkpad owners feel like they belong to an exclusive club which is fine if thats what makes you happy.

Very well said!
My "Previous" ThinkPads were terrific.
My "Current" ThinkPads are a mixed bag and I'm very unhappy.

#18 Post by **K. Eng** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 6:19 pm

I agree with rocketman. A computer design stands or falls on its own merits, not the nameplate on the cover.

I've owned 3 Dell systems in the past. The first, an XPS T450 desktop from 1999, is still running strong. The second, a Dell Latitude CPi, was a creaky junker, but had a great keyboard and never let me down. The third was a Latitude D600 which I returned due to an utterly terrible keyboard. Never had a reliability problem with Dell.

My ThinkPad T40 on the other hand had an excellent keyboard, but broke at least once a year. Sometimes you get a lemon, sometimes you don't.

The D820 looks like a nice computer. However, as I have not seen one in person and compared it side by side with the T60p, I must reserve judgment on which computer is better.

rocketman wrote:I'm in agreement with the above post, I kinda get a chuckle out of reading the "Dell sucks, don't buy a Dell posts. I have plenty of friends who have Dell laptops, some are 5 years and older and still going strong.

Ujeni.net · #19 Post by **Ujeni.net** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 6:23 pm

Brand loyalty often leads to blind decisions.

Lets get one of these dells next to a t60p and see which one is better in speed, GPU, weight, battery life, toughness, service quality and whatever else we can think of.

dxben · #20 Post by **dxben** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:07 am

Wow, the 512MB NV120M Gfx from NVidia, well that is one hell of an incentive. I was just about to place my order for the T60p 2007-83U..

[censored].. This is what I mean about having the best performing gfx possible. I don't know why Thinkpads still are limited to 256MB of Ram on a supposed workstation class chip..

dxben · #21 Post by **dxben** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:16 am

On second thought it appears the NV120 has a narrower memory bus than the ATI 5200 (x1600), so I am not sure that it will out perform, despite the increased memory. would need to see a side by side comparison.

Kamika007z · #22 Post by **Kamika007z** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:14 am

Hey all,

I just got in my T60p with the V5200 FireGL and when I go to the advanced button under display properties, then adapter, my machine reports 512MB of memory. I looked elsewhere and the same is reported as well. When I get home from work, I'll try to post a ss.

Thanks

dxben · #23 Post by **dxben** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:16 am

Kamika007z wrote:Hey all,

I just got in my T60p with the V5200 FireGL and when I go to the advanced button under display properties, then adapter, my machine reports 512MB of memory. I looked elsewhere and the same is reported as well. When I get home from work, I'll try to post a ss.

Thanks

I am not certain but I believe it might be using 256MB of system memory, and reporting it as part of all its memory, even though it won't touch that until it maxes out.

It would be odd though for it to report this as part of its available memory, usually this happens at the driver level. tell us what you find when you run it later..

Kamika007z · #24 Post by **Kamika007z** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:41 am

Sorry, could you elaborate? I'm not able to fully understand what you mean. What memory is it using? System memory?

Thanks

lithium726 · #25 Post by **lithium726** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:26 am

Yeah, that's ATI's hypermemory at work.

kwramm · #26 Post by **kwramm** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:34 am

the video card has 256 mb dedicated vram on its own which is fast. When it needs more than that, it can get another 256 mb from your slower system memory, if enough of it is available. Totalling in 512mb. This vram extension on cost of your main memory is called Hypermemory by ATI. I believe nVidia has a similar technology available.

Kamika007z · #27 Post by **Kamika007z** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:06 am

So does it show 512MB always or 256MB and if needed, call the extra 256 and show that when appropriate?

Thanks

kwramm · #28 Post by **kwramm** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:54 am

theoretically the card should only use the main memory when it runs out of conventional vram. Would be interesting if someone can verify, but I guess a look at the memory allocation in the task manager should answer this. It should be easy to see if 256 mb are missing or not.

The windows displayed vram is just windows asking "how much ram can you have at maximum" and the video card answers 512. I wouldn't read anything at all into this value as it is probably polled from the driver and has nothing to do with what is really going on inside your computer.

I used the "go-mobility" utility to install the latest Catalyst on my old Fujitsu notebook (there are no current drivers for this thing so I had to use this "hack") and it showed 64 mb vram when it just had 32 megs. Which leads me to the conclusion that windows in fact has no real clue and just takes its info from some static info in the drivers

dxben · #29 Post by **dxben** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 12:27 pm

yes, this info comes from the driver's capability flags. it doesn't mean that its using that ram.

furthermore, if you're programming the card, you can hint it what memory to use and stay completely within vram if you like.

eb23air · #30 Post by **eb23air** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 12:53 pm

This computer is bonkers. I had an 8200 and it was my favorite computer. This is so much nicer. This replaces everything. I might actually keep this laptop even when they mass produce diamond chipsets.

Chip-set. Chip-set. Doof!

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