On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs

[JHEM]

Some food for thought from an Army bud.

Posted in honor of all who "go in harm's way" on behalf of the flock, be you wearing camos, carrying a badge, carrying a firehose or serving in our courts.

Hopefully, it will serve for the edificatation and enlightenment of the far too many who believe the sheepdogs should be kept out of sight in a box, ill paid and ill served, until needed.

Comments encouraged.

WOOF!

James
Formerly - B314 - 3/5SF

*************************************

On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
By LTC (RET) Dave Grossman, author of "On Killing."

Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always,even death itself. The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for? - William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me:

"Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful.? For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed

Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools.

But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.

Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero?

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.

There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population. There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself.

Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men. - Edmund Burke

Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision.

If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

For example, many officers carry their weapons in church.? They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs.? Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones.

I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"

Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them.

Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have and idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"

It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up.

Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear helplessness and horror at your moment of truth.

Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling."

Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level.

And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes. If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...

"Baa."

This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically at your moment of truth.

[christopher_wolf]

*knocks on door*

Little pigs, little pigs...Let me in!


Although, I *do* prefer to stick with lost little girls in dark woods. Leaner, more athletic, and far prettier meals as opposed to the standard fare pigs or sheep.

Well written and very touching, and that is coming from a Wolf!

Here is looking at you, kid

[bill bolton]

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

Whatever point the story is attempting to make, its weak in respect of the animal behaviour metaphors!

Having spent some time around sheep stations (farms), I have yet to see a "sheepdog" that will face off against a really serious threat.

Cheers,

Bill

[BillMorrow]

james...

a very interesting read..

even though the parallel is imperfect it will suffice..

while reading it i thought "where do i fit"..?

i know i am not a sheep..
nor am i a sheep dog..

i fall somewhere in the middle..

i prepare for "that which i think might come"..

and explain myself by saying "survival is 90% preparation and 10% good luck"..

FWIW, i expected "something" and 9/11 was the first "something" but i fear not the last "something"..

next time the terrorists will collect all the cell phones on the planes..
when that happens, if you are there, you should know that all bets are off and its time to do or die..

[doppelfish]

"Then there are sheepdogs," he [the army veteran] went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."

That's an intriguing position that the verteran puts himself into.
I leave it up to everyone to find out who explained the following to a reporter:

Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of their leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.

I realize that this quote has been shortened from the original. Ironically, the words left out pretty much agree with the 'sheep' proposition in JHEM's posting.

cheers,
-- fish.

[mattbiernat]

"Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

People are hardly like sheep. These animals won’t fight off when attacked by wolves, they will only run because that’s all they can do. Now calling most people like that is inaccurate. Let me give you one example. During Warld War II Poland was attacked by Nazi Germany. Took them almost two months to size over entire country. In 1944 an uprising was organized. Everybody was fighting, women, man and even children.
“Some 40,000 insurgents attacked German positions. They were very poorly armed, with almost nothing but light weapons, and not enough bullets. The Home Army troops were mostly young men and women, often teenagers.” (http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/articl ... le_id=1641) By the end of World War II out of 30 million people Poland remained with 24 million people. Human beings seem to me nothing like sheep. They seem to me more like ants who work for the queens, some divided for laborers and some for soldiers but when the time of war comes everybody fights, the soldiers simply die first and the laborers replace their ranks. And those fighting include men, women and children. So there is simply no division between sheep and wolves. Such comparison may be only valid to distinguish men who fight in proffesional armies but it diminishes people who are regular citizens and who oppose armies that invade their country.

“Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep.”

United States seems to me one of those few nations where denial is an option. We are protected from our enemies by Pacific and Atlantic oceans and thus imminent treat is not an option. In other countires around the world people cannot live in denial. The chance of dying is a very possibility. In my country only mine and my fathers generation was the only one that didn’t have to fight in an armed conflict. Otherwise I would have been raised as to naturally become a partisan at the age of 18 or even earlier than that. In Africa people, millions of people, died during 90s not due to starvation or malnutrition but due to genocide. Asia and Middle east are not much better. United States is a safe heaven for most, this is why we all come here. And while some can live in denial, let us not forget that it is otherwise everywhere else.

“This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior.”

Very few people are “head-in-the-sand-sheep.” People can be brought to a situation when they will choose to die rather than be more degraded. Kant explains this situation very well, “For if justice and righteousness perish, human life will no longer have any value in the world.” Most people are not like animals, and they can experience pain far greater than physical pain. At some point of degredation “putting your head in the sand” will no longer offer protection. This explains why there were man and women of all ages fighting the Nazis and Soviets during World War II. And this explains why Patrick Henry said “give me liberty or give me death.” Thus I would say most people are not like sheep but they are like bears in the state of dormancy and it only takes so much to wake a bear in almost every person.

“Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. “

Almost all leaders who start wars start them for money. Money corrupts and it is the common denominator in all countries who start wars. There were very few wars that started for justice and freedom and most of these were revolutions and uprisings.

“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of their leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.”

As Plato I believe once said, “Republics decline into democracies and democracies decline into dictatorships.”

[JHEM]

Having spent some time around sheep stations (farms), I have yet to see a "sheepdog" that will face off against a really serious threat.

Don't equate a Border Coliie, Kelpie or Koolie, all of which are herders, with a real sheep guardian dog Bill!

Guardian dogs are breeds like Alsatians, Komondors, Great Pyrenees, Tibetan Mastiffs and the majestic Kuvasz.

Regards,

James

[GomJabbar]

Thus I would say most people are not like sheep but they are like bears in the state of dormancy and it only takes so much to wake a bear in almost every person.

I would say there is truth to the above statement. See quote below.

Japanese Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto is credited with saying, after the attack on Pearl Harbor, "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve." The quote has come down to us as one of the most famous lines ever uttered by anyone during World War II.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoroku_Ya ... iant_quote

EDIT: It looks like I might have to eat my words. After posting, I read the rest of the Wikipedia article above, and it states that the above quote may not have been real. However, this does not change my position.

[JHEM]

People are hardly like sheep.

Your long, rambling discourse is appreciated as it makes the point precisely of the difference between the sheepdog and the sheep.

The ~40K Polish partisans, who were sheepdogs, took up arms to protect the ~24 million who were sheep!

If you're attempting to infer that the 6 million reduction in population in Poland somehow means those 6 million died fighting Nazi aggression, you need to educate yourself.

James

[mattbiernat]

People are hardly like sheep.

If you're attempting to infer that the 6 million reduction in population in Poland somehow means those 6 million died fighting Nazi aggression, you need to educate yourself.
James

nope i've never made that assumption. although i can see how you can interpret that this way because that sentance was out of the context.

[censored] im late for my lab... speaking of educating myself

[mattbiernat]

Now i have not joined thinkpads.com to get one of the admins upset at me being a smartpants about sheep and sheepdogs. I just thought that since you posted subject of such controversy you would expect some level of healthy debate. I also argue like that because every time someone proves me wrong i can learn something new. If you want me to stop arguing I can do so at any moment. I

Before we start analyzing each other’s examples lets first analyze how you define sheep versus sheepdogs.

“(F)rom sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.”

“The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. “

“After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes."

“The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes.”

Now having those claims lets analyze how they fit together?

1. “A” is a sheep because they pretend that the wolf will never come
2. “B” is a sheep because they don’t want to be there when the wolf comes
3. “C” is a sheep because they don’t’ save lives of other sheep when the wolf comes
4.
A= sheep, B= sheep, C=sheep thus A=B=C

So the wolf comes…
Lets assume definition 3 is true.
3.“A” is not a sheep because it fights the wolf when it comes
1.“A” is a sheep because it pretends that the wolf will never come
According to definition 3, definition 1 is incorrect.
3. “A” is not a sheep because it fights the wolf when it comes
2. “A’ is a sheep because it doesn’t want to be there when the wolf comes
According to definition 3, definition 2 is incorrect.

Lets assume definition 2 is true
2.“A” is not a sheep because it wants to be there when the wolf comes
1.“A” is a sheep because it pretends that the wolf will never come
According to definition 2, definition 1 is incorrect.
2.“A” is not a sheep because it wants to be there when the wolf comes
3.“A” is a sheep because it doesn’t save lives of other sheep when the wolf comes
According to definition 2, definition 3 is incorrect.

Definition 1,2 and 3 are mutually exclusive. If multiple definitions define the same trait but they exclude each other then the trait they define is not the same trait.

[BillMorrow]

YIKES..!

trying to understand the logic is making me a bit bananas..
i will come back to this after TS Ernesto passes by and my brain is not soggy from the late hour..

i'm sure no admin or mod will chastise you..

[GomJabbar]

@mattbiernat

It appears to me that your; 1, 2, 3, 4; A, B, C; and JHEM's quotes don't seem to line up with each other. It makes your post hard to read.

[mattbiernat]

Im just gonna show you the two sets of definitions and how they fit under each quote. Rest should be pretty obvious if one looks at it a couple of times.

“(F)rom sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.”

3. “A” is a sheep because it doesn't save lives of other sheep when the wolf comes
3. “A” is not a sheep because it fights the wolf when it comes

“The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. “

2. “A” is not a sheep because it wants to be there when the wolf comes
2. “A’ is a sheep because it doesn’t want to be there when the wolf comes

They same to me to fit perfectly. I proved A,B and C to be the same as by definitions they were all sheep. Then i just tested C by combining differents sets of definitions for the same word "sheep."
1,2,3 are all definitions presented in the quotes.
4 is a typo and not a definition.

[JHEM]

Im just gonna show you the two sets of definitions and how they fit under each quote. Rest should be pretty obvious if one looks at it a couple of times.

Pretty fallacious you meant to say!

James

[christopher_wolf]

Im just gonna show you the two sets of definitions and how they fit under each quote. Rest should be pretty obvious if one looks at it a couple of times.

Pretty fallacious you meant to say!

James

Indeed.

I wonder why nobody has talked about the Wolf yet. Ideally, this whole business of being either Sheep and Sheepdog and how you go about identifying such (besides a good look at biology and anatomy) is tedious; at worst, it borders on noise. I posit that it is far easier, and better potentially, in being the Wolf in such as situation as this. Let us examine why (given that long meanderings seem to be favored; yet this will be, by defintion, better );

1.) A Wolf is not a Sheep or a Sheepdog; thereby avoiding any long diatribes about either whilst being more efficient.

2.) A Wolf generally does not require the inefficient trappings of a large society to maintain its upkeep and persistence; sheep, and to a lesser extent, Sheepdogs do. Sheep tend to be rather ungainly and not quite well aligned with the predator/prey cycles in nature. This requires additional effort from outside influences to make them of any use in and of themselves. In addition, it automatically demands the existence of sheepdogs (of which the sheepdog itself might be unwilling) for an implementation of the aforementioned effort to keep them in the flock, alive, and with a modicum of security from light predators.

3.) Wolves either travel in packs or, rarely, strike alone at an opportunity. This requires precise planning and intellectual effort on the part of the Wolf/Wolves to execute a highly complex set of actions involving the prediction and response to the state of an inherently upredictable object, the sheep. Given the plan is thought out and the Wolf can rely on hard work, determination, and toned physical abilities, which Wolves tend to have, it requires little additional effort to obtain the objective; be it a sheep, many sheep, or sheep+sheepdog.

4.) It has been proven many times, in the natural course of things that, against a group of 150lb, intelligent wild hunting machines, that spastic barking and running do little to save oneself, or others, from termination. Indeed, nature favors those who keep a low profile when such a situation occurs. It can only be assumed, therefore, that the Sheepdog is to act as a, particularly loud, warning signal to the sheep; sadly, this may draw more undue attention to the sheepdog from said predators.

5.) The sheepdog is doing its best job against its refined biological ancestors in protecting a group of assests deemed, by someone else, to be as valuable, if not more so, than the life of the sheepdog for some vague purpose that the Sheepdog has little to no understanding of. Given that it is doing its utmost protecting a bunch of randomly walking sweater/meat combo entities that appear to aggregate into occasionally managible groups, it is only to be expected that the burden of protecting many distributed assests of questionable use or utility (sheep, people, users, etc) against an onslaught of very determined and intelligent hunter/killer creatures bent on survival causes undue stress on the Sheepdog for purposes not necessarily aligned with its survival.


The only conclusion that one can come to from this is that the Wolf has the most sane, non-occluded, and purposeful objective whilst the Sheepdog is forced to deal with the Wolves *and* the Sheep unfairly. The solution to be proposed from this is that the Wolf and the Sheepdog have the least amount to change to align their respective goals and the Sheep are the only ones that must bear the burden; namely that of being a food supply and occasional warm blanket. This is nothing new for sheep at large nor should it be inferred that it would profit either group to save the sheep from their natural roles in the due course of their lives.

Enough philosophical thought for now. It is time for a nice lunch of lamb chops; I do hope my good relation, who I have nicknamed "shaggy" for the obvious reasons, will dine with me on such a feast.

Best Regards,

Christopher Wolf

[wswartzendruber]

Hey, if I'm a Sheepdog, do I still get to eat grass?

[JHEM]

Hey, if I'm a Sheepdog, do I still get to eat grass?

No, it gives you the runs.

But you can smoke all you want.

James

[trent9008]

I rather think the whole sheep/dog/wolf analogy is being carried just a tad bit too far.

I think it should be pretty obvious that all people don't fit nicely into 3 categories, and while the analogy may help put things into perspective, it shouldn't be assumed that everyone is a clear-cut "wolf", "sheepdog", or "sheep".

In other words, it isn't black and white. Just read the story and, instead of getting nit-picky over details and wording, think about what the point of the story is.

[BillMorrow]

I was going to unsticky this thread when i put up WAR OR PEACE, just now..
but rereading the first few lines of this, again, i decided to leave it..

for me, i prefer peace, but sometimes the dogs of war come hunting and i would just as soon be ready to defend myself because, in the end, one can only rely on ones self..

[sokos]

I read this topic and i see that, guys who believe this wolf/sheep theory, have no clue of what the western world thinks about your external affairs and politics.

You are becoming a nation that lives out of war and the industry it carries with it. I strongly believe that the wolves, are within your country, the people that pull the strings. I find it very hard to believe that the Arabs who did those horrid things on 911, woke up one day and said, let's go suicide and kill people on the other side of the world.

I m glad to see that there is a large percentage of U.S citizens that disagrees with the war-hungry administration that governs the States. I take my hat off, for you decent people.

[goofyGAguy]

sokos, most of us here in the U.S. really couldn't give a good [censored] what the rest of the world thinks about us.

[BillMorrow]

sokos..

You are becoming a nation that lives out of war and the industry it carries with it.

that is SO wrong..
i might be wrong but you must be very young, impressionable and listening to propaganda..
michael moore is just josef goebbles understudy..
france was against the iraq war because they had huge cash incentinves to stay out and the same with russia..
same with kofi annan at the UN..
the propaganda machine was cranked up..

no one with more than 2 cents to rub together in his (or her) head believed the public reasons for that war..
and its not for oil, for us, either..

if you have all the answers, lets hear them..
go ahead, play like you're the american president..
i would like to hear YOUR plan to bring peace to the planet..

please reread history..
if you DO you will find that, as stated in WAR or PEACE, the thread above, it is NOT the west that has declared war, just recently, on islam..
it is radical islam that has declared war on the rest of the world..
the unbelievers.. and so forth..
who murdered the arch-duke that started WW 1..? check it out..

islam once was a religion of light and learning..
now it seems the light has gone out..

for me, i believe that religion is, at the same time, the best and worst thing that can happen to humanity..

how much war can be attributed to one sect fighting another..
or simple thuggery..?

for the war in iraq, that was the right thing to do but carried out "on the cheap" and with poor guidance and judgement..
and it was like reaching into a cat fight to rescue one cat of the many combatants..
one will always pull back a dead cat and fewer fingers than one started out with..

islam is at war with itself as much as with the west..

YOU of all people, there in greece, should know..

GAguy..
thats not entirely true..
we all must get along..
but the bushies seem NOT to have drawn on the experience of the elder george bush..
i had hoped that junior bush would have taken the best of his fathers administration..
and the republicans were really embarassing the way they out did the dems in pork and croneyism..

we need a new administration AND congress..
and so far no dems and only one or two repubs have shown me what i want to see..
and [censored] little of that..!
clinton should not have marginalized the russians..
clinton should have been tougher on osama when he had him..

we are ALL lucky the USA has been here with guard dogs at the ready..
gawdbless these united states..!!

[Kyocera]

I m glad to see that there is a large percentage of U.S citizens that disagrees with the war-hungry administration that governs the States

Your're wrong, this is why you should get your news somewhere else. There is a larger percentage that agree with it, you were not here in this country on Sept 11, and so many have forgotten how they felt that day that live here, it's pathetic. Every time I look at a digital clock at 9:11 am or pm I F%#ing remember!
And so should everybody else.

[qviri]

france was against the iraq war because they had huge cash incentinves to stay out and the same with russia..

Is it really?

Or can it be that after a few more centuries of experience with conquering the evil enemies du jour, of spreading light, education, and democracy, and of realigning parts of the world to their vision, they have finally come to the realisation that this does not work?

Have you noticed who is opposing the "war on terrorism"?

Germany is.
France is.
The majority of population of Spain is.
We haven't heard much support from Portugal either.

Is it because they all have business dealings with evil dictators?

Is it because they are scared? Is it because it is fashionable to oppose the U.S.?

Or is it because they know better? From previous experience?

[tomh009]

I read this topic and i see that, guys who believe this wolf/sheep theory, have no clue of what the western world thinks about your external affairs and politics. You are becoming a nation that lives out of war and the industry it carries with it./quote]

that is SO wrong.

While I generally avoid commenting on political discussions, I'd like to point out a nuance here: whether or not there is any truth in what sokos believes (ie a nation of war and all that), it is a fact that there are many, many people outside the US that do believe more or less what sokos is saying.

sokos, most of us here in the U.S. really couldn't give a good [censored] what the rest of the world thinks about us.

Of course, it may be that you don't care what anyone else thinks of you. That, too, is a valid position.

Now back to your regularly scheduled political programming ...

[sokos]

sorry for my late reply, i m on seminars abroad, so not much time for foruming.

Well, i m pleased that we have a good discussion here ,
well most of you..

First of all, i don't want to turn this into a flame topic or create any nerves here, we get angry enough at work everyday, i find this forum very nice for sharing my love for this little black beauties and also read interesting views.. cause that's what forums really are.. personal opinions & views.

Thing is, i can't persuade or change somebody's mind and vice versa, we are just expressing our thoughts and sometimes elaborate to have some food for thought.
If i was George W. Bush for a day? Well, first i d try fix the internal problems (such as New Orleans) and then go on fight for freedom on the other side of the world. And yes, i d invade Afghanistan and take out that mofo Osama and come back. This is too much now..

I find the US as a great friend in terms of war, with all west European countries, but when it comes to business, as you said.. it's always money the root of all evil and same time the thing that makes the world go round.

Did you know that IBM had as a premier customer the Nazi party of Adolf Hitler, contributing much into the Holocaust of the Jews? Who pays or has the power, writes the history and the laws of the game.

But funny thing is, I can't find any money issues from France, Spain, Germany in the Iraq war. Bill, France is the country that gave you your national symbol, i think it's on a tiny island outside N.Y.. Don't forget who friends are.
French, German, Spanish, Dutch, Greek, Italians are the blood and soul of what USA is today. You are a very young country with small history and don't have the experience most European countries have had during the centuries. And yes I do appreciate USA coming into WW2 and changing the game but in that way of thinking ancient Greeks (Spartans, Macedonians, Athenians) stopped the Persian superpower invasion into Europe. Without them we would all be speaking Persian and without you, we'd all be speaking German now.

I was reading on Sunday a newspaper last week, it had a very interesting article about an American Marine named Jimmy Massey, he came out open of what is happening in Iraq. He wrote a book called "Kill! Kill! Kill!"
http://www.amazon.fr/Kill-Jimmy-Massey/dp/2755700440

You ll be surprised what the troops and the civilians are going through down there! Unfair for both sides, why is it USA's business to bring peace at the world? I find it very hard to believe that taxpayers give their dollars for peace on the other side of the world, when you have so many people without a house or a decent life in New Orleans, it really sounds absurd.
There is no explanation why petrol is so cheap there..

Yes i do agree with you that there is a portion of Islam fanatics being problematic, but it is like the doctor who says to his patient:
"if your hand hurts, i ll cut your hand and you'll be fine"

It's just a thing called "history-repeats-itself"
It was the Greeks, then Egyptians, then Romans, then Spaniards conquering America, then the French, then the British with the colonies and now it's the USA. But it's a wheel and sometime when our grandchildren will work, it will be somebody else, the Chinese probably.

Kyocera, have you thought WHY did 911 happen?
I do agree that Islam extremists are a bunch of wild moth....rs, but what drove them to do such an awful thing?

Have you ever seen footage of the bombs your airforce dropped on Serbia or Iraq have caused to similarly innocent people?

I m afraid the petrol and the control of resources is the root of all evil nowadays, along with religion.
Politicians will twist any truth (such as Saddams weapons of mass destruction that were never found) and clericals will twist any religious book for their hunger of power.

I don't want to offend any of my fellow friends, as find myself completely neutral, but seeing things as a spectator and not expressing yourself, make you look like a retard.
Truth sucks and hurts, so don't kill the messanger (like Leonidas in Sparta did)

[anthean]

Although it is a work of fiction, I always been touched by the rant of the fictional lawyer, Barney Greenwald, in Herman Wouk's classic The Caine Mutiny:

See, while I was studying law 'n old Keefer here was writing his play for the Theatre Guild, and Willie here was on the playing fields of Prinshton, all that time these birds we call regulars--these stuffy, stupid Prussians, in the Navy and the Army -were manning guns. Course they weren't doing it to save my mom from Hitler, they're doing it for dough, like everybody else does what they do. Question is, in the last analysis--last analysis--what do you do for dough? Old Yellowstain, for dough, was standing guard on this fat dumb and happy country of ours. Meantime me, I was advancing little free non-Prussian life for dough. Of course, we figured in those days, only fools go into armed service. Bad pay, no millionaire future, and You can't call your mind or body your own. Not for sensitive intellectuals. So when all hell broke loose and the Germans started running out of soap and figured, well it's time to come over and melt down old Mrs. Greenwald--who's gonna stop them? Not her boy Barney. Can't stop a Nazi with a lawbook. So I dropped the lawbooks and ran to learn how to fly. Stout fellow. Meantime, and it took a year and a half before I was any good, who was keeping Mama out of the soap dish? Captain Queeg.

I give thanks for the sheepdogs.

(Excerpt kindly provided by the University of Pennsylvania at: http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/ ... -text.html)

[bill bolton]

I came across the quotation recently, which reminded me that wolves are not the only things that kill sheep....

Most curious of all was a parrot that kills sheep. On one great sheep-run this bird killed a thousand sheep in a whole year. He doesn't want the whole sheep, but only the kidney-fat. This restricted taste makes him an expensive bird to support. To get the fat he drives his beak in and rips it out; the wound is mortal. This parrot furnishes a notable example of evolution brought about by changed conditions. When the sheep culture was introduced, it presently brought famine to the parrot by exterminating a kind of grub which had always thitherto been the parrot's diet.

The miseries of hunger made the bird willing to eat raw flesh, since it could get no other food, and it began to pick remnants of meat from sheep skins hung out on the fences to dry. It soon came to prefer sheep meat to any other food, and by and by it came to prefer the kidney-fat to any other detail of the sheep. The parrot's bill was not well shaped for digging out the fat, but Nature fixed that matter; she altered the bill's shape, and now the parrot can dig out kidney-fat better than the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, or anybody else, for that matter -- even an Admiral.

.... and that traditonal "warrior" responses (aka sheep dogs) are only effective against certain classes of threat!

Cheers,

Bill B.

[mattbiernat]

sokos..

You are becoming a nation that lives out of war and the industry it carries with it.

that is SO wrong..
i might be wrong but you must be very young, impressionable and listening to propaganda..

propaganda can work both ways. to me Micheal Moor is no more reliable source of truth than President Bush.