Between these 2 laptops: A possible new T43 and refurb T42

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crashnburn · #1 Post by **crashnburn** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:38 pm

The only reason I have the T42 is that it has the 1400x1050 SXGA+ screen. Its refurb from the company.

I want to see if I can swap the SXGA+ screen and other good stuff into the T43 or the other way around. Get the best of both the laptops into one.

I am going to put down hardware configs for both so please do advise.

Thinkpad T43
Model 1875-DLU

Intel P-M 1.73 GHz
367 MHz
0.99GB RAM
1024x768
Intel 915GM, 910 GML Express Chipset Family
Matshita DVD CDRW ??????????????
IBM Integrated 56k modem
Standard Juniper Modem ??????
IBM Thinkpad 1024 x 1768 LCD panel
Broadcom NetXtreme Gigabit Ethernet ????????
Intel Pro Wireless 2200 BG Network Connection
Texas Instruments PCI-1510 CardBus Controller ????
Communications Port (COM1)
VCP For Network Connect (COM9) ???????????
SoundMax Integrated Digital Audio

Thinkpad T42
Model 2374 - M97
12 / 04

Intel P-M 1.8Ghz
598 MHz
1.00GB RAM
1400x1050 SXGA+
ATI Mobility Radeon 7500 ******************
HL-DT-ST RW/DVD GCC-4242N ??????????????
IBM Integrated 56K Modem
IBM Thinkpad 1400x1050 LCD Panel
Intel PRO/1000 MT Mobile Connection ????????
Intel PRO/Wireless 200BG Network Connection
Texas Instruments PCI-4520 CardBus Controller ????
Communications Port (COM1)
SoundMax Integrated Digital Audio

EDIT: I finally got the configurations of the machines. Can someone please suggest on the following:

1) Which parts if at all are "EASILY" PORTABLE / SWAPPABLE between these 2 machines
2) Which of the parts are swappable but not that easily?
3) Please comment on the items marked with ???? marks. Is one of them better than the other?

I am sure that the ones marked **** are better. I see that the Video Card & Screen are WAY BETTER in the T42. Swappability?

I am guessing the memory speed / bus speed is less for the T42 and wonder if that makes a real difference in performance.

EOMtp · #2 Post by **EOMtp** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:50 pm

There is nothing on that particular T43 platform that is better than what is found on even the least capable T42 platform ... except, perhaps, the remaining warranty period.

Perhaps the battery on the T43 has fewer cycles, perhaps the keyboard is in better shape, perhaps the T42 does not have a CD-RW drive, perhaps the hard drive of the T43 is bigger/faster ... in other words, look at the user swappable parts, but use the T42 as the base platform ... unless the warranty trumps technical considerations.

christopher_wolf · #3 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 4:10 pm

EOMtp wrote: There is nothing on that particular T43 platform that is better than what is found on even the least capable T42 platform ... except, perhaps, the remaining warranty period.

Perhaps the battery on the T43 has fewer cycles, perhaps the keyboard is in better shape, perhaps the T42 does not have a CD-RW drive, perhaps the hard drive of the T43 is bigger/faster ... in other words, look at the user swappable parts, but use the T42 as the base platform ... unless the warranty trumps technical considerations.

The T43 by default has some things that are plain faster than the T42, technically; higher memory clocks, higher FSB, etc. I would, however, look at that T42 as the main machine. That is a lower end T43 you are comparing with a midrange T42 system, there isn't much of a difference when it comes to operation in most cases then. Of course this depends on the exact configuration of the T42, which has yet to be posted.

EOMtp · #4 Post by **EOMtp** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 4:22 pm

christopher_wolf wrote:The T43 by default has some things that are plain faster than the T42, technically; higher memory clocks, higher FSB, etc.

"Technically" indeed, since little or nothing in the real world can "see" those theoretical benefits. That's the point I wanted to emphasize for him. As you know, those potential benefits are just hot air (pun intended!).

christopher_wolf · #5 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 4:57 pm

EOMtp wrote:
christopher_wolf wrote:The T43 by default has some things that are plain faster than the T42, technically; higher memory clocks, higher FSB, etc.
"Technically" indeed, since little or nothing in the real world can "see" those theoretical benefits. That's the point I wanted to emphasize for him. As you know, those potential benefits are just hot air (pun intended!).

Err, it isn't hot air as I do indeed get significantly better performance on my T43 when doing *very* heavy workloads as compared to T42 with the same feature set; I got my T43 after a similar deliberation. That was my main reason for doing so as it took about a month or so for me to decide after I weighed everything carefully and I did make the right decision.

The thing here is, however, that the T42 in the OP sounds *as if* it is a midrange-higer end T42 model whilst the 1875 T43 is a lower end T43 that has, in its feature set, features that are the same or lower than the aforementioned T42. It doesn't really make sense to get rid of a T42 with better features and replace it with a T43 that doesn't have such features; the reasons one might do this are either because, as you pointed out, the warranty is much better on the T43, or certain abilities that only the T43 has are required and it can be upgraded easily in the future.

EOMtp · #6 Post by **EOMtp** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 5:14 pm

Christopher: Please look at your private messages.

crashnburn · #7 Post by **crashnburn** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 6:16 pm

Thank you very much for the insights. I appreciate these coming so soon. But, I'd hope that you'd take a look sometime tomorrow when I post the T42 information.

PS: I am not concerned about warrant etc due to the company.

Aroc · #8 Post by **Aroc** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:15 am

That T43 looses on the screen alone (XGA). Get the SXGA+ (T42).

crashnburn · #9 Post by **crashnburn** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:10 pm

Information updated. Need advise now.

If part swapping is not convenient I might just do a HDD swap or Migration or one of the alternatives from this thread.

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... highlight=

crashnburn · #10 Post by **crashnburn** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:43 pm

IN ADDITION TO THE INTERNAL PARTS / THE HEART.

What external body parts are easily swappable. The T42 is an old refurb with a lot of scratches and sticky surfaces. T43 has a few scratches too.

Also, links to how and where I can get instructions on doing these swaps would be great as well.

EOMtp · #11 Post by **EOMtp** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 4:14 pm

Each and every part of a T42 and a T43 is swappable, EXCEPT:
(1) The modem/BT add-on card, which can move from T42 to T43, but not necessarily from T43 to T42.
(2) The PC Card "cage", which is specific to a T42 or a T43.

Harware Maintenance Manual:
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... MIGR-58837

crashnburn · #12 Post by **crashnburn** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 6:37 pm

EOMtp wrote:Each and every part of a T42 and a T43 is swappable, EXCEPT:
(1) The modem/BT add-on card, which can move from T42 to T43, but not necessarily from T43 to T42.
(2) The PC Card "cage", which is specific to a T42 or a T43.

Harware Maintenance Manual:
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... MIGR-58837

Thanks EOMtp. Can you and some veterans suggest the direction to take based on the parts described above?

Move things from T42 to T43 or T42 to T43?
If so then which parts to do and which would be easier?

christopher_wolf · #13 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 8:39 pm

The memory the T43 uses is different as well. The CPU cannot easily be swapped from a T43 to a T42; in fact, a board swap would actually be easier in such a case. Although then you would have to deal with the differences in the PC Card cages, as EOMtp noted, because the T43 has 1 PCMCIA slot on the bottom and one PC Express Card slot on the top whereas the T42 just has two PCMCIA card slots.

crashnburn · #14 Post by **crashnburn** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:14 pm

I think I gave up on the MAJOR part swap idea. Too much effort.

This is more core interest in swapping.

1400x1050 SXGA+
ATI Mobility Radeon 7500 ******************

v/s

1024x768
Intel 915GM, 910 GML Express Chipset Family

ONE QUESTION: Which of these OPTICAL DRIVES IS BETTER?

HL-DT-ST RW/DVD GCC-4242N ??????????????
OR
Matshita DVD CDRW ??????????????

Besides this the only thing I really might be interested in swapping would be things that are EASY to SWAP.

Like for e.g. A keyboard cover, A HDD, LCD cover, Battery etc.

Maybe something that needs a couple of screws and clip/snaps.

Beyond that I dont know if I have the energy and patience.

I know if would differ for everyone.. but Can someone please suggest some TANGIBLE SWAPS.

christopher_wolf · #15 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:31 pm

You can't swap the GPUs, they are soldered onto the mobos and, for all practical purposes, cannot be interchanged and/or upgraded easily. The LCD isn't going to be easy either, probably far too much effort for the gain you would get.

As to which optical drive is better? I don't really think you could tell the difference unless there was a huge speed delta between the two. I have always like the Matshita drives myself. Those are very easy to swap.

Keyboards, HDDs, HDD caddies, Battery, LCD Cover, Palmrest, etc are all easily swappable between that T43 and that T42. It is the exact same chassis except for a few small internals.

bfgun · #16 Post by **bfgun** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 11:08 pm

The GPU on the t43 is a 128 mb intel video vs a 32 mb ati. The CDRW are probably the same speeds anyways.

I'd go with the t43 simply because of the higher FSB speed - 400 vs 533. Also cpu speeds - 1.73 vs 1.86 (1730 MHz with a 400 FXB vs a 1860 MHz with a 533 FSB) That there shows who has the performance gain.

You could look at the keyboard on the t42 and see if it's made in Thailand and check the t43. Thailand keyboards are a hot thing on this site. I would know, i have two backups for my t43 machine. heeh

but if screen resolution is an absolue must, then get the higher one. But if you can live with the lower resolution, then i'd opt for the t43.

T43 has my vote.

EOMtp · #17 Post by **EOMtp** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 11:58 pm

Re: the screen:
The "tops" of the two machines are interchageable. Therefore, if you want the T43 base with the T42's top (Note: this would not be my choice), then know that you can remove each top from its base by removing 5 easily-accessible screws after you have removed the keyboard bezel.

On the other hand, if your intention is to open the LCD covers and swap the LCD panels, then I suggest you forego that adventure.

crashnburn · #18 Post by **crashnburn** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:33 am

POINT TO NOTE: I cant work on the XGA. It doesnt have the working space I need and I have to keep changing and scrolling things. SXGA+ is a must.

Going from what everyones recommending I am going to look at making the most of the following things:

Keyboards, HDDs, HDD caddies, Battery, LCD Cover, Palmrest, etc are all easily swappable between that T43 and that T42. It is the exact same chassis except for a few small internals.

What about the LCD cover? I believe you meant what EOMtp said here..

The "tops" of the two machines are interchageable. Therefore, if you want the T43 base with the T42's top (Note: this would not be my choice), then know that you can remove each top from its base by removing 5 easily-accessible screws after you have removed the keyboard bezel.

I probably wont have the energy to remove the LCD covers and swap the panels. Too much effort.

Let's say the tops are swappable, would THIS Intel GPU support the SXGA+ screen from the T42? (top only?)

The GPU on the t43 is a 128 mb intel video vs a 32 mb ati.

Is this Intel GPU better than the ATI Radeon that as mentioned here? I am guessing the Intel is using SHARED MEMORY and the ATI is using dedicated memory. Also the ATI board talks AGP etc. I might be a little old school here.. since the last time I remember AGP was good / better.

What's the final word on the GPU's. Which one is better?

Summary of Qs:
1) Which GPU is better?
2) If Intel is better GPU then can the Intel support the SXGA+ screen?
3) How do I determine which OPTICAL drive is which model? (cryptic names). Would you say the newer machine would have the better model ?

4) Also, since this machine did not come with a Bluetooth. What would be the best way of going about and installing one in there? (Hopefully, preferrably one thats compatible with a better BT stack like the WIDCOMM stack...that I installed on my Dell machine with a Toshiba BT 350 device)
- How do I check if I can do it?
- What model of BT device do I need to buy?
- Whats the best (assurance) / cheapest (price) place to buy it from?

Many thanks to all of you for your insights. I really appreciate it.

bfgun · #19 Post by **bfgun** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:53 am

Intel GPU has it's own dedicated ram.
Does not use the system RAM.

EOMtp · #20 Post by **EOMtp** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:07 am

crashnburn wrote:1) Which GPU is better?
2) If Intel is better GPU then can the Intel support the SXGA+ screen?

Both GPUs can support both screens. For the vast majority of users, the question of which GPU is better is moot -- they are both plenty good enough! Let me put it this way: If you don't already know the answer, then there is very very little probability that the difference will matter to your usage of the machine.

What you will notice is the fan on the T43 running noticeably more often than the fan on the T42, notwithstanding customized fan control software settings. The fan on a T42 like the one you describe is almost always off. For some people, that difference alone trumps other considerations of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, i.e., with respect, I think you are agonizing way too much about way too little ... You can't make a mistake given the choices you present. Trust whatever decision you make.

ParzanM · #21 Post by **ParzanM** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:32 am

I would go with the T42 since it has the high res screen plus the ati card isnt the best but it can do some gaming.

bfgun · #22 Post by **bfgun** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:02 am

32 mb vs 128 mb on the intel.

I played quake arena and unreal tournament, worked GREAT.

If you have both machines, simply install some games and see how they fare. that'll give you the real answer.

sounds like we're starting to beat a dead horse.

ParzanM · #23 Post by **ParzanM** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:10 am

True the intel will have 128MB of graphics but doesnt it use slower system ram instead of gpu ram? Also with the ati 32mb you will not be able to play the newest games but most older games will work no problem. At least for me they worked. I think it would also help if you have at least 1GB with the 32MB graphics.

My friend has a Dell insp 6000(with the defective sony battery lol) and he has the intel integrated graphics with only 512MB of system ram and he has played prince of persia on it no problems. so im guessing the intel graphics arernt that bad!

Parzan

crashnburn · #24 Post by **crashnburn** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:39 pm

Both GPUs can support both screens. For the vast majority of users, the question of which GPU is better is moot -- they are both plenty good enough!

Well maybe I should put it in another way..

Let me put it this way: If you don't already know the answer, then there is very very little probability that the difference will matter to your usage of the machine.

I do understand the difference.. see I have a Dell 17"er with an NVIDIA 256 MB GeForce etc.. yada yada..

I know that from when I was an active hardware follower.. AGP cards trumped PCI ones.. and Video Cards with Inbuilt RAM were better than Shared Memory Video Cards.

I am a little out of touch and hence dont have a comparative on these two cards. Hence, I am requesting some insights based on what "vintage" knowledge & understanding I have. Oh and that Graduate Degree in Computing.

.

I really seek your insight in the "current scope of this domain".

SideNote: Are there are any threads that really discuss T42 vs T43 in general ? (not high priority.. lets focus on the above Qs).

32 mb vs 128 mb on the intel.

I played quake arena and unreal tournament, worked GREAT.

If you have both machines, simply install some games and see how they fare. that'll give you the real answer.

sounds like we're starting to beat a dead horse.

?? What??

True the intel will have 128MB of graphics but doesnt it use slower system ram instead of gpu ram?

I think my old school knowledge agrees with this.. but I am not too sure since the above two opinions oppose each other.

Now to give a real insight.

MY USAGE OF THIS MACHINE:

- Lots & lots of application windows.. Lots of HUGE PPTs open at the same time, couple of large word doc instances, huge bunch of IE windows and couple of Visio documents & OUTLOOK open all the time. IM clients (MSN, Yahoo, AIM, Trillian).

Having 15-20 at times 25 windows open at the same time would not be unusual in my case.

On the odd day or so I might play with XMLSpy, or a Virtual PC/ VMWare instance with some isolated product platform on a WinServer instance.

- Its a work machine and I probably dont really plan to play games.. and havent yet done so.. maybe I will. (I havent installed or had the time to install a single game to utilize the NVIDIA 256 MB dedicated .. on my personal dell).

- I intend to take this upto 2GB RAM for now. (I dont know if more than that is possible)

Given the above.. which video card is better?

- Laptop fan sound is not a big issue for me.
- Battery life would be nice. I hear T42 has an edge on the T43 there.. but I'll live or get that extended battery

- SEAMLESS HIBERNATE & IBM ACCESS CONNECTIONS
-I have not seen a more foolproof hibernate with any other laptop as the current T43 im using. I am guessing the T42 is the same
- Same thing with IBM Access Conns.. amazing thing.. starts and fixes everything I need, wherever I am. (Always had non IBMs before).

christopher_wolf · #25 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:41 pm

Given the above? Either Video card would do perfectly fine. I would be very suprised if you even noticed a difference between the two if the majotify of your work is going to be office operations and VMware instances. I have done that and more, sometimes exceeding 50 windows, on an X40 (with an Intel GPU and CPU)...even more on my T43. The GPU is only going to make a difference if you get something that uses it, like CAD and/or intensive 3D games (but even Q3 runs on Intel GPUs). As for shared video, this doesn't really affect things as much as would be believed. Now, the ATIs also do pretty much the same thing as the Intels do, they use HyperMemory to augment their VRAM by over 2x times.

As to the PCI vs. AGP difference? That is has changed ever since PCI Express which is, overall, faster compared to AGP 8x. For the T43, a 16x PCI-Express architecture is used which gives 4000 MB/s full duplex over the AGP 8x's 2100 MB/s. To this date, I have compared my T43 with quite a few other laptops that used AGP and I have yet to see any negative difference when it comes to *any* graphics abilities; in addition, this isn't the older PCI standard that is used, rather, it is PCI Express which has primary advantages over AGP and makes more sense if you want to condense high performance peripherals into a slimline workstation like the Thinkpad T Series. Most, if not all, of the later motherboards released in the future will be using PCIe technology given that it has some genuine performance benefits over AGP (depending on which speed you pick) as explained here and here. In this sense, the T43 has better video abilities in certain cases with the added benefit of better power savings due to the integrated Intel GPU (it makes itmore of a "True Centrino" platform). Although, again and for what you are going to be doing, you will probably not notice a difference between the two, even when running instances in VMware, QEMU, or Xen.

There are also some threads talking about the differences between the T43 and the T42, quite a good nu,ber are amenable to a simple search. The older ones tended to deal more with heat and noise issues that may or may not be encountered and had to do with earlier releases of the T43/ps.

crashnburn · #26 Post by **crashnburn** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:49 am

Christopher. Your insights were exactly what I was looking for. I'll come back if I have any other questions.

Thanks.

Everyone - Appreciate the sound insights.

jamse · #27 Post by **jamse** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:31 am

i like my t43

3 > 2

gunston · #28 Post by **gunston** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:23 am

what is the reference temperature of GPU, CPU, PCI for your T42??
please kindly post your temperature readings

crashnburn · #29 Post by **crashnburn** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:07 pm

Chris & Everyone.

I might not be correct.. but Somewhere in the manual it said I'd need to do the following:

1. Need new screws since the ones have some kinda plastic lock mechanism to tighten the threading.

2. Need to open up the whole thing to replace the screen. Is there a shortcut to replacing the screen. Id appreciate some insight here.

Thanks.

EOMtp · #30 Post by **EOMtp** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:43 pm

1. You do not need new screws; you may reuse the 5 screws that secure the "top" to the "base".
2. There are no shortcuts: to remove the "top", one must remove the keyboard, the palm rest, and the keyboard bezel -- no more, no less.
Remember: a shortcut is the longest distance between two points.

Between these 2 laptops: A possible new T43 and refurb T42

Between these 2 laptops: A possible new T43 and refurb T42

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