T23 fell - won't power, no led or boot

[BBabe]

Hi all,
Searched the archives, but could not find a solution...
My baby (T23) nearly fell about a foot off a coffee table - I awkardly grabbed the screen and caught it, before it hit the ground. The screen went blank (black), and would not turn off, so I removed the battery and it went off. I put the attery back in and it booted, but hung at the "IBM TP" screen, so stupidly I removed the battery again. Since then, I am getting no pwr, no led lights blinking-absolutely nothing.
From reading other posts, I removed the cmos, battery, hd - cleaned all parts etc, tried the 10sec pwer on, and still no results...Maye it's denial, but I don't think it's the mobo - maybe I need a new cmos batt? but what do I know...Any other troubleshooting tips. I love my "baby" and want to fix it asap...PLS HELP!
Thanks in advance

[BBabe]

Yeah, grabbing the screen was the only way to stop the fall/crash.
Amazingly, the lcd does still work, as when the pwr was functioning I did get the logo screen.
How do you check HD shock? I did remove and reinstall the hd, but still no power/led lights...

[rkawakami]

Symptoms could be caused by a couple of things:

1) Possible that there is a fuse inside the case that has blown. It would explain why there are NO lights at all (at minimum you should see the power LED next to the power button come on, along with the battery icons on the right hinge). I believe that I saw a fuse inside my 600X next to the battery terminals so it's possible that there's one in your T23. Only ways to find out is to either open up your laptop or have someone here on the board confirm that fact. I had my T21 opened up a few days ago so if I have time in the next day or so, I'll see if I can find it. Hopefully it uses a similar motherboard to your T23.

(edit: Just checked the HMM. T23 uses a different system board than the T21 according to the FRU numbers. I would hope that something as basic as a fuse would be common on all of the Thinkpads)

2) It could be a broken power switch. If you have a docking station try plugging the T23 into the docking station and then use it's power button. If that works, then your problem is a bad power switch on the laptop. If it doesn't work, then it's back to possibility #1... or

3) Could be a loose connection inside the laptop that prevents either the power button from working or power getting to the motherboard. The keyboard connector could be loose. Try pushing down on the "Y" key firmly to see if it re-seats the connector.

I'm assuming that you are also using an AC adapter. Is there any way you can get a voltmeter and see if it's still putting out 16 volts? And while you are at it, check the battery too? It would be hard to believe that both the battery and adapter decided to check out at the same time. Usually a sudden power failure like this is something simple (like a fuse) but hard to pin down unless you do some electrical testing.

"HD shock": You will probably notice this when (if) you get power back to the laptop. Since your system was on when it went on it's trip southbound, there's a good chance that the disk was spinning and that you may have a head crash. Lots of clicking and clacking when the drive spins up is not good. If it does make noises it never used to, turn it off right away as there is still a possibility that a data recovery service can get your data back. They are not cheap, but if you don't have backups, that's your best hope.

A dead CMOS battery should not prevent the laptop from booting to at least the IBM splash screen.

[BBabe]

"(3) Could be a loose connection inside the laptop that prevents either the power button from working or power getting to the motherboard. The keyboard connector could be loose. Try pushing down on the "Y" key firmly to see if it re-seats the connector. "
Yep, that did it. The keyboard connector was loose (forgot to press "Y" hard, and secure back a screw)...So now it powers and the "green Z" - looks like a lightning bolt - lit up. WHOHOO!
BUT, now we have problem 2: nothing else happens - no screen nothing. I heard a spinning sound, freaked and thought it was the HD. I removed the hd, and the noise still exists. It's coming from the upper leftside corner. Sounds like the fan, but air is definitely flowing from the hd dock...Now I'm getting scared, what could it be?
PS - ty all for your ideas. I'm not very technical and have never had to open up a laptop...

[rkawakami]

I removed the hd, and the noise still exists. It's coming from the upper leftside corner. Sounds like the fan, but air is definitely flowing from the hd dock...

That does sound like the fan operating properly (exhaust air from the fan should be coming out the back leftside of the laptop). Give me about an hour as I'm just ready to leave work and maybe I can think of something, or somebody else can jump in and assist.

Just a thought... you said earlier that the laptop froze at the IBM splash screen. Try this: Keep the hard drive out of the system. Turn on the laptop and try to access the BIOS (hold F1 down as you turn on power). If you can get to the BIOS screen then we'll go from there.

[BBabe]

Thanks for replying...Tried the F1, and still nada - no screen or anything. I also hooked it up to an ext monitor and still no results...

[rkawakami]

Hhmmmm.... running out of thoughts from my "idea bucket"...

Lack of video from the LCD or external monitor is troubling. If there are any error codes being generated you can't see them.

Are there any 'beeps' during the power on? It's possible that the laptop is partially waking up but getting hung at some point in the boot process.

If you have disassembled the laptop, I hate to say it but, repeat the same steps and make sure that all of the connectors are firmly engaged.

I'm assuming that you have kept the hard disk drive removed from the laptop after encountering problem #2. As a last resort I would try installing it and powering up the laptop. If there isn't anything particularly important (i.e. irreplaceable) on the drive and you can re-install the operating system and programs on that drive (or a new one), then let it fly. On the other hand, if you have files on the drive that you want back, be very alert to any noise (whine, clicks, groans, etc.) when applying power and be prepared to power off. Data recovery services charge anywhere from $400 on up to retrieve data from "dead" drives. They are not always 100% successful.

(edit: Interesting discussion going on in this thread that may help your problem:

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=26746

)

[BBabe]

Problem is, I don't think a screen is even being generated. Once the pwr green light goes on absolutely nothing happens, no sounds, all I can hear is the "whirring" sound of the fan - no beeps, nothing. I don't think it's waking up at all.
I was getting the same results, with the hd in, but will try again. I do have imp info on my hd, about 10% of the hd is irreplaceable.
I tried that pwr button 10x, also and still nothing. I will try it now with the hd in.

[tfflivemb2]

Is the whirring sound a pulsing sound?

[BBabe]

WHOHOO! She's trying to make a comeback!
ok, did the pressing pwr button like 5x and still nothing. Tried different configurations like taking both batt and cmos out, taking just cmos out, no adapter etc.
Finally, with battery out, cmos in and adapter in it actually fully powered up WHOHOO! got "IBM" screen, then got an Error message (did not have chance to get #) "check time/date settings". Then it went to IBM BIOS SETUP UTIL screen and I entered date/time - saved/exit. The system started up as normal and Windows loaded as normal. I did hear soft sounds from HD when programs were loading, but I *think* that is the norm with this machine. The sound was not unusual. I think it's referred to as "seeking" - my TiVo makes the same sound.
So, I went to do a "restart" via Windows shutdown and it seems to have shut down, but the lit screen just hangs - the machine has not totally pwred off. I have pressed the pwr button and no response - How do I shut it down w/o causing damage?
I'd like to install Norton Save & Restore (bought it last week for this exact purpose), so that I can back up my files...

Edit: I took note of my bios version 1.13 (1AET56WW) 2002-7-02, anything else I should be taking note of?

[rkawakami]

... then got an Error message (did not have chance to get #) "check time/date settings". Then it went to IBM BIOS SETUP UTIL screen and I entered date/time - saved/exit.

This would have been the result of removing the CMOS battery. The date/time was lost and should have showed a 250, 251 or 270 error on restart.

...So, I went to do a "restart" via Windows shutdown and it seems to have shut down, but the lit screen just hangs - the machine has not totally pwred off. I have pressed the pwr button and no response - How do I shut it down w/o causing damage?

You should be able to hold the power button down for about 5-10 seconds and that should force the system off.

By the way, if you don't already have a copy of the hardware maintenance manual you can get it here:

http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... MIGR-39298

Scroll down and find the Thinkpad T20, T21, T22, T23 link. Manuals are in Adobe Acrobat (.PDF) format.

(edit: Question--What exactly is on the screen when it hangs on shutdown? Any Windows messages, etc. or is it simply a black screen with the LCD backlight on?)

(edit2: Second question--Do you have a floppy disk drive? The reason I ask is that you can also download the version of PC Doctor for the T2x series and this will allow you to check out most of the hardware on your machine. The link to download it can be found at:

http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... IGR-4YZM3F

Three files need to be downloaded and executed. Each program will create a floppy which you then use to boot the T23. Pretty easy to figure out and run. If you need help, just holler.)

[BBabe]

Gosh! This computer is really confusing me...Yes, when I was trying to shut it down I depressed the pwr button for over 10 sec repeatedly, but it did not work (turn off).
I finally got it to turn off by disconnecting the AC. It turned right off (I had already removed the hd, as system was not running). Then I tried to pwr back on and no go. I tried with batt installed - no go. Finally, got it to pwr up with CMOS and A/C in (no battery). Funny while working on it I found the loose CMOS in my lap, but it did not affect it's functioning. It is working just fine, like it did before the crash. I've been able to do restarts via Windows, but have yet to try to do a window shutdown, as I'm afraid I'll run into the same problem again, and don't want to have to shut it down by unplugging AC.
Norton is giving me a hassle backing up the files...But I'll figure it out.
- When it hung it "simply a black screen with the LCD backlight on", as said with no messages, screen nothing.
- I honestly can't remember if I have a floppy drive for this system, but will check tomorrow. If so I'll run PC Doc. In the meantime I'm going to leave the machine "on", and troubleshoot tomorrow when I have more time. I'll update the thread as I go...

Once again, thanks much for helping me out with this. I'm a lot further along than when I started. At least she's kinda working and I can access my files.

[tfflivemb2]

Gosh! This computer is really confusing me...Yes, when I was trying to shut it down I depressed the pwr button for over 10 sec repeatedly, but it did not work (turn off).

For the record, you are supposed to hold it down for about 10 seconds continuosly, not repeatedly.

As for PC Doctor, there is a link out there for a CD-Rom ISO, so you might not need the floppy version.

[rkawakami]

<snip> As for PC Doctor, there is a link out there for a CD-Rom ISO, so you might not need the floppy version.

Sorry to persue this and get slightly OT, but the only link I found at the IBM site for an ISO image of PC Doctor was for T30 and T4x (and others but not any T2x) systems. Got link?

[tfflivemb2]

Hmmm...my mistake. I thought that I had first used the disk on a T23, but I guess it was only on my T30.

[WhiteWolf]

To me, it sounds like you have the beginning conditions of one of the inductors?, theres a thread on here somewhere with more details but I'm used to the way vBulletin searches forums so I can't seem to find it.

The symptoms are seen as power light coming on, no screen showing up or anything, but the fan is pulsing, as suggested above. I'd maybe even take a look at it before you get too comfortable because this is actually quite common and when it finally stops booting all together you probably won't remember this thread.

[tfflivemb2]

I started that thread that you are speaking of, but it was pulled because of some additions that were made to it.

This is why I was asking if the fan was pulsing. If it is, then it is possible that one of the two PCBs on the underside of the systemboard.

Here are pics of the PCBs that I am talking about, and where they go:

Pic #1

Pic #2

[BBabe]

Sry, now I'm a little confused. Could you pls explain more about conductors/PCB's? Do I need to replace mine?
Thanks

[rkawakami]

I think that they are talking about a component on the motherboard (inductor) which may exhibit power problems when it starts to malfunction. It is basically just a coil of wire wound around a form.

Replace it? From the sounds of it, if don't have the 'pulsating fan' symptom, along with no video, no booting, then no. If you do, then it means tearing down the laptop until you get the motherboard out. Of course then you have the problem of finding a suitable replacement part. On the plus side, if you choose to do this, you could then make sure everything is connected properly.

Since the original accident which caused the laptop to start having problems was a fall, I would think that your problem is more mechanical in nature (loose part, loose connection, etc.) than an electrical failure. Just MHO.

[BBabe]

Ok, was able to find my floppy drive, so I got some floppies and ran PC Doc. Everything passed ok but I rec'd an error: "Linear Verify (LBA Mode) HD failed (Error verifying sectors 36983162 - 36983289)". Is there a way to fix/correct the problem?
My battery is back inside and it's booting 80% of the time on the 1st try, but sometimes I have to pwr on 3x in order to get it to start up. BUT, it's freezing up in the middle of doing things. The screen freezes, and the keyboard stops responding. Does this sound like a hd or mobo error?

[rkawakami]

Everything passed ok but I rec'd an error: "Linear Verify (LBA Mode) HD failed (Error verifying sectors 36983162 - 36983289)". Is there a way to fix/correct the problem?

The Linear Verify routine scans the disk drive's read/write heads from the beginning of the storage area towards the end. It appears that you have a bad section on the drive. It might be possible to fix, however that means re-formatting the drive and re-building the bad block table. The other "solution" is to get another disk drive.

I have to pwr on 3x in order to get it to start up. BUT, it's freezing up in the middle of doing things. The screen freezes, and the keyboard stops responding. Does this sound like a hd or mobo error?

To me that sounds like it could be either one. Can you give some examples on when it freezes up? What programs are running and what actions are you doing (saving a document, surf the net, etc.)? A system freeze could also be a memory problem. Be sure to check that the memory module(s) are firmly seated in their sockets.

Since you now have PC Doctor up and running you can try this:

1) Load the three PC Doc diskettes
2) Select Diagnostics
3) Select CPU/Processor test
4) Hit the F2 key
5) Click on/arrow down to highlight Set Pass Count and click/press Enter key
6) Change the default number of "1" to "100" and press Enter
6a) Click on/arrow down to highlight Halt On Errors and click/press Enter key
6b) Click on/arrow down to select Enabled
7) Hit the Escape key to clear the Test Options box
8) Click on the Run Screen "button"

This places the diagnostic program into a loop which repeats the selected test 100 times. Very useful for "burning-in" a system and detecting intermittent errors. I believe you can set this loop counter for most of the tests in the suite. I would recommend you run it in a loop for the CPU/Processor test, as well as the Motherboard test. It also wouldn't hurt to execute the memory tests this way. If no errors are found when testing the motherboard/CPU/memory, then I would say your hard drive is causing problems. It's possible that when the laptop took a tumble, the disk drive's head hit the platter and created a bad spot.

(edit: Added steps 6a and 6b in order to enable the "Stop on error" function)

[BBabe]

Thanks so much for the detailed instruc. I printed them and ran the tests - no errors, well that is except for the harddrive.
The freezing occurs randomly, but mostly when I'm surfing in IE or reading email - which is what I do 98% of the time. I'm also noticing that those programs are taking much longer to start up. Sometimes it will freeze within 15 min or within 4 hrs...
If I reformat the drive will I lose all info? Or is there a way to do it w/o losing any info?

[rkawakami]

The freezing occurs randomly, but mostly when I'm surfing in IE or reading email - which is what I do 98% of the time. I'm also noticing that those programs are taking much longer to start up. Sometimes it will freeze within 15 min or within 4 hrs...

If the motherboard/CPU/memory tests check out okay after looping through them for a couple of hours each, then I guess that what you are seeing is a problem with the disk drive hitting a bad spot. Not sure what the longer start-up time means but it could be the disk re-reading sectors until it finally gets the right data. Do you hear any "clicking" or "chattering" of the disk drive as it is running?

At this point I would say your best bet would be to try to get all of your critical files off of the drive before doing anything else with the laptop. I stress this because a random disk error can cause lots of problems. Since you indicated earlier that only about 10% of your drive contains important information, we aren't talking about too much data here (2-6GB).

There are several ways to do this depending upon the hardware and software you have. Easiest is if you have a CD (or DVD) burner in the T23. If you are running Windows XP then it has built-in support for CD burning. (Not sure about DVDs as I don't have one). Simply use Explorer to write files to a CD-R or CD-RW. If no burner is available, then the next easiest way is to network your laptops together. That can be done with shared folders (WinXP or 2000) and the Network icon (really just another form of Windows Explorer), and simply drag-and-drop files from your T23 to whatever system is on your network. Finally, you can use several forms of external drives. USB thumb drives, USB hard disk drives, or an Ultrabay HDD adapter. Again, use Explorer to drag files to the external drive.

I hesitate to suggest that you install any more software on the drive as it appears that there is a problem with it. Try to minimize the amount of writing (and deleting) of files to the T23 drive that goes on.

If I reformat the drive will I lose all info? Or is there a way to do it w/o losing any info?

Yes, you will lose everything in a re-format. Most backup or disk imaging programs that I am familiar with would have a problem when they encounter a bad section of the disk drive. Either they will lock up or be unable to copy files (or portions of those files) in the damaged area(s). In fact, you may still get lock-ups and freezes just by using Windows Explorer as I suggested above.

Do you have any restore CDs or Windows install disks to use after you backup your files? If not, then you will need some way to re-install your current operating system (or upgrade) on your disk. You could try to re-format your current disk and hope that the bad sections are flagged so that they won't be used, but if it were me, I'd opt to install a new drive.

(BTW, could you update your profile and enter your Location? It's useful for us to know where you are. Thanks!)

[BBabe]

I'm typing this on borrowed time, as I'm unsure when it'll freeze up...
No clicking, clacking or funny hd sounds.
No I do not have a copy of WinXP, which is what I'm using, but maybe I could get one. I think I may have the Cert of Auth sticker, when it comes preinstalled. I don't think I have any recovery cd's either...

Couple interesting things: Upon booting I rec'd an error "Windows could not start b/c the following file is missing or corrupt...
<Windows root>\system32\hal.dll
Please re-install a copy of the above file."

I have not rec'd that error again (yet).
The 2nd observation is that I suspect this is definitely "internet surfing" related. I was able to use the computer today for over 7 hours with no freezing, as I was re- backing up files, and trying to get my dvdr to work. It did not freeze once. Within 15 minutes of going online it froze up.

I remember reading something about PCI(?) maybe causing freezes, but did not quite understand the fix. Wondering if that's it.

I'm in Brooklyn, NY

[rkawakami]

I'm typing this on borrowed time, as I'm unsure when it'll freeze up...
No clicking, clacking or funny hd sounds.

Okay, that sounds fine (pun intended!) .

Couple interesting things: Upon booting I rec'd an error "Windows could not start b/c the following file is missing or corrupt... <Windows root>\system32\hal.dll
Please re-install a copy of the above file."

Ouch... I believe that file is Windows "Hardware Abstraction Layer" file. See this link for more information. Found it searching with Yahoo using "hal.dll windows".

I have not rec'd that error again (yet).

I would think you would only receive it when booting Windows. It may explain any hardware problems you are having once Windows is running.

The 2nd observation is that I suspect this is definitely "internet surfing" related. I was able to use the computer today for over 7 hours with no freezing, as I was re- backing up files, and trying to get my dvdr to work. It did not freeze once. Within 15 minutes of going online it froze up.

It's possible that one of the bad regions of your disk drive is in the area where your browser cache files are being stored. Try to limit browser usage to a minimum until you get all your files off the system. It appears that when you are writing files to the disk (by surfing and having the pages stored locally on your hard drive) that is causing lockups. This also means that if you try to install any new software, you may have problems with it.

I remember reading something about PCI(?) maybe causing freezes, but did not quite understand the fix. Wondering if that's it.

PCI is the Peripheral Component Interconnect bus that your computer uses to communicate with some of its hardware. Don't know if that is really your problem, but with your description of surfing locking up the computer, I'd bet it's more of a disk error.

I'm in Brooklyn, NY

What I meant was for you to update your profile on this board by using the link at the top of the page (underneath "thinkpads.com Support Community") so that your location appears in the left-hand side column under your "handle". This way we know what the time differences are between posters.

[rkawakami]

Do you have any restore CDs or Windows install disks to use after you backup your files? If not, then you will need some way to re-install your current operating system (or upgrade) on your disk.

[SMACK]... sound of the palm of my hand hitting my forehead....

In all of this exchange I assumed that you were running a used T23 that somebody had already wiped the hard drive and installed a new operating system. If your system still has the original O/S, then you may have a recovery partition on the drive. That will allow you to re-install Windows. Of course, if during the fall, your disk drive was damaged in that area then it may not work.

Q: During boot, is there a message on the screen that says something about the F11 key (i.e. "Product Recovery"). If yes, then you may be able to re-format/re-install that way.

Additional information about this can be found on page 23 of the Hardware Maintenance Manual.

(I'm still learning about the "T" series as well....)

[Berny]

Couple interesting things: Upon booting I rec'd an error "Windows could not start b/c the following file is missing or corrupt... <Windows root>\system32\hal.dll
Please re-install a copy of the above file."

i had a similar problem. frequently during cold boot i got this message, but about a different file (config.sys). i turned on "diagnostic boot" in the BIOS (see my other post). ever since no problem during boot. error message never came back.

[BBabe]

BIG DUH! on my part. I think that hal.dll error is incorrect. I got it again this am, but realized I still had my backup ext hd attached. As soon as I detached it, the error was gone. I suspect that I had it was attached when I rec'd the message yesterday.
I *think* my system may have come with XP home, and I installed Pro. I do/did the have the cd, as I found the case and product key, but of course no cd. UGH!! I know I have the cd, but just can't find it - I've searched high and low, but will continue to search today. My real fear is that I loaned it out and didn't get it back.
I will see if I can do a recovery via F11.
Yes, I understood about updating my profile. As my surf time is so limited, I'll try to do it at another time...

[BBabe]

Ughhh! Back to step 1, as green pwr light and fan are on, but system won't boot. I'll have to let it rest a minute, and try my previous steps...

[dsvochak]

1) Go to Control Panel--> Performance and Maintenance-->Administrative Tools-->Computer Management. Click "Disk Management" in the left panel. The right panel will list the "Status" of the hard drive.

2) Go to C Control Panel--> Performance and Maintenance-->Administrative Tools-->Event Viewer. Click "Application" in the left panel and search for warning and error messages. There may be one or more related to the hard drive. You may also find hard drive warning and error messages under Event Viewer--System.

3) Run a complete disk scan. Go to "My Computer", right click on the hard disk drive and select "Properties". Click the "Tools" tab and the "Check now" button under "Error-checking". Select both options in the dialog box that opens up and click "Start". You'll get a dialog box asking whether you want to schedule the check the next time you restart windows. Answer yes, reboot the machine and it will run a disk check. The check may take awhile.

After it's run return to Event Viewer. There will be an entry with source "Winlogon" which will describe the results of the disk scan.