Is my computer secure?

[pphilipko]

Well, there was an incident yesterday when the police came over to my place as my father called the police that someone had broken in (he had only imagined it). The police searched through all our documents, books, computer etc. This was at 9:00 am while I was away.

Fast forward to 4:00pm:

Much to my surprise, I came back to find that all my stuff was searched through. My father told me that he had called the police as he thought a gang had broken to our place. I turned on my unsecured desktops, and discovered that from my loggers that all of them were turned on while I was away and searched thorough for who knows what. I placed my sensitive data in my IBM X40, but when I logged on, a message notified me that the security chip "has been modified/reset". The encrypted data appears untouched, but with the security chip cleared, I can't seem to access it.. . I have a hard drive/power on password that's over 13 characters long, yet according to the computer logs, the police were able access my laptop. It appears it has something to do with connecting my computer through the ethernet port according to the logs. Luckily, however, they returned my computer to its original position, albeit with the screen open. The most pressing question that arises in my mind is, "wtf are the police so interested in my documents and computers?! I haven't even committed anything?!?!"

Is the security chip that secure after all? Any ideas on how they would be able access it? I'm not sure my computer is as secure as it appearsto be...

[JHEM]

I don't know what you're smoking Phil, but can i have some?

James

[pphilipko]

*sigh*, my father has Alzheimer's with mild dementia and called the police that 20 or so thugs had broken into our house and stole 10k.

Needless to say, 5 police cruisers with 2 officers each came within minutes. I was out of contact at the time, and so, after searching everything and seeing that nothing was out of the ordinary, they concluded he was mentally ill.

The annoying thing is that they accessed my computers and searched my bank statements...they weren't in the order that I had originally placed them.

The reason I posted was that they had managed to bypass all my security measures on the laptop?! When I logged on, the laptop didn't request any password and the client security program stated, as I said before, that the security chip was "modified/reset. Please reinstall Client Security..."

So, any ideas on how this is possible?

...and no, James, I didn't smuggle marijuana from Canada.

[JHEM]

So, any ideas on how this is possible?

It's not Phil.

If it really DID happen as you say, then I expect to read about it in tomorrow morning's Inquirer, and you need an attorney, pronto.

But, as you weren't there, there's the problem that you can't possibly know what permissions your father gave to the police to conduct a search. But, absent a warrant, they could only have searched for the "intruders" and couldn't have even LOOKED at your personal property, let alone touched it.

Seriously.

James

[christopher_wolf]

I don't know what you're smoking Phil, but can i have some?

James

Me too! (You cannot believe the grin I was wearing when I looked for the first response to Phil's post and saw that)

Phil, that sounds, srsly, really bizzare. How many passwords and encrypted files did you have? It is easy to get around a plain Windows Logon password; but not from what I have tried with CSS, the ESS and Chip, and FPR.

Any Supervisor, PoP, BIOS, or HDD passwords set?

Seriously, though; that sounds pretty bizzare and they shouldn't have searched anything that you had. Also, the level of security that you can get some laptops to, including the Thinkpad, would usually require a computer forensics team to even understand, much less crack. So....

Pass the joint, man

[tfflivemb2]

Yeah, they should have even attempted to access your laptop. They should have noticed the lack of other signs.

[DIGITALgimpus]

That story doesn't make sense for a few reasons:

1. Police don't search computers on site, they take them for examination. And it wouldn't have been returned at setup for you (you go and pick it up). And that often takes weeks for it to be released (normally in parts, since they disassemble to 'thoughly examine').

2. As others mention, just doesn't happen that way based on how security is setup.

3. Warrant would be required to search computers (unless it was on and visable to the officers with some illegal activity exposed).

4. You could pick up a police report that would have documented if a computer was touched during the search. You were informed of this right.



I'm guessing this is one of the following:
- A false post (smoking something?)
- "Officers" weren't true cops, but someone scamming an old man dressed like officers (unlikely, but possible).

Either way, read that police report.

[JHEM]

Either way, read that police report.

Yeah Phil, get down to the rotunda tomorrow AM and get copies of the "nines". They'll know what you're asking for.

James

[GomJabbar]

Well, maybe I'm the gullible, ignorant one here, but I can see the possibility. Who's to say that IBM/Lenovo did not put in a back door for Law Enforcement to get past the security chip? Maybe it just takes some hardware dongle or master password from IBM/Lenovo?

I admit it does seem implausible that the police would search the computers under the above circumstances, but who knows what other suspicions they might have had on whatever, and simply used the opportunity to attempt to gain information. Maybe pphilipko has ties to one of those "radical groups"?

[DIGITALgimpus]

Again, they take computers, they don't do it on site... and it would be in a police report.

And if they search them... they do a thorough job.... which takes more than a couple of hours.

The post just doesn't make sense.

[tfflivemb2]

I think that there are three possibilities:

1. Since his father has Alzheimers, it is possible that he never called the police. Someone could have prayed upon his condition, pretending to be responding to a call that was never made.

2. There was a "high-tech" gang that broke in looking for this kind of info, and the PD responded, but never checked the things that were messed with. The PD might have dismissed his father after getting there and determining that he has Alzheimers.

3. He did call for the police and the real officers took advantage of the situation.

@Phil: As the above posters have stated, I would definately contact the PD and try to get a copy of the report. Did you meet any of the officers?

[Torque]

Watch out for big B

[DIGITALgimpus]

I'd be curious what "logs" gave you this info, in particular about the ethernet port.

[GomJabbar]

Again, they take computers, they don't do it on site... and it would be in a police report.

And if they search them... they do a thorough job.... which takes more than a couple of hours.

The post just doesn't make sense.

If pphilipko himself was the suspect in the investigation of the break-in, then I would agree. If on the other hand, the law enforcement officers or detectives decided to take advantage of the situation because they believed pphilipko might have information helpful to them in whatever, they might have used the opportunity of investigating the break-in as cover. They might have felt they would never be discovered. I don't think it is all that unusual for law enforcement to take "liberties" when they feel the ends justify the means, and when they feel they won't get caught. After all, it works for the Pres. (well, except he got caught).

I'd be curious what "logs" gave you this info, in particular about the ethernet port.

I can't speak for pphilipko, but my software firewall, Kerio, and Event Viewer in Administative Tools, both log internet connections.

[jjesusfreak01]

Thinkpad owners get awfully bored sometimes...to have this discussion. Its not probable that anyone broke into his computer, especially the police.

[GomJabbar]

Thinkpad owners get awfully bored sometimes...to have this discussion. Its not probable that anyone broke into his computer, especially the police.

I don't know pphilipko personally. You will note however that he is a Senior member here. I don't recall reading outlandish posts by him in the past, that is why I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. If some of the other members of this forum had posted the same story, I probably would not have responded.

It is possible that pphilipko is bored, and decided to start this thread to see where it would lead. But for now, I am going to take it at face value. [Maybe there will be a pie in my face later].

[dsvochak]

I read this thread last night and ever since there's been something nagging at the back of my mind and I just remembered what it is:

Last night somebody broke into my apartment and replaced everything with exact duplicates... When I pointed it out to my roommate, he said, 'Do I know you?' --Steven Wright

[Kyocera]

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... ht=#111470


pphilipko wrote previously:

I intended it to be funny. Apparently, I have a VERY warped sense of humor.

[pphilipko]

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... ht=#111470


pphilipko wrote previously:

I intended it to be funny. Apparently, I have a VERY warped sense of humor.

No, I am serious this time, Kyocera. Perhaps, in that earlier post, I had been smoking something...

To clarify, this occurred in Vancouver, Canada, not back home in Philly.

Someone had taken a look at the documents, not on the computers but in a box under my desk), as they were not placed in the order I had put them in. They deal with some international matters (financial) in Hong Kong, and it is strictly confidential information. The constable (and the police report) did confirm that they had examined them.

In reply to some of above posts, no, I did not meet with any police officers during that time, as I was away from 8 am to 7 pm and they arrived at around 9:00 am. My computers were actually taken away, as some wires were still disconnected. Not only that, (as stated before) the standard computer system logs stated that there was a "connection established" on the ethernet port at 9:23 am and connection lost at around 4:00 pm. My desktops were also on for around the same period...I had shut them all off that same morning, not to mention my laptop security chip had become disabled.

I contacted the police (one of the constables left a card on my desk), and he told me that they were "originally trying to search for intruders", and that my dad, I quote, "muttered gibberish and pointed at my computers". He did admit that they searched around my house "with my father's permission" and looked at some of my files for any signs of identification and/or illegal activity. I asked them what they did to my computers, and they said that they didn't understand my dad, and so hoped to gain more information as to what really happened by SEARCHING (or more appropriately, intruding upon) my computers. According to the report, they only turned on the computers to gather more information for "identity verification" and/or signs of "illegal activity". The constable whom I called said that they did disable the chip to access my laptop, but he promised that they didn't decrypt all my files after gathering enough information to determine that my activity was legitimate. He seemed sorry, and said that he hoped I would "forgive" him for this misunderstanding. He admitted that he had originally thought I had illegal operations with drugs/gangs, with international financial matters in boxes, and computers and wires strewn about my room...

The actual police report listed searching the entire house for identification, and accessing the computers under suspicion of illegal activity, but that no concrete evidence was found. My father's call was stated as a false alarm.

In reply to christopher, yes, I set all the available passwords. I think the fact my father called 9-1-1 also gave them the opportunity to come and investigate my doings..

Thanks for the advice, James. What options are available to me if they've moved/looked at my personal property without MY permission? Is there any legal action available to me? Next time, I'll probably rely on bank safe boxes to hold my documents. I have three citizenships: (Canada, US, China).

Other than determing what legal actions are available to me, I guess this incident is over. Thanks Gomjabber for having some faith in me.

At least I learned something over this entire incident: the security chips in IBM's laptops aren't as secure as one would hope. For all of you who are curious, law enforcement officers (at least in Canada) do have the resources to bypass the security measures...

[dsvochak]

this occurred in Vancouver, Canada
----------------
What options are available to me if they've moved/looked at my personal property without MY permission? Is there any legal action available to me?

I think you're going to have to consult with someone who's an expert in Canadian Law. And the fact they will say they looked with your father's permission may be a big obstacle to successful legal action.

[christopher_wolf]

this occurred in Vancouver, Canada
----------------
What options are available to me if they've moved/looked at my personal property without MY permission? Is there any legal action available to me?

I think you're going to have to consult with someone who's an expert in Canadian Law. And the fact they will say they looked with your father's permission may be a big obstacle to successful legal action.

Then again, his Father had a verifiabl illness. I find it a little strange that the cops would come in, and upon talking to somebody that is obviously a little out of the moment, take and *search all the computers in the vincinity* for signs of illegal drug activity. Probable cause? The father only called to say that a gang of thugs had physically broken into the place, then pointed to the computers.

Also, mind asking them how *exactly* they got around all those passwords without taking the systems to a crime lab? That is some serious work no matter what police department you are.

I know little to nothing about Canadian law, but I do know that, in the US, a search warrant is required for taking computer systems with passwords and encrypted data on them to a special computer forensics lab for a look-see. Ask them that and see what they say.

[Kyocera]

Maybe the cops were just as confused about the whole thing, when your father tried to explain things to them they may have started getting suspicious. Maybe it's standard procedure up there to search everything when summoned to a rather strange situation.

[dsvochak]

christopher_wolf wrote:

I know little to nothing about Canadian law, but I do know that, in the US, a search warrant is required for taking computer systems with passwords and encrypted data on them to a special computer forensics lab for a look-see

The reference to what is required in the US may not be case under the various statutory enactments that followed 9/11 and the current administration's interpretations thereof.

[christopher_wolf]

christopher_wolf wrote:

I know little to nothing about Canadian law, but I do know that, in the US, a search warrant is required for taking computer systems with passwords and encrypted data on them to a special computer forensics lab for a look-see

The reference to what is required in the US may not be case under the various statutory enactments that followed 9/11 and the current administration's interpretations thereof.

I don't think so. That hasn't changed before or after.

That kind of a legal defense is even shakier because there was not one mention of the word "terrorism" in it at all. Nor could the police claim as such. Especially since the father called them because of a suspected burglary.

[dsvochak]

In the US, a search warrant is not required where there are "exigent circumstances" (which is a term that may mean something entirely different today than it did 9/10/01).

In this case the police are free to say anything they want without fear of contradiction. 10 police officers against a man who "... has Alzheimer's with mild dementia". Whose account of what took place gets believed? And they have already claimed they "... had originally thought [pphilipko] had illegal operations with drugs/gangs, with international financial matters in boxes, and computers and wires strewn about [his] room".

[christopher_wolf]

And they have already claimed they "... had originally thought [pphilipko] had illegal operations with drugs/gangs, with international financial matters in boxes, and computers and wires strewn about [his] room".

...I missed that part.

[tfflivemb2]

<snip>but I do know that, in the US, a search warrant is required for taking computer systems with passwords and encrypted data on them to a special computer forensics lab for a look-see.

Close...if his father appeared to be the owner, they could have legally removed the items with his permission...assuming that they didn't realize that he was uncapable of making that decision.

[jjesusfreak01]

<snip>but I do know that, in the US, a search warrant is required for taking computer systems with passwords and encrypted data on them to a special computer forensics lab for a look-see.

Close...if his father appeared to be the owner, they could have legally removed the items with his permission...assuming that they didn't realize that he was uncapable of making that decision.

Ive seen episodes of cops where they will go into a house, called by the father because the kids are upstairs smoking pot or something. Sometimes the adults are a little incoherant. If you were a cop sent to a house with a possible break in, and the only adult in the building mumbles about the computers and such, you might be a little curious and want to go check them out.

Anyways, the police were justified in searching through whatever they wanted if allowed by the father (even if the stuff didnt belong to him) simply because they couldnt have known better.

I would like to know how they bypassed the security chip though, doesnt sound like basic cop 101...Makes you wonder what the government has been teaching them. Maybe a weekend course on "How to get into the computer backdoors we made the manufacturers put in"...

[christopher_wolf]

I would like to know how they bypassed the security chip though, doesnt sound like basic cop 101...Makes you wonder what the government has been teaching them. Maybe a weekend course on "How to get into the computer backdoors we made the manufacturers put in"...

Or "How to get people ultra paranoid by using a command similar to UNIX touch and come up with conspiracy theories."

Maybe, just maybe, the biggest conspiracy the government has is to make ominous noises so false theories get generated. Then anything they want can fly right through in the open via fine print and riders...or....

[pphilipko]

I've contacted the constable again as to how he managed to access my laptop, and according to him, the VPD already has a unit specializing in accessing the computers to search for evidence of cyber crime and/or drug dealings. Apparently, there's been an increase in cyber crime and high tech drug rings.

The most interesting thing is that he claims that these "high tech thieves" are most commonly seen using IBM laptops protected by all sorts of security measures. Naturally, I guess he thought that I was one of them...especially because of my laptop..

The constable absolutely refused to say how exactly my computer was hacked, as this was "highly sensitive information", but did hint that the process involved connecting my computer through a port and deactivating the chip and the passwords from there.

Perhaps the safest way to store one's information is to have a secure USB drive and bring it with you wherever you go...