Ghosting on T60 15" IPS screen

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ramian · #1 Post by **ramian** » Tue May 23, 2006 8:29 am

Since my Fujitsu E7010 died in February, I've been looking for a replacement which can actually be considered an upgrade from my E7010 in all aspects. Since the 2 most important criteria for my future notebook were brilliant screen and build quality, my choices were fairly quickly narrowed down to the 15" T60 with the SXGA screen and the new E8210 with the WSXGA+ screen. While I know that the 15" T60 will indeed be coming to where I live (Singapore) in about a weeks' time, I know that the high-res screen E8210 will never be coming here; and given that I'm not all that keen on buying overseas, I'm hoping the T60 satisfies all my requirements.

While I've yet to see a 15" IPS screen in action, I have seen the 14" T60 and the screen does look pitiful. The Fujitsu screen is in a whole different class of its own, this goes for my old E7010 screen as well as that on the new E8210. While I have never seen a 15" IPS screen before, I have heard that the screen quality can be considered to be on par with that on Fujitsu notebooks.

Now, down to why I made this thread...
I've read in a number of posts on these forums and on NBR that the 15" IPS screens on the T4x series suffered from a ghosting problem. I also understand about the problem with the shadow at the corners and I'm willing to overlook that if it is contained to only a small area. But ghosting would really be a deal breaker for me as I want to watch videos and play some occasional games on my future laptop. What I'd like to know is if such a ghosting phenomenon is also present on the T60 15" notebooks with SXGA resolution screens. I'm assuming here that all 15" screens with SXGA are IPS screens. If there is obvious ghosting, I'm going to have to convince myself to get a notebook from overseas without having looked at/touched it first.

Thanks!

#2 Post by **archer6** » Tue May 23, 2006 10:12 am

ramian wrote:What I'd like to know is if such a ghosting phenomenon is also present on the T60 15" notebooks with SXGA resolution screens. I'm assuming here that all 15" screens with SXGA are IPS screens. If there is obvious ghosting, I'm going to have to convince myself to get a notebook from overseas without having looked at/touched it first.

Thanks!

I have the SXGA+ 15" IPS and it's really beautiful. No ghosting whatsoever. When compared to a friends new Fujitsu, the ThinkPad display is much nicer. It's the first ThinkPad with this technology and in the case of video's it really stands out as a winner. You will not be dissappointed.

#3 Post by **RonS** » Tue May 23, 2006 11:52 am

I've seen many 15" IPS displays and have never seen ghosting.

Army Chief · #4 Post by **Army Chief** » Tue May 23, 2006 2:57 pm

Likewise; no ghosting issues whatsoever -- at least not in the practical sense. I do have to agree with the assessment that the 14.1" screen can be underwhelming, but I'm not sure that I've ever found a Fujitsu offering that was really comparable to any of the ThinkPads that I've owned. Nice machines, but not really in the same class IMO.

Chief

Puppy · #5 Post by **Puppy** » Tue May 23, 2006 3:10 pm

Ghosting is problem of every LCD. IPS technology has slower response time but better color representation and view angles. Scrolling text while reading it is a pain on LCDs in general. That's why I still prefer good old CRT.

There is also difference running the display on batteries and AC power, at least I noticed it on my R51.

ramian · #6 Post by **ramian** » Tue May 23, 2006 7:26 pm

Thanks for all your replies.

I think I can safely assume that the ghosting problem present on the older ThinkPads didn't make its way onto the T60s, which is ofcourse a good thing.

Just to be doubly sure, what would be the best way to check for ghosting before I buy it? I've never experienced ghosting on LCDs before and so not exactly sure what to look out for at the store. I'll be bring Dead Pixel Buddy to check for dead pixels; is there something quick I can do to ascertain any possibility of ghosting?

Thanks!

Roisin · #7 Post by **Roisin** » Tue May 23, 2006 7:52 pm

did you notice ghosting on your Fujitsu E7010? if not, chances are you wont be bothered by ghosting on a thinkpad, as i doubt it should ghost any worse. However all lcd panels ghost.

This is a good utility, to see ghosting in action: http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/pixperan.html

and this is what it looks like when you take a picture of it: http://www.lesnumeriques.com/duels.php? ... a2=52&ph=1

try running that pixperan cartoon car on any CRT vs _any_ LCD panel, and you will see that LCD panels still need to improve here quite a bit

JHEM · #8 Post by **JHEM** » Tue May 23, 2006 7:58 pm

ramian wrote:I think I can safely assume that the ghosting problem present on the older ThinkPads didn't make its way onto the T60s, which is ofcourse a good thing.

That's because it never existed!

I have an almost 5 year old A30p here that was the first IBM model with the 15" UXGA IPS display. It does not now, nor ever, display any "ghosts".

I've probably seen a hundred Thinkpad IPS displays in both 14.1" and 15" and have never noted any ghosting.

Regards,

James

ramian · #9 Post by **ramian** » Wed May 24, 2006 7:23 am

@Roisin,
Thanks for those links. They were indeed informative. After seeing what ghosting really is, I've never actually experienced it anywhere. I don't know if it's a good thing or not, but at least now I'm re-assured that I will still be happy with the Thinkpad's screen. I will still definitely be taking that utility along with me when I'm getting my notebook just to make sure...

@JHEM,
While I really can't exactly which threads I read about the ghosting problem on the 15" IPS screen in the T4X models, I did remember reading them. Perhaps, those few people were just unlucky to have gotten bad screens when they bought their Thinkpads. I will be testing out the notebook and will be on the lookout for dead pixels as well as any potential ghosting issue before I actually hand over my wallet.

Thanks once again ya'all. You've all been incredibly helpful and informative and I really appreciate it. I'll be getting my T60 in about a week's time (hopefully) and will try to come back here to share my experiences.

cheers!

Troels · #10 Post by **Troels** » Wed May 24, 2006 8:56 am

ghosting is a highly subjective matter. To me the 15" IPS has ghosting, and plenty of it, in white to cyan or red transisition, and grey to white. It's not apparent in 2d desktop use, unless you scroll a text sheet fast (I use Yap and TeXnicCenter which scrolls 1 pixel at a time).
In games it is very apparent. Try Trackmania Nations, shows a good deal of ghosting.

Nevertheless i don't get why people really goes as far to say that their 30-60ms IPS SXGA+ or UXGA doesn't ghost... when people who play a few games think 12 ms is too high

(exageration maybe)

astro · #11 Post by **astro** » Wed May 24, 2006 9:09 am

Troels wrote:Nevertheless i don't get why people really goes as far to say that their 30-60ms IPS SXGA+ or UXGA doesn't ghost... when people who play a few games think 12 ms is too high (exageration maybe)

Totally agree with your points.

And yes, 12ms is too high. The problem is the way LCD specs are measured and published. The published transition time is the fastest time for a specific transition (50% gray->white or 50% gray->black), not black->white. I play Counter-Strike on a BenQ 8ms panel, and it ghosts slightly compared to 75Hz (14ms) on my Samsung CRT.

The ghosting on my 14.1" SXGA+ is very obvious when I run dxdiag and run the DirectDraw tests. However, in normal use (office work), I don't notice it all.

JHEM · #12 Post by **JHEM** » Wed May 24, 2006 9:26 am

astro wrote:The ghosting on my 14.1" SXGA+ is very obvious when I run dxdiag and run the DirectDraw tests. However, in normal use (office work), I don't notice it all.

I would guess that this is the source of my failure to notice any ghosting, I don't game on my laptops.

Regards,

James

Hamid · #13 Post by **Hamid** » Wed May 24, 2006 2:03 pm

Ghosting is what is mostly observed by gamers, especially in FPS games.

T60 15" SXGA+ LCDs are from LG-Phillipes. I haven't been able to find exactly what LCD it is, but from what I remember all the 15" IPS SXGA LCDs from LG-Phillipes had a 25ms latency.

Pro games use either good CRTs or go for 2ms LCDs.

HTH,
Hamid

ramian · #14 Post by **ramian** » Thu May 25, 2006 12:32 am

Thanks for providing a different perspective. I've never played FPS games and so have probably never noticed the ghosting before. I did play Need for Speed Underground on my old Fujitsu but never noticed any ghosting. I'm not really much of a gamer anyway, just play the occasional RTS/RPG/racing game every now and then.

I'm assuming I won't really experience ghosting in such games.

How bad would the latency be on a 6 yr old ViewSonic CRT? If it's not worse than what I've got on my PC or my old Fujitsu, I'd probably not even notice it.

cheers!

astro · #15 Post by **astro** » Thu May 25, 2006 6:19 am

ramian wrote:How bad would the latency be on a 6 yr old ViewSonic CRT? If it's not worse than what I've got on my PC or my old Fujitsu, I'd probably not even notice it.

You shouldn't get any latency on your CRT, unless it is older than 10 yrs or something (maybe).

Hamid · #16 Post by **Hamid** » Thu May 25, 2006 9:08 am

You won't probably notice any latency issues on your CRTs. Old CRTs may have a problem with refresh rate at high resolutions.

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