Just returned two T42's....what next, please help!!!

[aamsel]

Well, I just returned two Thinkpads under the 30 day money-back policy.
1.) Model 2378FVU, 14.1" SXGA+
Problems were:
- EXTREMELY limited viewing angles, horizontal and vertical (I only cared about the vertical). There was a very, very tiny sweet spot.
- Backlight leakage, plus the bottom of the screen (about 1") was more illuminated than the rest of the screen.
- One dead pixel
- Flimsy top cover. I had read that the Thinkpads have a super-strong cover, but if you run your fingers across the top cover with the machine on, you can see the LCD "ripple".
- I got the "bad" keyboard (Chinese) and the "bad" battery (Sanyo). I do realize that IBM would have remedied these, but I was ready to send it back anyhow because of the other issues.

2.) Model 2379DXU, 15" SXGA+ with Flexview screen
This notebook was overall much more solid than the notebook #1 above, but I did not like the screen overall. It did not have ghosting in DVD playback that I saw (I don't game much) but the screen was overall unappealing. It looked "washed out" as far as the colors. The blacks and whites were not very black and white. I was not very impressed with my first look at Flexview.
- Also, I got the "bad" (Chinese) keyboard and the "bad" (Sanyo) battery.

What the heck do I get now. I thought that the Thinkpads were the "creme de la creme" but they seemed overall quite average. Maybe it was just the models I ordered, don't know???

Also, I am quite sure that XGA or WXGA is all that I need in a small, light machine.

On the larger end, I can get an HP nc6000 with XGA, or a Compaq x1000/HP zt3000/HP nx7010 with WXGA.

I would try another Thinkpad, but all they offer in XGA has only a 7500 card. I would be interested in an X31, but I can't do a system that ONLY has Glidepoint and no touchpad.

In the smaller varieties, there is the SONY 12" V505 series. Not worth it???

I do not want a notebook with the shiny, reflective screen like the XBrite or Crystal View.

I would like the highest possible build quality, and good warranty that accidental damage protection can be added to. I don't know anyone other than IBM or HP that offer this at a reasonable price???

I could go for the 6.5 pound Compaq/HP widescreen, but it is really heavier than I want.

PLEASE OFFER SUGGESTIONS:
I had it down to one of the above Thinkpads, and now that I didn't like either of them, I have no ideas.
XGA or WXGA only please.

Thanks,

Andrew
Austin, TX

[Biggie2]

Why not just get a nc6000... I know its a little bigger than you want, but they dont make the notebook you want. Your not going to get a 12.1" screen with anything other than Intel Shared Graphics... certainly not a card as good as the 7500 you previously said you do not want. Futhermore a 12.1 screen will probably be too small for your eyes. So 12.1 aint gonna work... Move up the list and we have Tecra M2, T42, and nc6000 all with 14.1 or 15 inch screens... Youve tried the infamous T series and it didnt work out... Tecra M2 just seems like a middle of the road notebook (although my cousin recently bought one because he has had some problems with HP and didnt have enough money to get a Thinkpad)... So anyways your left with the nc6000 with XGA and great reviews from most publications...

Seems to me the only option you have right now is the nc6000...

Furthermore though, your gonna have to make some sacrifices here. The general concensus of the Thinkpads Samsung 14.1 and of course the IDTech Flexview is that they are good screens. Havent read too many people complain about the screens being bad.

And the keyboard whether Chinese or not (arrow key flex and all) is still better than any keyboard ive ever tried...

[Flightvector]

I don't clearly see how the Flexview looks washed out to you, it couldn't be more opposite of that in my opinion. Unless you had it on battery power or it was a bad screen, I am not too sure that you will really like any other screens. I do a lot of photo editing (fixing colors) and the Flexview has excellent contrast and white/black levels. Flexview is much better than the 14s in any case.

[Hangfire]

Could not be happier with mine!

[teknerd122]

Saw a t42 with the Thai keyboard (blue bumpers, right?) on display and was thoroughly unimpressed. The keyboard moves up and down near the arrow keys - so much so that you'd think it wasn't screwed down properly. Also, there was an unbearable creak in the left wristpad (mind you, I was in a crowded bookstore). What is up with IBM? Why should customers have to shave off nubs and stuff business cards in odd places just to "fix" quality control issues? I thought it was just Apple that was getting bad...but now it seems like it's just a generally bad time to purchase a laptop!

[Greg Gebhardt]

If you were not happy with the 15" flexview, you are not going to be happy with any notebook.

The 15" flex on my 2373KXU is by far the best I have used and I have owned many.

[jschunkew]

Did you attempt to make any
adjustments to the graphics, or just
take a peek and box it back up?
Some folks were not satisfied with
the graphics until they used AC vs. the
battery. The keyboard is not "bad",
though it may not be as good as the
other. How about the noises? Any fan
howl or hitachi dirve whine? Maybe
you should get a second monitor, like
a 19" Samsung to suit your particular
tastes.

[benz]

Seems to me you are very picky, almost too much. Good luck finding a laptop that works for you, but from what you have expressed here I think you will have a hard time doing that......they all have their problems man, nothing is perfect.

[icuvist]

I have friends who have bought a Voodoo PC laptop and one who has an Alienware Sentia and Area-51 laptop. You might consider these since I hear that they use top components and cost just as much as ThinkPads. Yet, I still support the build quality of the ThinkPads over other brands.

[esquire]

Wow thats like a bummer man. I got a dxu and it works great. No keyboard problems (and I think I even have the cheap one!), no screen issues.... incidently did you adjust the default gamma/colour/contrast settings? I found the default wasn't to my liking but after a little tweaking its perfect. IMO.

[K. Eng]

A few comments:

On the 14" T4x
- Some panels exhibit awful viewing angles, some seem ok. I'm not sure what is going on here.
- Backlight leakage is indicative of slopply manufacturing. The LCD wasn't mounted properly or the parts don't fit correctly. On my T40 the bottom 1" of the screen is also more illuminated (and washed out) than the rest of the screen
- Dead pixels happen because LCD manufacturers are artificially trying to boost yields at the expense of consumers
- Top cover - Your experience puzzles me. The magnesium LCD housing on my T40 feels very solid, and I am unable to cause a ripple by running my fingers across the cover or tapping it. It could be that the LCD was mounted incorrectly.

It looks like you may want to try an HP nc6000 if none of the ThinkPads are working out for you.

Whatever you do, don't go with the Dell 600m or D600 series - the keyboards are complete garbage on those models, even if the rest of the machine is more or less ok.

[Chun-Yu]

My T41 is also very solid and to make the LCD ripple even a tiny bit you have to push the back *really* hard. On a T41p I saw recently, the top cover was also quite flimly and it was easy to cause a ripple on the LCD just by pressing the back lightly. I don't think new T4xs are built as well as T40s or early T41s (either that or there has always been 2 different top panels). The newer T41s I've seen lately all seem more flimsy than mine.

[darrenf]

K. Eng,

Set up your laptop with a dark background (blue or black) and you should see the ripple. It doesn't show up well with a white screen and is not nearly as obvious as you might be expecting. It's nothing like laptops of old with thin plastic shells where you could push on the back of the screen and cause a multi-colored spot to appear. I've pushed pretty hard and have never seen anything like that on a ThinkPad.

-darren

[K. Eng]

Ok... just got back from lunch and I decided to try the "ripple test".

I removed the IBM Americas wallpaper and set the background to black. Then I ran my index finger horizontally across the back of the LCD cover from left to right.

At the top of the LCD there was no discernable effect at all.
About 1/3 of the way down there was a slight ripple that I could see when the background was black, but I cannot see it when I have my wallpaper up and applications open
I detect no ripples in the remaining 2/3 of the screen, black background or not.

I ran this test several times and I could only find one "soft spot" 1/3 of the way down the back of the LCD where the small ripple occured.

Illustration of 14" LCD housing. You are facing the screen and not the back in this illustration. OK = entire horizontal length exhibited no defects. r = ripple seen at specific point.

|---------------------|
|OK
| r
|OK
|OK
|OK
|OK
|---------------------|

I'm not at all worried. I couldn't even detect this small ripple without jumping through hoops (unlike my stuck pixel, which is obvious sometimes).

I haven't seen any of the newer T4x's so I can't confirm Chun-Yu's conclusions, but I would not be surprised if he is correct...

K. Eng,

Set up your laptop with a dark background (blue or black) and you should see the ripple.
...
-darren

[aamsel]

As for the 2379DXU - YES, I did make sure it was running on A/C and that the power settings were set to max. Also, I did tweak the color/gamma/contrast/brightness settings as far as they would allow.
The Flexview I had just seemed "washed out" and unimpressive.
It did have great viewing angles, however.
It was almost a "screen door" effect looking at it.

As for the 2378FVU, it was just too messed up to consider, with the dead pixel and overall flimsiness and backlight leakage and uneven screen lighting and really bad viewing angles. Just too many negatives.

Since I really want just an XGA (or WXGA if I absolutely have to) there just don't seem to be any choices that don't have a 7500 card, as far as Thinkpads. As I said, I really want a good warranty plus accidental damage protection, so there isn't much other than IBM or HP.

The quality of, at least the 2378FVU was not what I would have expected from IBM. It made me wonder if they had "cheapened" this unit since it is lower priced??? The 2389DXU was MUCH more solid, no comparison, just didn't have a wonderful screen, as I said above and in my original post.

Suggestions MORE than welcome, please!!
(but, there are NO other XGA options with Thinkpad are there??)

Andrew
Austin, TX

[Greg Gebhardt]

As for the 2379DXU - YES, I did make sure it was running on A/C and that the power settings were set to max. Also, I did tweak the color/gamma/contrast/brightness settings as far as they would allow.
The Flexview I had just seemed "washed out" and unimpressive.
It did have great viewing angles, however.
It was almost a "screen door" effect looking at it.

As for the 2378FVU, it was just too messed up to consider, with the dead pixel and overall flimsiness and backlight leakage and uneven screen lighting and really bad viewing angles. Just too many negatives.

Since I really want just an XGA (or WXGA if I absolutely have to) there just don't seem to be any choices that don't have a 7500 card, as far as Thinkpads. As I said, I really want a good warranty plus accidental damage protection, so there isn't much other than IBM or HP.

The quality of, at least the 2378FVU was not what I would have expected from IBM. It made me wonder if they had "cheapened" this unit since it is lower priced??? The 2389DXU was MUCH more solid, no comparison, just didn't have a wonderful screen, as I said above and in my original post.

Suggestions MORE than welcome, please!!
(but, there are NO other XGA options with Thinkpad are there??)

Andrew
Austin, TX

TOSHIBA!

[aamsel]

Which current Toshiba (lightweight, high quality with XGA) are you referring to??? The latest Tecra M2 review I read said that that keyboard had a LOT of flex.

Andrew
Austin, TX

[darrenf]

FWIW, the 2378FVU does appear to have a better palmrest than the older T-models. The underside of it has some swirls cut into the plastic (hard to describe) and there is significantly less flex than in older models.

Mine came with the Chinese keyboard which was a problem (and has been fixed). I also griped about the screen brightness until I was told about the BIOS setting to allow max brightness on battery. Other than the cheap keyboard, my FVU doesn't seem to have any problems not present on other T-series models.

-darren

[Greg Gebhardt]

Which current Toshiba (lightweight, high quality with XGA) are you referring to??? The latest Tecra M2 review I read said that that keyboard had a LOT of flex.

Andrew
Austin, TX

It was a JOKE!

You will find no better than the 2373KXU. I am enjoying mine but I doubt if it would make you happy.

These are just laptops, not life long investments.

[aamsel]

So, very poor viewing angles are standard for any 14.1" screen???

Andrew
Austin, TX

...Other than the cheap keyboard, my FVU doesn't seem to have any problems not present on other T-series models.

-darren

[geobel]

Sony and Fujitsu make few models with high-end LCDs. Haven't ever owned but have seen in shops: at least screens look very appealing. Some say Sony (xBright) and Fujitsu (Crystal view) LCDs are too reflective but I would say it is the matter of taste. The reflective surface gives quite different feel that you may appreciate. Besides at least Crystal view are MVA panels and are principally different from IPS Flexview. So checkout Fujitsu and Sony, you can find both in retail stores. Important you should find models with xBright or Crystal view screens.

Gosha

UPDATE
I bet wash-out feel of Flexview is due to antireflective coating. So ones again, try reflective LCDs...

[darrenf]

So, very poor viewing angles are standard for any 14.1" screen???

Andrew
Austin, TX

I guess so. The thinkpad screen is one of the better ones I've worked with, but I wouldn't call it much better or worse than others. I've not seen the xBright screen, so I don't have a basis for comparison. I was not very impressed by the flexview I worked with for a couple of days, but only in that it didn't strike me as signficantly different from my screen. I didn't specifically compare viewing angle, I was looking for the brightness that 50% more power consumption would yield.

All LCDs solarize based on viewig angle which is why they are no good for color-correct work like editing photographs and video.

As I see it, either you have an unrealistic expectation of laptop screens (which I doubt because it sounds like you've owned several) or you had a genuinely defective display.

BTW: I agree that the 15" unit feels more solid. A big part of this, I would guess, is the integrated plastic piece that acts as the palm rest and goes all the way around the keyboard. I didn't take it apart, but I would guess that it has more plastic in the corners where the case was expanded to fit the lid and therefore has more structure in some of the places that are a bit creaky (sp?) on the 14". I prefer (and use) the 14" because I need the smaller size, but I did like the solid feel of the 15".

-darren

[aamsel]

I don't like any of the reflective screens. None of them at all, and I have seen almost all of them locally, SONY, Fujitsu, some of the new HP's etc. all have the glossy screens. I DON'T want one.
I want the best standard LCD (matte or anti-glare) which I thought would be the Flexview.

Andrew
Austin, TX

Sony and Fujitsu make few models with high-end LCDs. Haven't ever owned but have seen in shops: at least screens look very appealing. Some say Sony (xBright) and Fujitsu (Crystal view) LCDs are too reflective but I would say it is the matter of taste. The reflective surface gives quite different feel that you may appreciate. Besides at least Crystal view are MVA panels and are principally different from IPS Flexview. So checkout Fujitsu and Sony, you can find both in retail stores. Important you should find models with xBright or Crystal view screens.

Gosha

UPDATE
I bet wash-out feel of Flexview is due to antireflective coating. So ones again, try reflective LCDs...

[aamsel]

I have seen MANY, MANY laptop screens, so I am not unrealistic in my expectations, other than I would like to pay for, and receive a really nice screen. If IBM is out to cut their costs to the point where I have to receive a product as poorly made as the 2378FVU that I received, then the quality is definately quickly on its way down.
Yes, the 2379DXU was way, way more solid. Not just the base and keyboard surround but the screen and its cover material. EVERYTHING. Just a much more substantial piece of equipment, which, of course, is larger and heavier.
So, are we saying that there can not be thin and light without there being flimsy???
And, how the heck can I know if the Flexview model I got was defective or normal?? Order another, then, if it is the same, order a 3rd, hoping for "best 3 out of 5"???? To me, this is why it is infuriating to order something that you can't see in a store.


Andrew
Austin, TX

So, very poor viewing angles are standard for any 14.1" screen???

Andrew
Austin, TX

I guess so. The thinkpad screen is one of the better ones I've worked with, but I wouldn't call it much better or worse than others. I've not seen the xBright screen, so I don't have a basis for comparison. I was not very impressed by the flexview I worked with for a couple of days, but only in that it didn't strike me as signficantly different from my screen. I didn't specifically compare viewing angle, I was looking for the brightness that 50% more power consumption would yield.

All LCDs solarize based on viewig angle which is why they are no good for color-correct work like editing photographs and video.

As I see it, either you have an unrealistic expectation of laptop screens (which I doubt because it sounds like you've owned several) or you had a genuinely defective display.

BTW: I agree that the 15" unit feels more solid. A big part of this, I would guess, is the integrated plastic piece that acts as the palm rest and goes all the way around the keyboard. I didn't take it apart, but I would guess that it has more plastic in the corners where the case was expanded to fit the lid and therefore has more structure in some of the places that are a bit creaky (sp?) on the 14". I prefer (and use) the 14" because I need the smaller size, but I did like the solid feel of the 15".

-darren

[K. Eng]

I'm afraid so. As far as I know the magnesium alloys and titanium composite parts IBM uses are the most advanced materials practical for mass production of notebooks.

If you compare a T23 (roughly 5.4-5 lbs) and a 14" T4x (4.9 lbs) the difference is substantial. The T23 feels very solid, while the T4x feels adequate but not as sturdy.

So, are we saying that there can not be thin and light without there being flimsy???

You would have to compare it to another one. Find someone who owns a FlexView equiped machine, or order another one.

I agree that it is a PITA to order without seeing it first, but I don't think there are many places that have ThinkPads on display. University computer stores sometimes have them.

And, how the heck can I know if the Flexview model I got was defective or normal?? Order another, then, if it is the same, order a 3rd, hoping for "best 3 out of 5"???? To me, this is why it is infuriating to order something that you can't see in a store.

[aamsel]

What is a T23 ????

Are these listed somewhere in TABOOK???

Andrew
Austin, TX

[K. Eng]

The T23 is a 4th revision T2x type (introduced in summer 2001, now no longer produced) notebook based on the Pentium III-M (0.13u Pentium III with 512KB L2 cache, 133 MHz FSB) and Intel 830 series chipset. Like all members of the T series, it has a single removable optical bay.

Its base and LCD housing are both composed of titanium composites, and the whole unit is is roughly 1.3" thick. A google search would probably reveal more reviews and specs.

I like the T23's build and design. However, its graphics are weak (16MB SuperSavage) and some people consider the keyboard too soft (it's not mushy or flexy, but the keys don't have the same solid strike to them that the keys on the 600X or T4x have).

What is a T23 ????

Are these listed somewhere in TABOOK???

Andrew
Austin, TX