T60 with 2GB (2 x 1GB SODIMMs from Lenovo) Locks Up

Message

christopher_wolf · #31 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 6:21 pm

whitney wrote:
whitney wrote:Crap...I know it's a pathetic response, but I donna know a solution...(I'm buying one of these and don't wanna have the problem)...thanks for the smiley face
If christopher_wolf and that level has that comment; here's a thought: wait another 2 months and look for the "refresh" models...think that's a good tought..."

So far, this hasn't proved to be a consistent problem...It is most likely a software glitch with the 1.06 BIOS revision or, a rare occurence, a bad SODIMM getting shipped in systems with 2GB ordered. There aren't any guarantees you won't run into the problem, but neither are there any guarantees that you would actually run into it in the first place either.

Although I am suspicious that there is some involvement by the latest BIOS revision to it. If so, that is just the firmware and a BIOS upgrade can be put off until any bugs in 1.06 gets fixed or the next BIOS revision comes out.

#32 Post by **Kyocera** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 6:59 pm

I upgraded my bios 2 days ago to 1.06 and have been running this thing almost non-stop and have not had any issues. I have an extra gig of ram also. I'm trying to run it hard, got about 24 days left of the 30 day return policy, so i'd rather upgrade the bios now and get it over with.

thibouille27 · #33 Post by **thibouille27** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:50 pm

Memtest86+ for 24 hours would be a good idea.

christopher_wolf · #34 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:02 am

Kyocera wrote:I upgraded my bios 2 days ago to 1.06 and have been running this thing almost non-stop and have not had any issues. I have an extra gig of ram also. I'm trying to run it hard, got about 24 days left of the 30 day return policy, so i'd rather upgrade the bios now and get it over with.

You really are taking advantage of that 30 day policy aren't you?

Conmee · #35 Post by **Conmee** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:31 am

I've run memtest (boot from CD) for 24 hours with 2 1GB SODIMM that I ordered from Lenovo and there are no errors. So I don't believe it's a heat issue. I've even run the stress test in PC Doctor overnight on each SODIMM (1GB at a time since both installed results in a lockup), and each time, the individual SODIMM performs flawlessly. I can even run 1GB and 512MB SODIMMS together and the machine runs perfect overnigh with memtest, PC Doctor, and 3DMark01 looping.

There's something the matter with the way Hypermemory is interacting is my suspicion. 90% of the time, the lockup occurs during a 3D screensaver, or other 3D app that uses the X1400.

BIOS 1.04 seems to lessen the number of lockups when doing general tasks, but doesn't improve the situation when using 3D (although, as I mentioned previously, 1.04 DOES fix some odd pixelation on the screen that 1.06 introduces).

My Kingston 1GB SODIMMs arrive on Tuesday, I'll report back my experience.

Another odd situation is that EMM386.EXE no longer works with my T60, regardless of the amount of ram and regardless of if I exclude the pre-assigned memory addresses for video, bios, usb, and CardBus. Can anyone else just try to boot with a USB key (can be Win98, Win95, MSDOS or PCDOS)... I've tried all flavors and EMM386.EXE just freezes. Wondering if there IS something wrong with the hardware on my unit. A pity to fix it given I hate having a machine with no dead pixels leave my possession.

But I might have to send this one in, if things don't change with the Kingston SODIMMs.

Daniel.

kimras · #36 Post by **kimras** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:38 am

Conmee wrote:I've run memtest (boot from CD) for 24 hours with 2 1GB SODIMM that I ordered from Lenovo and there are no errors.
.....
There's something the matter with the way Hypermemory is interacting is my suspicion. 90% of the time, the lockup occurs during a 3D screensaver, or other 3D app that uses the X1400.

I think you are correct - I've tried the same things, running memtest without any errors, and generally trying to stress the CPU without getting problems.

As soon as I start to stress the graphics card too with some 3D apps like 3DMark or World of Warcraft, then it breaks - bluescreens or black screen lockups depending on the current weather

Anyone know of a way to tweak the settings for hypermemory ? Any way to turn it off ?

chrisd · #37 Post by **chrisd** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:01 am

kimras wrote:Any news with this ? Have anyone managed to get it to work with 2 x 1gb ram modules while running graphics intensive apps such as games or 3Dmark ?

I tried mailing IBM/Lenovo's support a week ago, but I haven't heard anything from them at all

Ran 3DMark on my new T60, no crash (tried free version, gaming and regular 3DMark tests). I added Crucial memory to a T60 that came with 1G of memory installed.

kimras · #38 Post by **kimras** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:21 am

chrisd wrote:
kimras wrote:Any news with this ? Have anyone managed to get it to work with 2 x 1gb ram modules while running graphics intensive apps such as games or 3Dmark ?

I tried mailing IBM/Lenovo's support a week ago, but I haven't heard anything from them at all
Ran 3DMark on my new T60, no crash (tried free version, gaming and regular 3DMark tests). I added Crucial memory to a T60 that came with 1G of memory installed.

As far as I know, the problem only exists on T60p, which indeed points to a problem with the graphics card, such as Hypermemory...

erozsolt · #39 Post by **erozsolt** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:46 am

If you have a BSOD it is usually easy to diagnose what is the problematic hardware, it says what kernel modul went wrong.

So, does this problem have anything to do with what brand of memory you buy? Do you think 1 GB Lenovo modul is any worse than Crucial or Kingston? Just because buy.com stocks them at $99 and the latter two at newegg are about $150.

thibouille27 · #40 Post by **thibouille27** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:53 am

So memory is not at fault, for sure and GPU seems to be the culprit: either driver problem or GPU itself.
If there is no solution quickly, I would return it to Lenovo.

Conmee · #41 Post by **Conmee** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:56 am

I would LOVE to see a BSOD! lol

As stated earlier, these lockups (I'm using a T60, not T60p, so it's not just a T60p problem) simply put the system in a locked state... no keyboard, no mouse, nothing. The screen literally freezes. And there are no event log entries. In fact, even though I have to power down by holding the power button for 4 seconds, Windows never comes back up with a pre-boot screen telling me there was an error (no option to boot to Safe Mode or Last Known Good Config, etc). It's as if WinXP is completely unaware that there's a problem.

Daniel.

thibouille27 · #42 Post by **thibouille27** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:02 am

erozsolt wrote:If you have a BSOD it is usually easy to diagnose what is the problematic hardware, it says what kernel modul went wrong.

So, does this problem have anything to do with what brand of memory you buy? Do you think 1 GB Lenovo modul is any worse than Crucial or Kingston? Just because buy.com stocks them at $99 and the latter two at newegg are about $150.

Well, memory modules from brands (of your lappy -> official upgrades) or often overpriced and not very well speced (sometimes quite slow to say the least) but you're sure it'll work. That's why official upgrades exist.

Often you'll get Crucial, Micron and others for a lot less money, or much more performance for the price but you're never sure it'll work.

rtos8260 · #43 Post by **rtos8260** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:44 pm

Lenovo Tech Support just mentioned to me that there can be problems on the T60 and X60 when mixing brands of SODIMMs.

My two SODIMMs have the same Lenovo FRU number, 40Y8403,
and are the same general memory type, PC2-5300, 667MHz, CL5, but one is from Micron and the other from Hynix.

Lenovo is sending a replacement module (we won't know if it's Hynix or Micron 'til it gets here), but, since they're backordered a couple of weeks and I have a trip coming up, I'll probably just buy a pair of Crucial SODIMMs from Newegg and see if they work. Crucial is Micron's consumer brand.

Hopefully the two left over SODIMMs will work in the kids' MacBooks

I don't know much about the memory controllers in Intel-based chipsets (I do mostly PowerPC-based systems), so I'm not sure if this can be fixed with a BIOS or DIMM controller driver update.

I'm looking forward to hearing how Conmee's matching SODIMM experiment works out.

kimras, are any two of your four sticks the same brand? Sounds like you may have already tried this.

kimras · #44 Post by **kimras** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:21 pm

rtos8260 wrote:Lenovo Tech Support just mentioned to me that there can be problems on the T60 and X60 when mixing brands of SODIMMs.

...

kimras, are any two of your four sticks the same brand? Sounds like you may have already tried this.

Good news, it looks like they are aware of the problem at least.

I tried with 2 x Kingston modules, and 2 x crucial modules and unfortunately I got the same problems - they all seem to work alone.
I'll try to do some more testing and tweaking to see if there are any options I can change - did you get more details on what the known problems were ? Related to the GPU ?

dr72 · #45 Post by **dr72** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:27 am

Update:

I've run the memory test from the built in test - ThinkVantage? - on both sticks - each passes the test and the machine will run.

But if both are installed, it will not run. Originally the machine shipped with bios 1.05, and I've upgraded it to 1.06 with no change.

I've talked with Lenovo a few times now, but the service is really subpar as to what I expected. I purchased the NBD 9x5 service with the machine but have yet to see a tech.

I've also been told that my machine didn't ship with 2 gig from Lenovo, which is comical. And since the service guys don't have my system in their system as having 2 gig, they will not service more than 1 gig of memory. I've been instructed to contact the Sales Department and have them update the Service department.

Great machine when it works, but I guess the service went down the tubes since IBM sold it.

christopher_wolf · #46 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:30 am

dr72 wrote:Great machine when it works, but I guess the service went down the tubes since IBM sold it.

This is by no means a representative sampling; bother to search and you will find many people that have been happy with the quality of service thus far. Lenovo just happens to be a convienent excuse for some people.

Conmee · #47 Post by **Conmee** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:34 am

I have two 1GB SODIMM that I ordered (separate from my ThinkPad) from Lenovo... they are Micron and they have sequential serial numbers, hot off the press. They work great in my T42p, they work great when using only one at a time in my T60.

I'm going to send my T60 in (I hate to do it). I've also been able to lock the machine up repeatedly when using EMM386.EXE with various combinations of flags and exclude/include parameters... doesn't matter if it's MS-DOS 6.22, PC-DOS 7, Win95, or Win98 bootdisks, the system will hang after loading EMM386... the very same disks work absolutely fine on my T42p, my X41, and my Toshiba M400 Tablet.

So something is definitely wrong with my T60 and how it is using/addressing/managing memory. I also tried to run it with two PC2-4200 1GB SODIMM and it locks up under 3D stress as well.

So back it goes. I think before all is said and done, we'll be cursing Hypermemory and/or how the T60 uses memory. lol

If anyone else has a DOS/WIN95/WIN98 bootdisk, try to boot your T60 and make sure the config.sys has himem.sys and emm386.exe noems lines. If you're like my machine, you'll get lockups and system not found errors. I also tried running NTFSDOS (I skipped EMM386.EXE and my T60 would boot using my bootdisks), but NTFSDOS uses XMS memory as cache, and as soon as I load that program to map NTFS drives, it errors out with memory allocation error and locks my machine.

So back it goes... lol

Daniel.

DanSayer · #48 Post by **DanSayer** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:03 am

I had the same issue with 2 x 1Gb crucial SoDIMMs. I phoned IBM supported in the UK and they advised there is a known issue which they are working on.

The support tech opened a call and will contact me (hopefully today) to let me know how it is progressing.

kimras · #49 Post by **kimras** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:43 am

DanSayer wrote:I had the same issue with 2 x 1Gb crucial SoDIMMs. I phoned IBM supported in the UK and they advised there is a known issue which they are working on.

The support tech opened a call and will contact me (hopefully today) to let me know how it is progressing.

Sounds good - hopefully you will have better luck than I had

I finally got a reply to my tech-support email - unfortunately it simply said that I should remove all non-IBM/Lenovo RAM from my machine, and that only IBM/Lenovo RAM is supported

- actually quite interesting since my thinkpad shipped with a Samsung 1Gb RAM module...

They referred me to

http://www.pc.ibm.com/qtechinfo/MIGR-62761.html

which has a (rather short) list of supported memory modules.

dr72 · #50 Post by **dr72** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:27 pm

christopher_wolf wrote:
dr72 wrote:Great machine when it works, but I guess the service went down the tubes since IBM sold it.
This is by no means a representative sampling; bother to search and you will find many people that have been happy with the quality of service thus far. Lenovo just happens to be a convienent excuse for some people.

I'm well aware of what a representative sample is; I was simply posting my experience and my opinion. I'm not looking for a convienent excuse, I'm just looking to have the machine and configuration I purchased actually work.

After further calls today my ticket is "closed" out to the field service team and nothing more will happen regarding my problem until the tech shows up with 1 stick of memory and 1 system board. I couldn't update the "system" at IBM service and support to show that I actually purchased 2 gig of IBM/Lenovo RAM with the machine. I was also told last night that the tech would not show up with a pair of matched 1 gig memory sticks because I hadn't purchased 2 gig of memory.

I'll post an update after my discussion with a tech tomorrow.

christopher_wolf · #51 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:07 pm

dr72 wrote:
christopher_wolf wrote: This is by no means a representative sampling; bother to search and you will find many people that have been happy with the quality of service thus far. Lenovo just happens to be a convienent excuse for some people.
I'm well aware of what a representative sample is; I was simply posting my experience and my opinion. I'm not looking for a convienent excuse, I'm just looking to have the machine and configuration I purchased actually work.

After further calls today my ticket is "closed" out to the field service team and nothing more will happen regarding my problem until the tech shows up with 1 stick of memory and 1 system board. I couldn't update the "system" at IBM service and support to show that I actually purchased 2 gig of IBM/Lenovo RAM with the machine. I was also told last night that the tech would not show up with a pair of matched 1 gig memory sticks because I hadn't purchased 2 gig of memory.

I'll post an update after my discussion with a tech tomorrow.

Well? This is only one datapoint after Lenovo came in on things. Nothing else similar to compare it to without changed the variables that should be kept fixed (model, contractor, economy). I had encounters with them before and all of mine have been exactly the same as they were for all my previous Thinkpads ever since my 701c; absolutely excellent. I think I will hold the claims of the sky falling if Lenovo doesn't deserve it; so far they seem to be doing fine and at least show they are working on problems when they arise.

Hope you get your T60 back up and operational in a jiffy.

Conmee · #52 Post by **Conmee** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:05 am

Update:

So I received my two "Kingston" SODIMMs from Memorysuppliers.com and they were actually Elpida SODIMMs. At this point I don't care since I got a decent price and I just wanted to see if there was any change in my T60's performance.

Good news is that I ran the PC Doctor Memory stress test for 8 hours and everything passed with flying colors. I also ran memtest and no errors or hangs. This was all with 1.04 BIOS. I upgraded to 1.06 and all is well, no lockups. However, I still get a grainy pixelation on the desktop and certain menu elements that I don't get with 1.04, so I revved down to 1.04. I've tried setting everything to optimal/quality in the Catalyst control panel, and turning off Powerplay and using Max Performance, nothing I do will improve the pixelation with 1.06.

Anyhow, suffice to say I am moderately happy. I now have 2GB that works with no lockups. Oh, I should also mention that I looped 3DMark2001 20 times and completed without fail. I ran 3DMark2005 5 times in a row without failure or lockups, and I've been looping PC Doctor's video stress test for the past two hours without lockup, and will let it run overnight.

So why am I "moderately" happy?

Well... I still don't like the fact that the video (or at least desktop elements) seem to degrade with the 1.06 BIOS. In addition, I still cannot use EMM386.EXE (whether its the version that comes with MSDOS6.22, PCDOS7, Win95, or Win98). It just locks up before executing the config.sys file. Like most folks here, I don't like seemingly unexplained phenomena with regard to my ThinkPad, so...

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!! If anyone can boot their ThinkPad T60 (using USB or floppy or CDROM) and have it load himem.sys and emm386.exe and see if you can get to a command prompt and run the mem command, I'd appreciate it. Especially those folks that have T60 machines with 2GB that don't lockup. I just want to know if EMM386 isn't working with the BIOS or the memory speed or worse, I have a defective memory controller. Since this problem occurs regardless of the type or amount of ram I have installed, I'm assuming EMM386 will lockup other T60s as well.

Interesting tidbit.. I ran SiSoft Sandra and the memory controller and other hubs are labeled "Legend..." being the previous name of Lenovo. Not sure if this means anything, but that's the info that Sandra reports.

One last bit: When I check the system info from the Catalyst Control Panel, where it lists all system components, it tells me that my memory is running at 0Hz. Just wondering if that is what other folks are seeing.

Daniel.

mss1337 · #53 Post by **mss1337** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:21 am

I am just about to receive a new t60 2ghz, x1400, 14'' sxga from my school (I don't know the model no.) It sounds like the t60 doesn't support 2gig of ram. Is this a big problem or has it only been happening in a select few computers?

christopher_wolf · #54 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:56 am

mss1337 wrote:I am just about to receive a new t60 2ghz, x1400, 14'' sxga from my school (I don't know the model no.) It sounds like the t60 doesn't support 2gig of ram. Is this a big problem or has it only been happening in a select few computers?

A few select systems thus far; it seemingly depends on the brand and matching of the two sticks of RAM. Else, the T60 supports 2GB just fine.

irfan · #55 Post by **irfan** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:40 am

I just want to comment on the latest BIOS. They should have really throughly tested the BIOS. I am feeling like a beta tester. If I hadn't figured out that the BIOS upgrade was the problem, I would have sent my computer to the service center. That would cost me 45 days without a computer (in Turkey).

kimras · #56 Post by **kimras** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:42 am

christopher_wolf wrote:
mss1337 wrote:I am just about to receive a new t60 2ghz, x1400, 14'' sxga from my school (I don't know the model no.) It sounds like the t60 doesn't support 2gig of ram. Is this a big problem or has it only been happening in a select few computers?
A few select systems thus far; it seemingly depends on the brand and matching of the two sticks of RAM. Else, the T60 supports 2GB just fine.

I'm not really sure thats correct - I think it depends a lot on what you use it for - I've had it running with 2 x 1gb stick for days *if* I only do "normal" work on it, and very carefully not run any Direct3D applications.

But as soon as I do anything that uses 3D, I get the lockups, it can be a game, 3Dmark, or anything else that displays 3D.

I would imagine that many people could be running just fine with 2gb installed because they don't run the type of applications that provoke the problems.

christopher_wolf · #57 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:29 am

kimras wrote:
christopher_wolf wrote: A few select systems thus far; it seemingly depends on the brand and matching of the two sticks of RAM. Else, the T60 supports 2GB just fine.
I'm not really sure thats correct - I think it depends a lot on what you use it for - I've had it running with 2 x 1gb stick for days *if* I only do "normal" work on it, and very carefully not run any Direct3D applications.

But as soon as I do anything that uses 3D, I get the lockups, it can be a game, 3Dmark, or anything else that displays 3D.

I would imagine that many people could be running just fine with 2gb installed because they don't run the type of applications that provoke the problems.

Then it is a problem with the way HyperMemory works? If so, we can check by asking those of whom bought the T60s with the Intel graphics chipset. If they still have problems with the same BIOS revision, then we can be sure that it is related to the BIOS and/or memory combo (perhaps more sure of the latter), if not then it is related to the BIOS and the way HyperMemory does it.

Have you tried OpenGL? If it is a problem with HyperMemory, then it should affect both OpenGL and DirectX...else you might be having a driver problem that affects only DirectX.

rvacha · #58 Post by **rvacha** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:59 am

Conmee wrote:PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!! If anyone can boot their ThinkPad T60 (using USB or floppy or CDROM) and have it load himem.sys and emm386.exe and see if you can get to a command prompt and run the mem command, I'd appreciate it. Especially those folks that have T60 machines with 2GB that don't lockup. I just want to know if EMM386 isn't working with the BIOS or the memory speed or worse, I have a defective memory controller. Since this problem occurs regardless of the type or amount of ram I have installed, I'm assuming EMM386 will lockup other T60s as well.

Stupid question, but have you gone into BIOS memory area and enabled "Extended Memory *Test*" ? I stress test because enabling this actually *enables* extended memory for DOS, at least on all my non-T60 T-series machines. Perhaps EMM386 will run after this is done?

chuckl · #59 Post by **chuckl** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:27 am

I had the same problem with my ThinkPad T60P (2623-DDU) locking up. I had 2GB RAM, from two different manufacturers. It ran fine with either one of the memory sticks in either slot, but periodically froze if both were in at the same time.

It took me nine different calls to various people in service, sales, etc. They had me unscrew the keyboard and screw around with the memory sticks so many times that two of the screws would not stay in any more and everything was loose. Eventually they had me ship my laptop back and they sent me a new one (a few weeks later, because it was back-ordered). I have had no problems with the new one.

The new laptop is running BIOS 1.05a. I don't remember what the old one was running.

Conmee · #60 Post by **Conmee** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:59 am

OK...

1-I don't believe it's necessarily based on a memory manufacturer problem (although I will slightly contradict myself later in this post... lol). If so, then Micron-produced, Lenovo Branded (purchased direct from the Lenovo site) SODIMM don't work.

My two SODIMM from Lenovo are sequentially numbered, roughly 30 days old, and don't work together.

2-The statement regarding snabling the memory test is incorrect, I believe. This BIOS setting has nothing to do with enabling extended memory for DOS. Although "enabling" this setting in the BIOS will "initialize and test" extended memory, HIMEM.SYS does this for DOS, assuming there is no /TESTMEM:OFF flag in the HIMEM.SYS line. There are some OS's that are finicky about having the BIOS pre-scan the extended memory. HOWEVER, for fun, I DISABLED the Extended Memory Test in the BIOS and now my bootdisks WORK!!!! Yeah!!!! For the final test, I even installed DOSLFN and NTFSDOS drivers and they now work as well!!!! And the mem command indicates 64MB of extended memory.

So the net-net:

It looks as if Lenovo received a bad batch of early memory from Micron (at least in my case). As mentioned, I have two Micron parts purchased directly from Lenovo that were initially backordered. Both have a May 22, 2006 date stamp and are sequentially numbered. With both of these SODIMM installed, my T60 will simply lockup after a few moments or when initiating a 3D application. Either the SODIMM at 667MHz speeds are even more sensitive to timing and tolerances, and even the slightest variation causes problems, or there's someone along the way (Memory makers/Lenovo/etc) have incorrectly set specs. What do I know, though, since I'm not an engineer.

If all these problems stem from production quality, and varies even between batches of memory a single vendor produces, I think many ThinkPad owners are in for a long trial and error period finding the correct memory, or should I say, working memory when it comes to 2 1GB SODIMMs installed.

My final workable solution is to use 2 1GB SODIMM from Elpida (Japanese manufacturer, www.elpida.com, purchased from Memorysuppliers.com--I am not affiliated with these guys in any way, but they do promise a 30-Day No Questions Asked 100% Satisfaction Guarantee--lol), BIOS 1.04, and many prayers to various gods/goddesses/high powers.

Daniel.

T60 with 2GB (2 x 1GB SODIMMs from Lenovo) Locks Up

I had the same problem ...

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