NEW T60 Temperature Thread - Especially high GPU Temperature

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drblue · #1 Post by **drblue** » Tue May 23, 2006 4:12 pm

Hi,

I know this topic has been discussed many times in many different threads. But I thought this warrants further discussion for current and future owners of T60. Obviously, there are some issues with the T60 design as far as the temperature control (especially fan and GPU). I talked to a technician yesterday, and he admitted that there are some issues with T60 in this department.

In particular, the GPU temperature tends to get quite high--much higher than other components. The following is the data from my T60 after 2 hours of use.

CPU 44°C (0x78)
APS 32°C (0x79)
PCM 33°C (0x7a)
GPU 72°C (0x7b)
BAT 50°C (0x7c)
BAT 27°C (0x7e)
BUS 36°C (0xc0)
PCI 40°C (0xc1)
PWR 41°C (0xc2)

As you can see, GPU gets much hotter than any other components (22 C higher than the second highest component). This is unusual because my previous ThinkPad (T42p)'s GPU got only 7-10 C higher than other components EVEN WITH a higher-end video card.

The most direct effect of this is the continuous running of the cooling fan, which seems to annoy many people including myself. Also, this raises some questions about the reliability of the design.

I may have a faulty hardware or a problem. Can you guys confirm this is true for you? I have a T60 model with X1400 (128MB video ram).

Thanks.

sw-rick · #2 Post by **sw-rick** » Tue May 23, 2006 5:02 pm

Frankly speaking, I do not see the problem ...

When I have my TP Power Control set to Maximum Performance, my fan does indeed stay on most of the time, but the noise level is nothing to speak about. It seems to me that it is better to have an effective, stable and reliable ventilation of the system than to have some system that constantly turns on and off the fan continously and has a very high variation in fan speed.

Of course some of this is very subjective, but when I compare this to a few other notebooks I have used I find that many of them have some fan noise that simply sounds suspect, especially on the type where it will for sure stay quiet until it is almost red hot and then turn on the fan to max speed. It can actually be more irritating to have this happening than some constant low operation.

Also, I think there is a natural explanation for the X1400 GPU to be a bit hotter than the rest of the components as it is after all a sophisticated piece of hardware which is capable of doing a LOT of calculations and instructions. I am not a technician, but I do know Intel has received a lot of praise for their power efficiency design of the Celeron Solo/Duo design, so it may simply be better than the ATI chip in this appartment.

Just my 2 cents anyway ...

Rick

drblue · #3 Post by **drblue** » Tue May 23, 2006 5:34 pm

Hi sw-rick,

Thank you for your insightful comment. Yes, I agree with you that having an efficient, reliable cooling system is more important than fan noise. However, you are somewhat missing my point. My point is not only about the fan noise, but it is rather the overall design and efficiency of the machine.

I have had 9 different ThinkPads over the past 14 years, and had a few top-of-the-line mobile workstation models (Txp). But T60 has, by far, the most problems. So, the part of the things I am trying to do here is to make sure I don't have a lemon at my hand, and determine this is a common or normal issue (i.e., it is probably only me who has a hot GPU, in which case I have to replace/repair the machine).

Further, you may be right in that the GPU is hotter than other components because it is not as well-designed as Intel Duo or because it is busiest component. However, an efficient design should have taken that into account. For example, my fan runs at around 3200-3400rpm all the time because of the high GPU temperature (the GPU temperature stays at around 76-77). However, even when I decreased the fan speed to <2800rpm, the temperature does not go up a bit (still stays at around 76-77 after 6-7 hours). This indicates some inefficiency--the fan does not have to be run fast or run all the time.

Additionally, when I compared the temperature of the GPU of my T40, T42, and T60 (all of which have rather high-end graphic boards with 64 (T40)-128MB ram (T42 and T60)), only T60 has such a high temperature for the GPU. For example, in my T42, the GPU stays around 62-64 (only 10 higher than other components) . Again, you may be right that ATI's chips are not thermally good, but, should a good computer maker take that into account (as IBM has been)? I think ThinkPads have been good because IBM knew how to make a good balance between different aspects (e.g., performance, design, convenience, reliability, etc.). But, as far as I can see, the balance is being tipped.

Again, I don't want to initiate a debate. I simply want to know whether I have a lemon.

Thank you for your comments.

Best,
drblue

filter · #4 Post by **filter** » Tue May 23, 2006 5:48 pm

I had a T60P with the 5200 card. And with BIOS controlled settings the temperature would stay at under 60 degrees. At about 55 to 57. Although the fan was on most of the time and thus driving me insane. I sent it back.

astro · #5 Post by **astro** » Tue May 23, 2006 5:52 pm

Granted, perhaps the fan could be run at a slightly lower speed to achieve the same temperature. Perhaps this varies from machine-to-machine, so Lenovo erred on the side of caution and upped the speed a little.

I also remember a time (< 10 years ago) when desktop GPUs did not require their own separate fans. Then they did. Then they got bigger. Then they needed a two card slots to fit the card and the cooling. My point here is that the GPU wars are more fervent than they ever were and temperature seems to be left a little by the wayside, not the least because it will never go away. When Lenovo chooses to 'partner' with ATI for their GPUs, they choose to accept whatever operating temps ATI designs their chips with.

drblue · #6 Post by **drblue** » Tue May 23, 2006 7:12 pm

Hi Astro,

I TOTALLY agree. As the video card gets faster, the operating temperature goes up. That's very true. So, I understand your point. Because your point is very valid (so were the points made by sw-rick), I don't have any intention to rebutt your arguments or start a debate. I am simply asking questions to fellow board members to figure out whether I have a lemon or not.

Thus, I am simply curious if the unusually high GPU temp (compared to my prior machines) is due to a defective component. So, the intention of my original post was to seek feedback from others about their GPU temperature (especially those who have x1400). If others with x1400 have similar temp (72-77), I don't have a lemon, and this is really by design (which will help me decide whether I should send this back or not). I AM STILL INTEREST IN THE TEMPERATURE that others with x1400 experience.

Further, as filter said, his (or her) Radeon 5200 stayed at under 60 degrees. Radeon 5200 is actually a higher-end card (I may be wrong, but those are used for the higher-end T60p, so I assume they are), and the temp was lower than mine (72-77 with fan at 3200-3400rpm). Thus, if mine is not a lemon (and most x1400 cards indeed create more heat than 5200), this indicates that FASTER or higher-end cards don't have to necessarily run hotter (as 5200 generates less heat), which somewhat disapproves Astro's point.

After reading many posts here, I got an impression that those who have had many ThinkPads before tend to think T60 is not as good as earlier models. I also think T60 is not as good as T4x (especially T42--or 760 back in the 90s; it was THE King of laptops at that time). But I respect the opinions of others who think T60 is good because they may have different objectives and preferences.

Thank you for all your comments!!! I am still waiting for the temperature reports of others who have x1400.

quink · #7 Post by **quink** » Tue May 23, 2006 9:34 pm

I have a 2623D60 (x1300 gpu) and it runs hot. The gpu gets in teh 70's quite easily. I've just been using the machine for 10-20 minutes and turned it on max performance settings(running off ac power) and its at 65c. Going to play a video game for a bit and see how hot it gets. Measuring the temps using thinkpad fan control utility(just using it to check temps)

sw-rick · #8 Post by **sw-rick** » Wed May 24, 2006 1:36 am

astro wrote:Perhaps this varies from machine-to-machine, so Lenovo erred on the side of caution and upped the speed a little.

I think you nailed it here, my TP came with a 5400 rmp disk and after changing it to a 7200 rmp the fan seems to have kept the same frequency and speed (but with general use the disk has the same temperature as the original one). Maybe they are simply trying to be on the safe side of things.

I will check the temps on my TP later today and report back.

Rick

filter · #9 Post by **filter** » Wed May 24, 2006 2:31 am

Drblue:
If you idle at 70 degrees you definetly have a lemon and should call IBM.

darrenf · #10 Post by **darrenf** » Wed May 24, 2006 9:15 am

filter wrote:Drblue:
If you idle at 70 degrees you definetly have a lemon and should call IBM.

Or he may not be using PowerPlay.

-darren

heiss · #11 Post by **heiss** » Wed May 24, 2006 10:37 am

darrenf wrote:
filter wrote:Drblue:
If you idle at 70 degrees you definetly have a lemon and should call IBM.
Or he may not be using PowerPlay.

-darren

What is Powerplay, though? You don't mean power management, do you? Sorry for such a dumb question but please enlighten me.

kimx · #12 Post by **kimx** » Wed May 24, 2006 10:44 am

Powerplay is a part of the ati driver, which is able to turn down your graphics card to save power and disperse less heat.

Open the ati catalyst control center, under "view" chose "advanced view", then select power play

Just a note if you want to change the powerplay option for being plugged in, that option changes along with the chosen power manager scheme. And all the schemes tha tyou create yourself has powerplay set to optimal performance while pluged in.

drblue · #13 Post by **drblue** » Wed May 24, 2006 11:54 am

Thank you for all your comments. I enabled "PowerPlay." I even experimented with the setting by changing PowerPlay to "Battery Optimized." This, in theory, should reduce the operating temperature, but I don't really see much difference. The temp is always somewhere between 72-77. It is currently at 74 while the machine is not doing anything (except typing this).

Filter's comment made me concerned--he noted that I definitely have a defective GPU if the temperature is always in 70s. I trust his comment, yet I don't want to

It is such a hassle to get it fixed. It is also possible that Lenovo does not see this as an issue, and refuses to fix it (or don't do anything).

Can anyone else confirm with the temperature of the GPU? Especially those with X1400.

#14 Post by **RonS** » Wed May 24, 2006 12:10 pm

My T60p idles at around 70C as well (as reported by Fan Control). I checked two other T60p machines and they also hover around 70C while idling. I've suffered no ill effects, and my fan is just barely audible.

kimx · #15 Post by **kimx** » Wed May 24, 2006 12:36 pm

I have a x1400, and my idles around 67-68 C.

EDIT:

I forgot to mention that if you install the x1400 update from windows update, powerplay doesn't work at all.

You can use the program atitool to chech wether or not power play has been enabled.

darrenf · #16 Post by **darrenf** » Wed May 24, 2006 12:40 pm

drblue, does the PowerPlay page in CCC report that "battery optimized" is indeed engaged? I have found that CCC doesn't always change the active setting when it should.

Also, have you run your tests on battery to see if there is a difference?

-darren

darrenf · #17 Post by **darrenf** » Wed May 24, 2006 12:43 pm

FYI: My V5200 runs at 58C on "battery optimized." This is while running on battery. I don't run while connected to AC often so I don't know if the temp is different on AC. I seem to remember that it runs around 70C on max performance. When I OC it I've had it over 105C.

-darren

viper11885 · #18 Post by **viper11885** » Wed May 24, 2006 5:50 pm

On light usage, my x1300 hovers around 54 celcius.

bibo · #19 Post by **bibo** » Wed May 24, 2006 7:18 pm

I have a T60 with x1400 video card. The GPU stays around 64-67 while idling and about 79 while playing games. Fan speed is always between 3200-3400rpm. Although the temperature of GPU is pretty high, the wind blowed out from the vent is not very hot. I guess the cooling system is not very efficient. It is interesting to see filter's 5200 card stay under 60 degree. If I turn my GPU to optimal battery life, the temperature will still stay above 60 degree. Does that mean that T60p has a different cooling system design or that I have a lemon too?

drblue · #20 Post by **drblue** » Wed May 24, 2006 7:25 pm

Thank you for all your input. They have been very helpful. It appears there is quite a wide variance in the GPU temp. I consistently get 72C (on battery) to 74-77C (on AC) while other get substantially lower temp (~65C). But at the same time, some others reported similarly high temps (>70C). This is confusing, and may mean one of the following two things: (1) Lenovo's quality control is bad (or ATI's), and there is a wide variance in the quality/temp of the GPU, or (2) I have a lemon (but this is not very likely as others also reported high temp).

Also, while I am experimenting with all these, I found a strange fan behavior. When I set the Power setting to "high performance," the fan speed actually drops to 3200rpm while the speed goes up (to 3800-3900rpm) when I change the power setting to something else (e.g., "ThinkPad default"). I found this to be very strange because it should be the other way around. All these make me believe that the thermal design of T60 is indeed faulty (or sub-optimal at least).

I am going to call the tech support, and see what they have to say.

Thank you all.

heiss · #21 Post by **heiss** » Wed May 24, 2006 8:49 pm

ambient temperature also should be considered. They influence a lot. When I use mine in a cool library (70F) my 1300x runs at mid 50s but in my home (85-90F) it easily gets above 60s.

astro · #22 Post by **astro** » Wed May 24, 2006 10:41 pm

kimx wrote:You can use the program atitool to chech wether or not power play has been enabled.

Really? I just installed ATITool and I can't seem to find where it tells you this.

kimx · #23 Post by **kimx** » Thu May 25, 2006 2:39 am

astro wrote:
kimx wrote:You can use the program atitool to chech wether or not power play has been enabled.
Really? I just installed ATITool and I can't seem to find where it tells you this.

I just use atitool to look at the clock frequencies, then it's very clear to see if powerplay is on or not.

astro · #24 Post by **astro** » Thu May 25, 2006 6:29 am

kimx wrote:I just use atitool to look at the clock frequencies, then it's very clear to see if powerplay is on or not.

Ah, ok -- I did notice that the 3D view dropped to about 1/2 speed when I pulled out the AC adaptor. I guess this means that the powerplay is working (though it could just mean that the CPU freq has halved?).

drblue · #25 Post by **drblue** » Thu May 25, 2006 7:11 pm

Latest Information:

I talked to THREE tech support people at Lenovo. They had different theories.

1st person: The constant-on fan is by design. Some T60s are, by design, supposed to run the fan all the time.

2nd person: Some Z60s are supposed to run the fan all the time, but NOT T60s. He said, "if your T60 is running the fan all the time, that is defective."

3rd person: The fan on a T60 should NOT run all the time. That does not make sense because that is a very, very bad design for a laptop (battery draining). T60 is the flagship laptop, and it is NOT supposed to do that. You have a lemon. Return it.

Faced with these contradictory theories, I struggled to decided whether I should send it for service (or even return or exchange). Our internal tech support also said that the fan should NOT run all the time (that is simply a bad design because it drains battery, and is not likely to be that way).

So, I've sent mine for a repair because exchange is so painful (new software/data setup).

I will let you know how it goes after a week once I get it back. For those who have been struggling with this issue, you may also consider sending it back.

astro · #26 Post by **astro** » Thu May 25, 2006 8:33 pm

drblue wrote:1st person: The constant-on fan is by design. Some T60s are, by design, supposed to run the fan all the time.

2nd person: Some Z60s are supposed to run the fan all the time, but NOT T60s. He said, "if your T60 is running the fan all the time, that is defective."

3rd person: The fan on a T60 should NOT run all the time. That does not make sense because that is a very, very bad design for a laptop (battery draining). T60 is the flagship laptop, and it is NOT supposed to do that. You have a lemon. Return it.

With all due respect -- I fail to see how these 'techs' are qualified to comment on what is good and bad notebook thermal design. Do they actually know how much benefit there is to be gained from not having the fan on? I have a feeling that the fan's power consumption is tiny in comparison to the LCD, CPU and GPU...

Anyway, I believe the first guy, but if the 'techs' are willing to admit that there's a fault, then by all means, take them up on their offer to fix it.

darrenf · #27 Post by **darrenf** » Thu May 25, 2006 8:45 pm

FWIW, the fan on my T60p doesn't seem to take a noticable amount of power. It also seems to be on every time I put my ear up to the vent, but I rarely hear it.

-darren

astro · #28 Post by **astro** » Thu May 25, 2006 9:01 pm

Oh, I should mention that I installed TPFanControl today and here are my readings (my machine is a 2007-63U with X1400):

CPU 44°C (0x78)
APS 36°C (0x79)
PCM 36°C (0x7a)
GPU 64°C (0x7b)
BAT 50°C (0x7c)
BAT 29°C (0x7e)
BUS 36°C (0xc0)
PCI 43°C (0xc1)
PWR 44°C (0xc2)

The ambient office temperature is about 22°C.

When I set to "Optimize fan control to: Maximize performance" in the Power Manager, the fan turns off sometimes.

drblue · #29 Post by **drblue** » Thu May 25, 2006 9:01 pm

FWIW, the fan on my T60p doesn't seem to take a noticable amount of power. It also seems to be on every time I put my ear up to the vent, but I rarely hear it.

This is exactly the part of the problem. You noted that you rarely hear it (unless you put your ear next to it). That is probably because the fan is running at a lower speed (or your fan being a better quality or whatever). When my fan is at a lower speed (<2,900rpm), it is not loud. But my point is that the fan is always at a higher speed (>3,400rpm). My home office is an open loft on the top of my main bedroom (the entire room is about 500SQ), and my wife can hear the fan operation from her bed (about 25 feet away; 7 feet below). My wife is no Bionicwoman, so this shows the noise is not a trivial issue.

Further, the sensitivity to noise depends on the person. I read a lot of comments like "it does not bother me, etc." (By the way, Darren, I am NOT refering to your comment, so don't be offended). I don't see the point of these comments. One cannot impose his/her level of sensitivity to others. I strongly believe we should respect others' personal taste and preference--that is not something you can influence. Some likes blonde, and others like brunette.

With all due respect -- I fail to see how these 'techs' are qualified to comment on what is good and bad notebook thermal design. Do they actually know how much benefit there is to be gained from not having the fan on? I have a feeling that the fan's power consumption is tiny in comparison to the LCD, CPU and GPU...

Astro seems to believe that those of us who are complaining about the fan being always on are not logical. Then, let me ask you a question. A very simple question:

"Would you prefer your fan to be always on or not?"

You may not care. However, I bet your answer is "no fan" as far as your laptop is cooled properly. If there is a choice in design that can allow only interval fan activity, it is a much better design in my humble opinion.

It is hard to imagine that one would like his/her fan on all the time even if he/she is not sensitive to noise (and don't care). There is no benefit to be gain from fan being always on as far as the laptop is cooled appropriately.

More importantly, as others reported in this (and other) threads, not all T60s have continuous fan activities (even those with higher-end graphic cards). Also, Lenovo tech people (even though you believe they are not qualified to answer this kind of question) said the fan should NOT be on all the time. Finally, none of the 9 ThinkPads I've owned never behaved that way except this one. Then, isn't it logical to ask why mine does it?

astro · #30 Post by **astro** » Thu May 25, 2006 9:13 pm

drblue wrote:
With all due respect -- I fail to see how these 'techs' are qualified to comment on what is good and bad notebook thermal design. Do they actually know how much benefit there is to be gained from not having the fan on? I have a feeling that the fan's power consumption is tiny in comparison to the LCD, CPU and GPU...
Astro seems to believe that those of us who are complaining about the fan being always on are not logical.

No, you misunderstand my statement. I am not saying that having the fan off is illogical. I personally prefer that the fan is off. What I think is illogical is to simply say "the fan shouldn't be on because it is very very bad design, because it is battery draining". I disagree with this line of reasoning. I'll leave it at that.

You should now understand that I agree with the rest of your statements, especially this:

drblue wrote:However, I bet your answer is "no fan" as far as your laptop is cooled properly. If there is a choice in design that can allow only interval fan activity, it is a much better design in my humble opinion.

(Emphasis added)

NEW T60 Temperature Thread - Especially high GPU Temperature

NEW T60 Temperature Thread - Especially high GPU Temperature

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