Regarding Palladium/TCPA in T42p laptops.

[austin785]

TC / TCG / LaGrande / NGSCB / Longhorn / Palladium / TCPA

Do any of those exist in the current Thinkpad laptops?

I read this and it scared me a bit.

Don't particularly want anything like that in any computer I'll ever own.

Anyone clarify?

[meditate2001]

No, not yet. First they need the os to support it, and thats windows longhorn.
I am def. keeping the last "free" generation of computers...hopefully the t50 is still free of that [censored]...

[BillMorrow]

TC / TCG / LaGrande / NGSCB / Longhorn / Palladium / TCPA

Do any of those exist in the current Thinkpad laptops?

I read this and it scared me a bit.

Don't particularly want anything like that in any computer I'll ever own.

Anyone clarify?

so, make it clear to any hardware vendor that you will not buy hardware with the TCPA/Fritz, etc., chip..

but it looks like it will be a hard thing to find..
hardware with out a TCPA chip of some sort..
because the software won't run unless the chip is present..

hopefully linux will have matured to the point that it will keep us all free..

[drasnor]

I'm trying to understand the difference between the Embedded Security Subsystem (ESS) chip and the so-called Fritz chip the TCPA is pushing. Anyone here care to shed some light?

[BillMorrow]

have you read the dissertation (link on thinkpads.com) IRT this matter..?

so far, the security chip in ibm thinkpads and other ibm hardware is only for your security, not M$'s security..

however, as i understand it, all future OS's from M$ will not work without the chip..

further, software will also not work without the chip..

some years ago, i was given to understand that in the future, applications would be "metered" much like telephone service and electric utilities..

including the OS.. in this case M$ windows..

the plan was to make it impossible to use anything else and then charge on a per minute or per hour basis..

THAT is about all i know without reviewing what might be available now, on this subject..

[jdhurst]

I get concerned at what Palladium might bring. I have heard Microsoft say on more than one occassion that they will not invade our computers, but when push comes to shove, I do not believe them. I have read what I can (or at least what I am willing to read) and it does not give me comfort.

I am sure not willing to pay more for software by having it metered by the minute. Some vendors (Ipswitch and Tamosoft to name two) have already gotten excessively greedy with monstrous price increases in both product and support costs. I pay for every last bit of my software, and I am not prepared to line vendor pockets even more by metering. Metering is a vendor initiative to rape us - nothing more.

So I may be at the end of the road with computing.

My PC300PL (Windows 2000) purchased in 1999 continues to hum along. I put a Powerleap 1.4Ghz CPU upgrade in it to extend its life. My NetVista A30 replacement desktop is relatively new (1/1/2003) and my ThinkPad T41 is also quite new (1/1/2004). So I can keep these going for a while yet (even past the introduction of Longhorn) and keep computing on my terms.

I have several Linux Virtual Machines (RedHat 7.3 and 9; SuSE Linux 9.0 Pro; and Gentoo 2004 (won't run properly), and I am not yet ready to convert based on what I have seen. Certainly, there is no Linux variant for several pieces of important software (QuickBooks, for example). But the Linux day may yet come.

Treat your toys carefully people - you may want them to last for a very long time. ... JD Hurst

[monty cantsin]

hopefully linux will have matured to the point that it will keep us all free..

Yes, and hopefully also Apple as a corporate player will continue to go the alternative way and stay out of the TCG, although it may be lamented that they do already adhere to DRM and its pitfalls with their incredibly successful iTunes business, as we all know, of course:

http://msl1.mit.edu/furdlog/docs/nytime ... rinkle.pdf

Btw, here's a nice, down-to-earth German article on DRM, also touching the issues of Trusted Computing, all from a very practical point of view:

http://www.brandeins.de/home/inhalt_det ... 2257829970

[KillaByte]

I cannot understand the whole fuzz that is made around all these TCPA issues. Here in Germany this topic is so over-stretched by all these wannabe professional pc-magazines that I'm really starting to get sick if I hear anyone whining about the matter without truly knowing what the TPM for example really does (and more important: what it *doesn't* do).

The thing you all fear is what Microsoft's future OSes may bring. No chip ever to be present in your Thinkpad in the near future will hijack your machine or do anything you don't want it to. It takes the software / the OS to do so. Software-wise you got the choice - you don't want these nifty new features to be present in your future OS it can't hurt to look at the alternatives to Windows. If you then still want to go the Windows-way you actually don't have a choice - Windows (most probably) won't run without this special hardware gadgets present.

As you see - no matter what security-related hardware you got in your machine - you still got the choice. There's nothing to worry about, everything will be fine

[darkhelmet03]

The T41 has a TCPA chip (aka as IBM Security chip) that can be enabled within the BIOS! At least it does show up in my BIOS.

I am sure T42 (and even T40) has it as well...

[BillMorrow]

the german article is in.. well.. german..

so how about a translation of the main points..

[g79]

I'm trying to understand the difference between the Embedded Security Subsystem (ESS) chip and the so-called Fritz chip the TCPA is pushing. Anyone here care to shed some light?

The TCPA resources page at IBM research might be useful here...

http://www.research.ibm.com/gsal/tcpa/

Particularly this paper (7 pages):
http://www.research.ibm.com/gsal/tcpa/tcpa_rebuttal.pdf

It's a very interesting reading.

hope this helps
Gio

[BillMorrow]

I'm trying to understand the difference between the Embedded Security Subsystem (ESS) chip and the so-called Fritz chip the TCPA is pushing. Anyone here care to shed some light?

The TCPA resources page at IBM research might be useful here...

http://www.research.ibm.com/gsal/tcpa/

Particularly this paper (7 pages):
http://www.research.ibm.com/gsal/tcpa/tcpa_rebuttal.pdf

It's a very interesting reading.

hope this helps
Gio

lots of good reading..
and informative..
thanks for doing the "leg work"..

[drasnor]

have you read the dissertation (link on thinkpads.com) IRT this matter..?

No, I didn't see it. I first Google'd and didn't find anything useful right away, then searched the thinkpads.com forums (obviously the premiere resource on IBM ThinkPads ) and found this thread. Sorry if I revived a dead thread.

The TCPA resources page at IBM research might be useful here...

http://www.research.ibm.com/gsal/tcpa/

Particularly this paper (7 pages):
http://www.research.ibm.com/gsal/tcpa/tcpa_rebuttal.pdf

It's a very interesting reading.

hope this helps
Gio

Thanks for the information g79. The picture painted by the Anti-TCPA FAQ and Defcon-10 presentation is pretty bleak and I'm glad to hear most of that is speculation. However, IBM's rebuttal still does not adequately address the potential for abuse by Microsoft or abuse by any of the companies pushing DRM. It is one thing to say that possible future non-interoperable Office documents can be cracked, it is quite another to say how easily or how conveniently.

//BEGIN rant
I already have beef with the recording and movie industries over DRM: with the cost of movies and CD's being what it is, honestly who would want to keep the original CD's in their car waiting to be stolen or take their DVD's on the road with the risk of disk damage when they can keep their contents on a hard drive or burned to disposable CD-R's/DVD-R's? The more you handle your originals, the more likely you are to scratch or mar the disc. It makes much more sense just to use copies for everyday use and store the originals somewhere safe. I don't appreciate the labels making it more difficult for me to do this.
//END rant

[lfeagan]

No kidding about the whole originals getting damaged thing. I remember how even Matt Lauer (from NBC's Today show) complaining about how he had bought Shrek 10 times because his son keeps scratching up the DVD. This whole not being able to copy the medium stuff is ridiculous. Truth be known, I actually don't worry nearly as much as I used to about Palladium. I can build a computer from scratch that will do all I need to do. If it comes to the world falling apart we can start an underground movement and build our own machines and run our own BSD or *nix on them. In the end, the big companies behind all of this just don't like/aren't will to accept and adapt to change. They like to keep their old business models where they ship music to stores and charge exorbitant prices. Those days are over and all they can really do in the end is delay the inevitable.

There will always be places that will not conform to the rules of the majority. In that vacuum which is created where innovation can actually thrive will be the new power on the globe. As the old saying goes, history will repeat itself. The US came to the forefront by a series of blunders the British made in cracking down too hard on the US with things like taxation without representation among other things. Somehow the situation we are heading towards with "rights" management, software patents running amuck, and the general hegemony of corporations we are experiencing leads me to believe that the situation will get worse before it gets better, but that in the end as we continue along this path the US's place as the pre-eminent techology and development center will be lost to another nation, someplace more open to creative ideas being fostered and without the legal entanglements present in the US. So, fear not, just prepare to move!