People cannot grasp that PCs decrease in value

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kstuart · #1 Post by **kstuart** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:45 pm

With out any exception, every working Thinkpad offered for sale in this Forum is priced higher than what they actually sell for elsewhere (i.e. the fair market value), usually 20-25% higher.

I remember 20 years ago, my boss bought an IBM PC, and then later moaned that the current value of his PC was always less than the remaining payments due the bank!

But this illustrates that CPU's are always faster, memory is faster and cheaper, hard drives are larger and smaller. This is something that doesn't happen with non-electronic products. I have a solid walnut dining table which is never going to be worth less than the original price. I still have the same Magneplanar Speakers that I bought 20 years ago - electronic technology has only made marginal changes in speakers.

Thinkpads do sell for more than other laptops of equivalent age, but they are still subject to the onward march of computer technology.

I noticed that one could recently buy a new T60 direct from Lenovo for under $800. While I understand the advantages of some of the older models, nevertheless I think that a four-figure selling price for an old out-of-warranty model is dreamland - no matter what Targus bag is included.

(Actually, for reference, I just received a new made-for-Thinkpads Infocase I found on ebay for $8.95)

Part of this is that laptops are inevitably worn out by use. Lately, I bought a second 570 "parts" unit, but even the best parts of both PCs are still worn. Desktop PCs are generally not touched (except for the keyboards, mice and CD/DVD drives - all of which are cheap to replace), while laptops are constantly being opened, closed, scratched, dropped and most importantly, moved. I'm coming to the conclusion that one is not going to get more than 6 or 7 years of frequent use (I think that many members here have older units that work well because they also have never Thinkpads that they also use).

So, older is inevitably going to mean wear on a laptop.

PS I also wanted to point out that prices during the summer for PCs are lower than spring or fall - so that is something to consider.

Website · #2 Post by **tfflivemb2** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:09 pm

Moved to Off-Topic.

One thing to note about the prices of the Thinkpads here....we are all about Thinkpads. If you were on a Mustang website/forum, a 1966 Mustang in excellent condition would sell for far more than on eBay...BUT you can pretty much guarantee that the Thinkpad will be in better shape than those on eBay.

On the other hand, you can pick up a Dell pretty cheap here!!

kstuart · #3 Post by **kstuart** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:12 pm

This was intentionally posted in Marketplace as an alternative to constantly posting "your price is too high" on individual threads.

(For example, a T40 that is priced the same as a T43 that was also in the Marketplace Forum.)

Discussion of the subject of a Forum is not off-topic.

For example, topics such as "T4x are prone to problems" are not moved from the T40 Series Forum to Off-Topic Forum, even though it is about general issues rather than specific T4x issues.

christopher_wolf · #4 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:57 pm

tfflivemb2 wrote:Moved to Off-Topic.
On the other hand, you can pick up a Dell pretty cheap here!!

That's because most of them are anywhere you go.

#5 Post by **Kyocera** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:58 pm

This post is absolutely meant for off-topic. The marketplace is to buy/sell items, brentpresley referred to people "complaining" about how much someone wants to charge for their item as "thread-crapping", I agree with that, it is alright to offer some friendly advice, but not everyone needs advice about how much they sell their items for. They'll either sell or they won't, i've seen it both ways, sometimes things get grabbbed quick and sometimes seemingly wonderful deals head for ebay.

I don't think ebay should be the barometer to guage all the worlds thinkpad prices on either, it's been mentioned before, people here take care of thier computers, and will normally stand behind their sale.
I would not buy anything from ebay, craigslist, whatever. Today I heard that people using Craig's list were being set up for robberies, unbelieveable. I'd pay more to buy from people here and have been doing so since I joined.

bigtiger · #6 Post by **bigtiger** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:21 pm

Kyocera wrote:Today I heard that people using Craig's list were being set up for robberies, unbelieveable.

Really? Never heard of. I sometime use Craigslist to list heavy stuff that I do not need of. I know there are a lot of Nigerians there but never heard of a real robbery yet.

#7 Post by **Kyocera** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:30 pm

San Jose police are looking for a robber who is targeting people he has met on Craigslist while posing as a seller or buyer.

The suspect has struck four times since Tuesday, including three times on Friday, Sgt. Nick Muyo said Saturday. The latest robbery occurred at 10:34 p.m. Friday near an apartment complex at Almaden Expressway and Canoas Garden Road.

In cases where he has purported to buy something, the suspect has robbed the victim of the items -- small electronic devices -- and cash. When he has posed as a seller, he has robbed his victims of cash, Muyo said. In two cases, the buyers drove to San Jose to meet the suspect, he said.

This is a clip from one article, and apparently this is not an isolated case, I just shook my head when I heard this today. Then they started suggesting to "not meet anyone alone, meet in a public place" etc, etc.

bigtiger · #8 Post by **bigtiger** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:40 pm

This is scaring. Too bad. Thanks for sharing this information.

#9 Post by **archer6** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:03 pm

When one purchases a ThinkPad here the chances of getting a "good one" are quite high, as compared to ebay or craigslist. A well maintained regularly used ThinkPad is a far better buy (inluding wear & tear) than one that has sat around or been passed around loosely amongst the general populace of non tech people....

#10 Post by **daeojkim** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:34 pm

PC values depreciate but not as much as they used to. Ten years ago a new PC would depreciate in half in a matter of six months due to incredibily rapid development of hardwares. Nowadays that is not the case. A PC that is 3-4 years old can easily do most of necessary tasks except latest games.

About the prices in this forum, I think most of items are in fair price range and most importantly it is most likely that you will get a machine from an owner that cared for.

You may get a machine from e-bay at a lower price but I am always weary of buying a used machine from e-bay. From my experience, all of long time members are trustworthy and honest with detailed full disclosure about machine's condition.

Overall I think marketplace in this forum has been a lot more successful in terms of safisfaction between sellers and buyers than any other forums that I know of. It is a reflection of quality of people here. I am so glad that I can be a part of it.

dsvochak · #11 Post by **dsvochak** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:22 am

The basic assertion is simply incorrect. There have recently been a number of Thinkpads priced lower than what they actually sell for elsewhere. K. Eng's fabled multiple MB "Moderator's T40" ( http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?p=170010 ) is one example. (One of the posters in that thread wrote "Actually, I had just bought an identical T40 only days before, for more money, else I would be interested.")

"Fair market value" is simply what a willing buyer, taking into account a number of factors, will pay. The solution is simple: if you think the price is too high, don't buy. The 82 "Positive feedback for fair traders" while there are 0 "Negative feedbacks", while not perfect, indicate the system is working pretty well.

bigtiger · #12 Post by **bigtiger** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:29 pm

I disagree that most laptops you buy from eBay are basically worse than here. There are many good laptops on eBay for sure. I agree the laptops sold here are well cared but that does not mean the opposite on eBay.

There are many eBay members that do consignment sales. I see many good quality stuff from them.

#13 Post by **AlphaKilo470** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:23 pm

There are more bad laptops on eBay than here because of the mass number of laptops in total on eBay. I'm sure if this forum worked the smae volumes as eBay, the percentages would be within the ballpark of each other.

I bought a 400mhz 600E on eBay a few months back that was in mint condition with perfectly healthy battery, 10gb HD, 160mb RAM, Win 2k pro, boxed sealed copy of Word 97, floppy drive, network card and AC adaptor all for $100. Likewise I've bought a few junk-clunkers here. It depends on when, where, how and for what you're looking for.

NS · #14 Post by NS » Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:43 am

What? That means i buy a comp (not tp pf course!) for $1000 today and the next month, it will drop to $500 or less???

OMG!!!

#15 Post by **archer6** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:53 pm

NS wrote:

What? That means i buy a comp (not tp pf course!) for $1000 today and the next month, it will drop to $500 or less???

OMG!!!

Here is how I look at it. I shop for the computer that best suits my needs at the time. Then I also take the future into consideration and buy what "seems" to be a model that will serve me well going forward. As long as the computer does what I need to accomplish then it really does'nt matter if it's the latest model a year from now.

That said, many of us here are enthusiasts as well as users and if we have the means, it's a source of enjoyment for us to get new models to work with. This is a choice to replace, not a need. Unlike many other models such as Dell for example, the ThinkPad is a computer that is designed to last a very long time. Be serviceable and supported for a long time, and provide reliable, stable operation over a number of years. ThinkPads are built from top of the line components. You get what you pay for and with that comes years of enjoyment. I have a 10 year old ThinkPad that today still does all the office tasks, database, and web research I want to do. I choose to keep it and maintain it as though a person would with a classic car. It's in "like new" condition. There are no squeeks or weak areas in the case. The keyboard is as solid and quite as the day it was new, the optical drive is fine, and it's on it's 4th battery, not bad considering it's age. Because I have carefully carried it in an appropriate case, the exterior of the computer is absolutely perfect. The value of this computer on the open market is probably far less than $60. Yet it's value to me is priceless as it represents my first ThinkPad that performed perfectly for 4 years before I decided to buy something new, just because I wanted new and more updated technology, not because mine was worn out. Quite a testimony for the product...

epbrown · #16 Post by **epbrown** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:58 am

bigtiger wrote:I disagree that most laptops you buy from eBay are basically worse than here. There are many good laptops on eBay for sure. I agree the laptops sold here are well cared but that does not mean the opposite on eBay.

There are many eBay members that do consignment sales. I see many good quality stuff from them.

My chief gripe with eBay laptops is "stripping." Here, you usually get the laptop with all acessories and the original box. On eBay, you're lucky if they include the AC adapter - everything else (manuals, recovery discs, optical drives) is being dumped in Accessories as a separate sale.

My 2nd biggest gripe is shipping, both prices and delays. I've been looking at getting another standard battery for my X30 and shipping prices are often 50% of the asking price, then it shows up in a 20 cent padded envelope sent the cheapest way possible.

And everyone wants to get paid quickly, but when it's time to send the item they've got better things to do. A week before my birthday my girlfriend bought a bunch of BMW memorabilia for me on eBay - one of the items has yet to show, nearly a week later.

#17 Post by **AlphaKilo470** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:28 pm

My cheif gripe with eBay, as a seller, is the amount of fees and the way the system works. eBay must charge fees to stay in business (which is alright) and the individual fees alone are pretty small but they add up very fast. You have core insertion fee then the starting bid fee (and buy it now and/or reserve fee if applicable) then final value fee then having to pay for every little "extra" feature then the transaction fees on PayPal if you're a primier or business member and when added up this is huge blow to profit. What makes it worse is that anytime I try to compensate and stay in business by raising my bid prices or shipping prices to compensate or lowering bids and in exchange for high shipping on order to at least save money, people start griping, whining and complaining like there is no tomorow. In essence, the system works just like cigarette and gas prices in that a governing body taxes the living daylight out of a product and while the seller gets all the negative publity. And that, folks, is what grinds my gears.

dsvochak · #18 Post by **dsvochak** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:52 pm

Is 100% of nothing better than something less than 100% of something? The ebay and PayPal fees sellers incur are a relatively inexpensive way to gain access to a world wide group of potential buyers. And they're fully disclosed.

#19 Post by **AlphaKilo470** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:00 pm

I don't mind that the fees exist as I realize they are needed for PayPal and eBay to stay in business. What I don't like is having a fee shoved into every nook and cranny. Still, all honsety it's not so much the fees that annoy me as it is people who tell me it's unethical to add a two or three dollar price hike to the shipping charge to cover my fees. On the more expensive items, the fees in total can really bite into the wallet and I have to compensate somehow.

To take both sides of the argument though, I do acknowlege that much bad publicity is due to people who take views similar to mine and push to the extreme by putting shipping at something outrageous and that goes way beyond "compensation" and into downright greed but fortunatley, we have a buyer controlled market that kills those people off almost as fast as they form. Supply and demand works very well on eBay which is a good thing.

tselling · #20 Post by **tselling** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:10 pm

Figure out your Ebay costs... and you can subtract if you sell here. I have sold for less here than I thought I could sell on Ebay. Especially if parting out a system. But I would often rather sell to someone here than on Ebay. Also I have given inexpensive systems away to people that need it (390 thinkpad to a school teacher) rather than sell. Sometimes its worth more to give away than sell (not in money, but you will feel good about it).

epbrown · #21 Post by **epbrown** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:35 pm

AlphaKilo470 wrote: Still, all honsety it's not so much the fees that annoy me as it is people who tell me it's unethical to add a two or three dollar price hike to the shipping charge to cover my fees.

No offense, but to me that is unethical. Shipping charges should represent what it costs to ship the item. What you're describing are service charges, and to me if a seller wants to tack those on - whatever his reasons - they should disclose that fact to the buyer upfront. When I was browsing the eBay ads for batteries and saw the auctions for $20 batteries with $30 in shipping charges, I was left with a pretty negative impression of the sellers.

aris · #22 Post by **aris** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:03 pm

On a side note to go along with what AlphaKilo470 was saying about governing body taxing. To look at this issue from an economical stand point the person that the taxes fall on depends on the elasticity of demand in the market. The more elastic the demand is the more the tax goes to the "middle-man"; but if the demand is more inelastic the consumer pays a larger part of the tax. To be honest i dont know how elastic the demand is on ebay, but like all markets they "should" reach their equlibrium even if it is shifted by taxes and fees.

#23 Post by **bill bolton** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:41 pm

epbrown wrote:
AlphaKilo470 wrote:No offense, but to me that is unethical. Shipping charges should represent what it costs to ship the item.

I'm intrigued by how you determine exactly "what it costs to ship the item" actually is? In reality it's very rarely just the "sticker" price that the final carrier charges, which is usually all that is readily visible to the receiver.

I do some work in the supply chain space and when the real costs of "shipment" are exposed to vendors they are are often aghast at how many unrecovered costs there are in their "shipping" pricing to customers.

As a customer you certainly can choose who you buy from, but if you are price sensitive then concentrate on the total cost of purchase and not sweat the details of how it is broken down, as there are just too many possible variables, even within quite "ethical" business models, that might be applying.

Cheers,

Bill

Website · #24 Post by **tfflivemb2** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:43 pm

epbrown wrote:
AlphaKilo470 wrote: Still, all honsety it's not so much the fees that annoy me as it is people who tell me it's unethical to add a two or three dollar price hike to the shipping charge to cover my fees.
No offense, but to me that is unethical. Shipping charges should represent what it costs to ship the item.

This is why I generally reference it in my eBay ads specifically as shipping and handling. Businesses do it all the time. How many things are listed on TV or whatever else with $9.99 shipping? Do you think that shipping alone really costs $9.99?

With lighter items that I ship Priority Mail, I use a flat $5 shipping fee. This covers the shipping charge, the delivery confirmation and a little towards the fees. With heavier items, I weight the item and let eBay/USPS automatically configure the price for shipping....then I had a dollar or two, just in case I get to the PO and the total is slightly different. I have weighed items at home and then gotten to the PO and found that they were slightly higher.

I do NOT and will NOT gouge someone in shipping fees. I agree that paying $5-10 for something that only costs a single stamp to mail is ridiculous.

#25 Post by **AlphaKilo470** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:52 pm

I use the rate calculator from the shipping services then tag on a few extra dollars proportional to item price to cover fees since the more expensive the item I sell, the more money I pay in fees. When I sell items here on the forum, I only charge for the item price and shipping price since no costs are incurred in advertising here.

Another aspect aside from fees is that boxes and packaging foam are not cheap and they don't just sprout out of the ground. I usually cut costs (and the savings get passed onto customers) by recycling boxes and packing foam but I still do my monthly price hike so I can buy fresh supply since recycling means you also have to do alot of improvising.

Unfortunatley, my policy of price hikes when necessary seems to draw more negative publicity than the policy adopted by many retailers in which prices are marked up unbeknownst to the consumer simply so they can mark them down and advertise how much the customer is "saving" despite the fact that my policy tends to cost the consumer less in the long run. In all honesty, perception makes the biggest impact, not pricing.

Website · #26 Post by **tfflivemb2** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:59 pm

The biggest problem is that many eBay users expect to get something for nothing. They want $0.99 items with free shipping.

When I am buying, I pay close attention to the shipping costs. As long as it is close to the approximate shipping OR the grand total is still within my spending range, then I am fine.

#27 Post by **AlphaKilo470** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:09 pm

Supply and demand is in effect on the buyer side. Those people who want the 99 cent buy it now with free shipping either learn to open their wallets after awhile or go away. I wouldn't be able to pass my taxes onto the customer if there wasn't a market for my products.

I believe that the majority of sellers as a whole recieve unfair bad publicity from activists because they have obviously not paid much attention in their economics classes in high school and college.

Lets say a group of people gang up against sellers of a given product due to what they call unfair pricing and after time goes by the group succeeds in bringing the prices down to what they define as acceptable. The end result will most likely be that after a short time, that seller goes out of business, the market for that product shrinks, demand raises, costs go up and the product across the board gets more expensive for the consumer.

The age old practice of simply not buying from a malicious seller is the best and most effective way of keeping the supply side of the market in check not to mention least harmful.

dsvochak · #28 Post by **dsvochak** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:47 pm

AlphaKilo470 wrote:

...the more expensive the item I sell, the more money I pay in fees

Which omits the fact that, the more expensive the item the more one puts in one's pocket when it sells.

All I've ever sold on eBay are "collectibles" (the definition of which I drastically expanded after I became an eBay member). The sale price for certain items can be significant.

The market for collectibles (or anything else) on eBay is infinitely larger than is available through virtually any other sales channel. Paying the fees give a seller access to that market.

I simply don't understand complaining about eBay fees. They're just a cost of doing business.

While bill bolton's comments regarding "what it costs to ship the item" are correct, I have never charged for packaging material, time, mileage to post office, UPS, Fed Ex or anything else that might be considered "handling".

However, in a free market sellers can list"...$20 batteries with $30 in shipping charges". Before a buyer bids or "buys it now" he has no obligation to deal with that seller. A bid indicates agreement with the terms of the listing. Once again, the solution is simple: if you think the price (including shipping) is too high, don't bid/buy.

epbrown · #29 Post by **epbrown** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:07 am

bill bolton wrote:I'm intrigued by how you determine exactly "what it costs to ship the item" actually is? In reality it's very rarely just the "sticker" price that the final carrier charges, which is usually all that is readily visible to the receiver.

I do some work in the supply chain space and when the real costs of "shipment" are exposed to vendors they are are often aghast at how many unrecovered costs there are in their "shipping" pricing to customers.

As a customer you certainly can choose who you buy from, but if you are price sensitive then concentrate on the total cost of purchase and not sweat the details of how it is broken down, as there are just too many possible variables, even within quite "ethical" business models, that might be applying.

I do focus on the final price. For example, I wound up buying my battery from a vendor that charges $51.95 for an X30 battery, with "free" shipping. The price is the same as the other seller, except the vendor I picked didn't try to play me for a sucker.

As far as determining the price of packing and shipping an item: I don't do a lot of high volume buying via eBay, just the occasional item now and then (150 auctions over 8 or 9 years), and my typical methodology is USPS Priority Mail since the shipping is fast and inexpensive, and the packing consists of a free box from the post office and last Sunday's Chicago Tribune ($1.79). Maybe it's insane, but I would expect a company shipping hundreds of items a day to get a *better* deal on shipping running to the PO, even accounting for the labor involved. If it actually does cost an eBay seller $20 to attach a shipping label to the factory IBM box and send a 1 lb. item via FedEx Ground, I'm still not likely to buy from them - I'm leery of buying from incompetents too.

#30 Post by **AlphaKilo470** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:22 am

In many cases, the high shipping combined with a low buying price isn't exactly trying to play you as a sucker. Since eBay doesn't tax shipping price, a loophole is created that allows profits to be anyware from marginally to significantly higher. In all honesty, when I'm buying, I don't give a flip what the seller thinks of me just so long as I'm happy with my final combined price and the product I'm purchasing.

People cannot grasp that PCs decrease in value

People cannot grasp that PCs decrease in value

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