Major performance issues with T60p (vs T41p)

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arnvid · #1 Post by **arnvid** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:41 am

Hi,

I recently bought an T60p (2007-93G) to replace my trusty old T41p, and the first few days it looked really good and well. But after a short period of time I cannot belive how slow this new SATA built laptop is compared to the T41p. Loading up more than one application that uses the harddrive at the time in XP makes it cripple to death and any subsequent hdd access after loading up any application which uses a bit of memory makes it crumble. Even trying to run games on this laptop vs the T41p seems to be below par.

Even now with just Firefox (5 tabs), 4x downloads (windows benchmarks software) and MSN up the system crawls.

From IBM/Lenovo's webpage the laptop is supposed to have an "100GB 7200rpm HD" but doing several tests show's it's not really performing like that at all. My old T41p had an 7200rpm ATA100 disk and it was alot faster.

Anyone else had similar experiences with these new laptops?

HD Tach benchmarking show's it's doing appx:

Random acces: 21.8ms
Cpu utilization: 4%
Average read: 40.7MB/s

arnvid · #2 Post by **arnvid** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:45 am

Addtional info:

The laptop is still running on the PreInstalled XP with updated drivers and applications through the ThinkAdvantage System update applications.

Even browsing the start menu takes allmost a seconds load time for the submenus to show it's content.

arnvid · #3 Post by **arnvid** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:55 am

HD Tune: HTS721010G9SA00 Benchmark

Transfer Rate Minimum : 18.8 MB/sec
Transfer Rate Maximum : 49.1 MB/sec
Transfer Rate Average : 39.2 MB/sec
Access Time : 15.1 ms
Burst Rate : 80.4 MB/sec
CPU Usage : 4.1%

The low 18.8 MB/sec came if I alt tab'd back into firefox

The second another app show's intrest in the disc it crawls

This test was done with nothing running in the forground other than the HD Tune...:

HD Tune: HTS721010G9SA00 Benchmark

Transfer Rate Minimum : 12.3 MB/sec
Transfer Rate Maximum : 48.7 MB/sec
Transfer Rate Average : 39.7 MB/sec
Access Time : 15.3 ms
Burst Rate : 80.5 MB/sec
CPU Usage : 3.2%

#4 Post by **RonS** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:08 am

These kinds of "My computer seems slow" questions are always difficult, because there is no one easy answer and solving the problem takes some investigative work on your part.

I have the same hard drive as you, so I ran both HDTune and HDTach.

HDTune:
Min speed: 25.8 MB/sec
Max speed: 48.7 MB/sec
Avg speed: 39.9 MB/sec
Access time: 15.3 ms
Burst rate: 78.9 MB/sec
CPU usage: 4%

HDTach gave similar results:
Burst speed: 113.2 MB/sec
Random access: 14.9ms
CPU utilization 3%
Average read: 42.1 MB/sec

The burst speed difference is probably a result of a different sampling technique between the programs. Since these numbers are in line with that you saw, I don't think your hard drive is the problem. I think you should start down this path:

1. First, if you have Norton Antivirus installed, uninstall it or completely disable its startup when Windows boots (this is very hard to do - involves registry and services hacking). NAV is more invasive and harmful than any virus you're likely to contract, and it makes your computer c....r....a...w...l. If you have any other anti-virus or similar program installed, try disabling it to see if your problem goes away.

2. Just to make sure, make sure you have SATA mode selected in the BIOS (not compatibility).

3. Open Task Manager, select View->Columns, and show CPU time. See if any of the tasks show an abnormally high CPU Time (System idle processes should show most of the time). If one task has a high value, that may be the culprit. End that task and see if the changes your performance.

4. Go through the list and terminate any of the processes that don't look essential. Don't worry - playing in the Task Manager won't break anything that a simple re-boot won't restore.

5. Look at your services (Control panel -> Administrative tools). See if there's anything in there that looks suspicious. Try comparing it to your T41 machine if it's running XP.

6. If you see your hard drive activity light on a lot, you can use filemon to help track down what's going on.[/url]

yves · #5 Post by **yves** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:38 pm

I have SYMANTEC antivirus.

Is it the same as Norton ANTI VIRUS ?

Should I remove it ?

BR

hoya · #6 Post by **hoya** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:54 pm

Yes, Symantec makes Norton. I would suggest removing everything that says Symantec in the add/remove programs list.

Windows Live Once Care degrades performance by only 1% so i would suggest trying that. otherwise, eTrust EZ Antivirus is another good choice for minimal system degradation.

also, disable or uninstall the Google Desktop. that slow things down considerably while it is indexing.

yves · #7 Post by **yves** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:56 pm

OK, hoya

I am doing that immediately and I will report to you

Thank you

arnvid · #8 Post by **arnvid** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:57 pm

RonS wrote:These kinds of "My computer seems slow" questions are always difficult, because there is no one easy answer and solving the problem takes some investigative work on your part.

I've used quite a few hours investigating this matter. And uninstalled every possible app or killed apps..

Not much help from good old windows here..

I'm do recall Windows XP and certain SATA interfaces had some huge compability problems in the past. Not sure if this applies to the one in the T60p.

RonS wrote:I have the same hard drive as you, so I ran both HDTune and HDTach.

HDTune:
Min speed: 25.8 MB/sec
Max speed: 48.7 MB/sec
Avg speed: 39.9 MB/sec
Access time: 15.3 ms
Burst rate: 78.9 MB/sec
CPU usage: 4%

HDTach gave similar results:
Burst speed: 113.2 MB/sec
Random access: 14.9ms
CPU utilization 3%
Average read: 42.1 MB/sec

RonS wrote:The burst speed difference is probably a result of a different sampling technique between the programs. Since these numbers are in line with that you saw, I don't think your hard drive is the problem. I think you should start down this path:

I don't think it's directly the hdd itself. More so a problem with multiple access to the disk through it's drivers or bios.

RonS wrote:1. First, if you have Norton Antivirus installed, uninstall it or completely disable its startup when Windows boots (this is very hard to do - involves registry and services hacking). NAV is more invasive and harmful than any virus you're likely to contract, and it makes your computer c....r....a...w...l. If you have any other anti-virus or similar program installed, try disabling it to see if your problem goes away.

Long gone..

RonS wrote:2. Just to make sure, make sure you have SATA mode selected in the BIOS (not compatibility).

Fixed on 3rd boot

RonS wrote:3. Open Task Manager, select View->Columns, and show CPU time. See if any of the tasks show an abnormally high CPU Time (System idle processes should show most of the time). If one task has a high value, that may be the culprit. End that task and see if the changes your performance.

Problem is .. nothing is really using CPU.

RonS wrote:4. Go through the list and terminate any of the processes that don't look essential. Don't worry - playing in the Task Manager won't break anything that a simple re-boot won't restore.

- doesn't help

RonS wrote:5. Look at your services (Control panel -> Administrative tools). See if there's anything in there that looks suspicious. Try comparing it to your T41 machine if it's running XP.

Well, the T60p is preinstalled with PAE. The T41p is custom installed.

RonS wrote:6. If you see your hard drive activity light on a lot, you can use filemon to help track down what's going on.

Doesn't really matter what it is.. if it's dir or any other app.. Do you still use the preinstalled version of windows xp or custom install?

Just as a funny side note..

My SATA desktop machine get's ALOT better performance iwth it's 120GB SATA drive while running World of Warcraft than my Laptop on idle

WDC WD1200JS disk on an diffrent controller type tho..

arnvid · #9 Post by **arnvid** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:08 pm

hoya wrote:Yes, Symantec makes Norton. I would suggest removing everything that says Symantec in the add/remove programs list.

Windows Live Once Care degrades performance by only 1% so i would suggest trying that. otherwise, eTrust EZ Antivirus is another good choice for minimal system degradation.

also, disable or uninstall the Google Desktop. that slow things down considerably while it is indexing.

Why on EARTH did they add so much crap to the preinstall in the first place? It was bad before.. it's even worse now

#10 Post by **RonS** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:11 pm

One more thought.. Make sure that you don't have Speedstep set for low speed. It should be Adaptive or Maximum in your power settings.

yves · #11 Post by **yves** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:32 pm

Why on EARTH did they add so much crap to the preinstall in the first place? It was bad before.. it's even worse now

ANSWER = to make money.

irfan · #12 Post by **irfan** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:43 pm

could you please attach a snapshot of HDTUNE test screen after the benchmark is completed?

arnvid · #13 Post by **arnvid** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:43 pm

that's one of them.. it's running idle there

hoya · #14 Post by **hoya** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:53 pm

arnvid - try turning off System Restore and also make sure that Rescue & Recovery isn't creating a backup of some kind in the background.

in msconfig, try a selective startup to see if that might be causing issues. I had major problems with the two synaptic drivers causing long delays when opening files in explorer, so I disabled them permanently.

arnvid · #15 Post by **arnvid** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:05 pm

hoya wrote:arnvid - try turning off System Restore

Allready off. It's one of the first things I turn off on a new pc

hoya wrote:and also make sure that Rescue & Recovery isn't creating a backup of some kind in the background.

Not installed.

hoya wrote:in msconfig, try a selective startup to see if that might be causing issues. I had major problems with the two synaptic drivers causing long delays when opening files in explorer, so I disabled them permanently.

Dont see anything unusual.

#16 Post by **RonS** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:13 pm

At this point, it may be worthwhile to see if your system has been comprised by malicious software.

1. Download and run Spybot's Search and Destroy, and LavaSoft's AdAware. See if they report anything.

2. Run HiJack this to see if there's a process being started that looks suspicious.

3. You may want to consider backing up your system to external media and doing a system restore. If the problems goes away after a system restore, then there's some software that's slowing your system down. If the problem remains after a system restore, then you may have a BIOS or hardware problem.

hoya · #17 Post by **hoya** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:17 pm

I assume you've already run a defrag - PerfectDisk is my choice for that. first do an offline degrag, then follow with a full defrag.

make sure you're seeing Ultra DMA Mode 2 in Device manager.

*note: I just noticed that there is no longer a Secondary IDE Channel... I suppose this is due to the new SATA drives?*

set PowerPlay to max performance in the Catalyst control panel.

Open Power Manager and select max performance there as well.

finally, try moving back to BIOS 1.04 - the new 1.06 version is causing video display problems on lots of machines (happened on my machine - see thread on that topic)

that's all I can think of, other than perhaps re-installing the Intel storage matrix drivers if you think it's an SATA issue.

TweakUI is also good for removing the delay in showing the Start Menu. it's classified as an XP PowerToy.

arnvid · #18 Post by **arnvid** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:30 pm

RonS wrote:At this point, it may be worthwhile to see if your system has been comprised by malicious software.

It's not

RonS wrote:1. Download and run Spybot's Search and Destroy, and LavaSoft's AdAware. See if they report anything.

Done allready. And with a few other process viewing non public applications.

RonS wrote:2. Run HiJack this to see if there's a process being started that looks suspicious.

Nothing extra.

RonS wrote:3. You may want to consider backing up your system to external media and doing a system restore. If the problems goes away after a system restore, then there's some software that's slowing your system down.

Not sure I see the use of doing a system restore. Since I feel it's been like this since day one. I can surely dump off my software and try again

But I had the same feeling from one of the T60's that one of my clients have too.

RonS wrote:If the problem remains after a system restore, then you may have a BIOS or hardware problem.

Have you tried a clean - non IBM/Lenove preload install?

arnvid · #19 Post by **arnvid** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:43 pm

hoya wrote:I assume you've already run a defrag - PerfectDisk is my choice for that. first do an offline degrag, then follow with a full defrag.

Defrag gives a slight application boost, until some other application want to play.

hoya wrote:make sure you're seeing Ultra DMA Mode 2 in Device manager.

No such thing for Serial ATA, Primary IDE channel is for DVD-R thingy.

hoya wrote:*note: I just noticed that there is no longer a Secondary IDE Channel... I suppose this is due to the new SATA drives?*

Yepp

hoya wrote:set PowerPlay to max performance in the Catalyst control panel.

Plugged in = Optimal performance

hoya wrote:Open Power Manager and select max performance there as well.

All are set to maximum performance

hoya wrote:finally, try moving back to BIOS 1.04 - the new 1.06 version is causing video display problems on lots of machines (happened on my machine - see thread on that topic)

Hmm, url to thread?

hoya wrote:that's all I can think of, other than perhaps re-installing the Intel storage matrix drivers if you think it's an SATA issue.

Intel's app dont recognize the ICH/SATA chipset.

Intel® Chipset Identification Utility
System Information
Chipset

Detected Chipset:
Mobile Intel(R) 945PM Express Chipset

Chipset Components

Memory Controller:
82945PM

I/O Controller:

Failed to identify your ICH

... anyone got an url to the correct ones

hoya wrote:TweakUI is also good for removing the delay in showing the Start Menu. it's classified as an XP PowerToy.

The delay in the start menu are clearly from disk i/o. As it clearly reads the disk. Atm it's showing fine tho.. But the system is idling too now. But I'll look into the XP PowerToy

I'm using the Classic ui btw - and settings set to maximum performance .. EyeCandy is a waste of cpu anyways.

hoya · #20 Post by **hoya** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:59 pm

arnvid wrote:
hoya wrote:finally, try moving back to BIOS 1.04 - the new 1.06 version is causing video display problems on lots of machines (happened on my machine - see thread on that topic)
Hmm, url to thread?

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=26314
and
http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=58604

arnvid · #21 Post by **arnvid** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:01 pm

hoya wrote: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=26314
and
http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=58604

tnx

hoya · #22 Post by **hoya** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:04 pm

check this review which compares the Hitachi 7K100 SATA to the Seagate 7200.1 SATA.

http://techreport.com/reviews/2006q1/mo ... dex.x?pg=1

not sure if that could be the bottleneck as I chose the 7200.1

also, you might try Hitachi's ftool: http://www.hitachigst.com/hdd/support/download.htm

The Feature Tool allows you to:

* Enable or disable the read-ahead or write cache.
* Change the drive Automatic Acoustic Management settings to the:
o Lowest acoustic emanation setting (Quiet Seek Mode), or
o Maximum performance level (Normal Seek Mode).
* Change the predefined capacity of the drive. This option can be used in situations where there is a BIOS limitation and the drive is not recognized. See the PDF Users Guide for specific details.
* Switch the Ultra DMA mode
* Change Advanced Power Mode - allows you to change between the lowest power consumption and the highest power consumption (maximum performance level).
* Show Drive Temperature - shows the current drive temperature in Celsius and Fahrenheit.
* Configure SATA interface - adjust maximum speed and enable/disable Spread Spectrum Clocking.

freakwave · #23 Post by **freakwave** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:35 pm

I always had the same feeling that my T60p is slower than my T40p when it comes to pure windows UI feeling, like loading programs and switching context. I did the hd tune benchmark and it looks like a limitation in the interface:

It starts with 40 MB/s and then satys there until 60% and then drops normally.

How can that be, I installed all the latest SATA driver?

My ultrabay drive works perfectly and schows the normal curve.
No wonder my windows feels so slow.

Regards

hoya · #24 Post by **hoya** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:56 pm

arnvid -

have you already taken a look at this thread? it appears that we should all be running in compabitibility mode, unless I misread those numbers. it seems there is indeed something amiss:
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=26878

arnvid · #25 Post by **arnvid** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:49 pm

hoya wrote:arnvid -

have you already taken a look at this thread? it appears that we should all be running in compabitibility mode, unless I misread those numbers. it seems there is indeed something amiss:
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=26878

Dunno if I'm gonna laugh or cry

- In all my years I've gotta admit this is a good one

- Having to run in compatible mode vs native to get speed

Yes, you're right - definatly something wrong here..

arnvid · #26 Post by **arnvid** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:50 pm

Actually - ftool shows the drive as ATA, not SATA. Which strikes me as odd..

christopher_wolf · #27 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:52 pm

arnvid wrote:Actually - ftool shows the drive as ATA, not SATA. Which strikes me as odd..

That shouldn't be the case; are you sure that compatibility mode isn't engaged in the BIOS?

arnvid · #28 Post by **arnvid** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:04 pm

christopher_wolf wrote:
arnvid wrote:Actually - ftool shows the drive as ATA, not SATA. Which strikes me as odd..
That shouldn't be the case; are you sure that compatibility mode isn't engaged in the BIOS?

Absolutely.... unless the bios indicates the opposite of what's really there... I'm getting more and more tempted to kill this pre-install and install a fresh XP-SP1. This pre-install has survived longer than any other Thinkpad preinstall since my first TP in 1998

hoya · #29 Post by **hoya** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:18 pm

considering what a disaster these BIOS releases have been, I wouldn't be at all surprised if it were misreporting something or hindering disk i/o in some way.

PhilB · #30 Post by **PhilB** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:18 am

FWIW, IBM's "Rescue and Recovery" can bring the latest and greatest system to a crawl.

Major performance issues with T60p (vs T41p)

Major performance issues with T60p (vs T41p)

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