T43p Nightmare ->upgrade to T60p? So Far, So GOOD!

[whomung]

EDIT: 9.19.06

Thanks to All who encouraged me to go with the T60p....

A new 2007-94U just arrived a few hours ago, and so far.... very nice machine..... given my t43 experience, I'll want to beat on it for a while to make sure it isn't going to break... and 'll look through the forums here and see if I can recreate any specific issues....

But all the worries I had about it not being a "REAL Thinkpad" were unfounded..... so far, I'm very satisfied with build quality, and "look and feel"......

So now I'll try to break it, and if I can't.... whoooohoooooo.... what a nice laptop... Thanks for all the feedback...

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Original Post

Hi --this is for T60p users

I bought a T43p in Feb, last year.... my first thinkpad.

This is the most dysfunctional machine I ever fell totally in love with --had it seven months --and have yet to use it longer than two weeks at a stretch..... I think I won the random "you got every weird manufacturing defect possible" award....

I'm confident I experienced an incredible series of manufacturing flukes --including the fact that IBM's SWAT team had my machine in their labs to do an autopsy, replaced the motherboard, and everything else --and still sent it back to me BROKEN! Ubelievable

So here's my question.... IBM is offering me two replacement options....

(1) a new T43p, 2.26 single core Centrino, 100 gig 7200 SATA, bluetooth, light scribe, etc.... extra gig RAM and Extra hot swap drive --That they personally beat on to stress test --OR

(2) a T60p Similarly configured.... 2.16 dual core, 15" screen, right of the line (minus extra drive)

I want about two/three years of life from this machine -- and I do big CAD, and 3D modeling.... so the extra CPU power with the ATI 5200 card is better for me.... AutoCAD, 3D studio, etc....

BUT... I use this machine --every day-- to make a living , so I need a bullet proof computer, more than the latetest and greatest...

Thing is
(a) the new T60p cost less than what I paid for the T43p (with less CPU and graphics power, smaller drive, etc) ;

(b) I hear that the falure rate is *much* higher.

but (c) I already have next day, on-site service warranty that I'll apply to the new machine

Also... I really want an the machine to have an "IBM" feel to it, even if it's officially "Lenovo" now.... it's hard to imagine Lenovo being so stupid to f*ck up the case and keyboard at the absolute top of the line --but anything is possible.

Any thoughts on the smarter choice? I've gone back and forth.... but haven't talked to any actual T60p users

so thanks for any feedback that can help.. I need to figure this out by my the middle of next week, and obviously want to make the smartest choice --and there's good arguments in both directions.

[djpharoah]

I personally would go for the T60p. The additional power from the dual core cpu and the V5200 you would greatly benefit especially for autoCAD.

I have seen a friends T60p and its pretty solid especially with the Flexview LCD.

[whomung]

Continuation of origal request

The reason I'm asking is, after reading this forum, it looks like **LOTS** of people are having a lot of issues with the T60p's.... temperature, wireless, bluetooth, etc....

Great reviews....

Love the power....

Honest to god don't need or want a headache..... I'd rather build a desktop render box... I will anyway, but....

If the t60p is not a reliable machine, Maybe it's better to take a pass on the "latest and greatest --T60p" and get a fully loaded version of the last of the real IBM Thinkpads...???

I'd *really* appreciate some feedback here, ideally from people familiar with both machines.... given the 7 month "fluke hell" it's been, I'd like to make the smartest decision.....

As I mentioned --whatever I choose -- (1) it's my primary machine (2) I run architecural /3D CAD, visualization softaware.

I don't want to be a weenie, and I'm reading the forums like crazy --but the choice isn't in focus yet....

Uhhh... a little help here.... beyond "hell ya, go for it!" ;^)

thanks

[whomung]

I personally would go for the T60p. The additional power from the dual core cpu and the V5200 you would greatly benefit especially for autoCAD.

I have seen a friends T60p and its pretty solid especially with the Flexview LCD.

Thanks..... I'm leaning that way --figuring "lighting" won't hit me twice in a row --and --if it works-- the increase in benifit to me is substantial.....

it's the "if it works" part.... I'm, a little spooked.... "dual core" is still realitvely new... BUT I heard the "T" series engineers went with Lenovo...

So, other than "techno anxiety", (really --it's been a serious pain-in-the-[censored]) if it works and the T60p still has the t43p's "thinkpad" quality build, screen and keyboard.... I'd be a happy guy.

I gotta say --this was my first Thinkpad --and despite the t43p machines abject failure (which, at the tolerences were talking about, can happen to *anyone* --it certainly wasn't personal to me) I STILL LOVE the machine --which never worked longer than a day or so -- and IBM support is *great*..... Lenovo would be INSANE to change that.....

How weird is that?

[Kamika007z]

Also to note, the T60's are designed by the same team of IBM engineers as the T4x series. So it really still IS an IBM.

Personally, I'm loving my T60p 2007-84U (It's a 14.1". The 15" is too bulky and it even looks different asthetically from the 14.1").

If they ever add an 14.1" FlexView, I'd run and buy another one. That's the only thing that is the difference from the 14.1" to 15" besides LCD size.

Hope this makes sense

[freakwave]

Hi,

just my five cents here. I think you should go for the T60p. I just replaced my keyboard yesterdey (from GE to US) and could take a look inside. I think this case is the most advanced case you can imagine. It is so well build. Also I am working with my T60p for 4 months now, and seriously, there was not one hang/crash with windows xp. I run several vmware and I am really stressing the machine. But so far very well. No problems with wireless or bluetooth.
I have the 15" and yes it is a bit bulky.

Regards,

Wolfgang

[whomung]

Hi,

just my five cents here. I think you should go for the T60p. I just replaced my keyboard yesterdey (from GE to US) and could take a look inside. I think this case is the most advanced case you can imagine. It is so well build. Also I am working with my T60p for 4 months now, and seriously, there was not one hang/crash with windows xp. I run several vmware and I am really stressing the machine. But so far very well. No problems with wireless or bluetooth.
I have the 15" and yes it is a bit bulky.

Regards,

Wolfgang

Wolfgang and Kamika007z

Thanks.... This is what I'm looking for.... Real feedback on the T60p's performance --over time.... I really don't want a repeat of the last few months (which --like I said, can happen to anyone --[censored] happens, components f*ck up ---, and IBM tech support was great --but I spent the money to use the computer to MAKE money --not to have something to ship around the country.

I don't want to rob myself of all the advantages of the T60p (which are substantial) out of paranoia "it will be a headache" compared to a bulletproofed T43p.

So hearing you guys experience helps a lot. I'd certainly rather have a smoothly functioning T60p

[semaj]

I have the t60p. I have been relaly happy with it so far. I upgraded from a t42p laptop and couldnt be happier. Go for it. The t60p is a little differant but i definiatly would go for the 60.

[whomung]

I have the t60p. I have been relaly happy with it so far. I upgraded from a t42p laptop and couldnt be happier. Go for it. The t60p is a little differant but i definiatly would go for the 60.

Good, another vote for the T60.......

BUT..... how come you the T60 isn't your main machine?

Also..... BIG QUESTION:.... are the keyboards on ALL the T60's "IBM".... because I'm not sure I'd like a chicklet keyboard.

BTW, semaj: Thanks for reminding me I was "off proxy".... nice to put public service announcements in you sigs, eh? ;^)

[BillMorrow]

without reading all these posts,

TAKE the T60p..

do NOT hesitate..
do not ask for more opinions..
just TAKE the T60p..

[tpribors]

I started Thinkpads with a 600X. Graduated to a T23 then gave my 600X to my daughter.

I got a T42p at work.

Then I got a T60p to replace the T23 (which I then gave to my daughter!). Both of my current machines have the 1600x1200 display.

Take the T60p. You won't be disappointed.

By the way, the 600X is now the "backup" for everyone. Still a very servicible machine, except for the dismal history of the battery.

Good Luck!

[darrenf]

Keep in mind that this is where people come to gripe about problems. It's human nature to be more vocal about things that make you unhappy than things that meet or exceed your expectations.

The T60p is a great machine. The construction is top notch and in my experience the build is similar to the T42 (I never liked the T43) but is more rigid because of the magnesium frame. Your resale value will be much enhanced and the dual-core CPU makes applications *so* responsive.

It's not perfect. My personal gripe is that the V5200 is a power hog, but when you need the performance (CPU or GPU) it's there in spades.

Go with the T60!!

-darren

[whomung]

Also to note, the T60's are designed by the same team of IBM engineers as the T4x series. So it really still IS an IBM.

Personally, I'm loving my T60p 2007-84U (It's a 14.1". The 15" is too bulky and it even looks different asthetically from the 14.1").

If they ever add an 14.1" FlexView, I'd run and buy another one. That's the only thing that is the difference from the 14.1" to 15" besides LCD size.

Hope this makes sense

Of course it does....

I do Architecture/CAD... so I want a bigger screen --but portable....

I go out to clients houses for consultations... and I want a groovy notebook that three people can look at.... It's easier for me if "mom and pop" are both at the table when we discuss the remodel.

Then I come home and (for now) jack into a larger, higher res flat screen for most of the work.... but still the same boot drive, video card and CPU.

So I'd like a slim 15" --but will sacrifice slim for battery life, and would love to max out the hot swaps.

how many of folks reading this have an extra "swap" drive?... do you find it useful --as compared to an external desktop drive?

thanks

[JHEM]

Whomung,

Another resounding vote to take the T60P!!!

I had one (2623-DDU) for a few days to test in anticipation of passing my workhorse T41P on to one of my needier offspring. Of course I took the thing completely apart while I had it and I'm here to testify that it's built like the proverbial brick [censored]!

The only reasons I returned it was, 1) that I couldn't get comfortable with its overall size with the 15" display after being so happy with the overall size and form factor of my 14" display T41P, and 2) I'll be getting a freebie 14" T60P in a week or so from a grateful local academic institution.

Regards,

James

[whomung]

Whomung,

Another resounding vote to take the T60P!!!

I had one (2623-DDU) for a few days to test in anticipation of passing my workhorse T41P on to one of my needier offspring. Of course I took the thing completely apart while I had it and I'm here to testify that it's built like the proverbial brick [censored]!

The only reasons I returned it was, 1) that I couldn't get comfortable with its overall size with the 15" display after being so happy with the overall size and form factor of my 14" display T41P, and 2) I'll be getting a freebie 14" T60P in a week or so from a grateful local academic institution.

Regards,

James

hahaha

It's sooooo weird.... in terms of lost time, personal pain, and loss of ROI, this T43p is the WORST computer I've ever owned --and I LOVE it....

What would Freud say?

Doing architecture, and looking at large CAD drawings... I need "screen real estate" so a 15" is good for me, but other than that... the 14" slims are very sexy...

PLUS (as some threads here indicated) you can get the T60's to run Apples "OS X (just for fun) it'd be cool.... I live in an AutoCAD world, so I'm stuck with XP, and All my software investment is there.... but..... OS X is interesting.

[curiouscosy]

Another vote for T60p. My T60's been running almost constantly since it was delivered a month ago (and I mean 24/7), just as stable as my trusty old Toshiba.

[yves]

1) It's sooooo weird.... in terms of lost time, personal pain, and loss of ROI, this T43p is the WORST computer I've ever owned --and I LOVE it....

What would Freud say?

RE: Freud will love you as a regular patient.

2) T60P

I use my T60P non stop since May

[nxman]

Its just bad luck go for the T60p

[Liam_]

Go for the T60p. I have one, and it works fine. I thought I had a problem with the restore option, but that also works fine.

It is: very fast, superb screen (esp. when I compare it with the Dell 6400's screen my study-buddy has (with "TrueLife") and it does everything you want it to do. I really love it.

When I did my final thesis at IBM in the Netherlands (I now live in Canada) I had a T23, which I also loved. The keyboard of the T60p won't dissapoint you, it is superb.

So, I wouldn't even THINK of getting a T43, just go for the T60p, it has all the power you need! Just do it!

[kulivontot]

Well here's something for you to think about... You already had a T43P that HAS failed on you. There are people who have had T60's that have had problems too (I don't recall having read many that have been too fatal), but even then that just puts it even with the T43p. Both machines may have a failure, so you might as well go with the newer, faster, up to date machine. I don't believe there are any real systematic flaws that are associated only with the new T60's.

[whomung]

Well here's something for you to think about... You already had a T43P that HAS failed on you. There are people who have had T60's that have had problems too (I don't recall having read many that have been too fatal), but even then that just puts it even with the T43p. Both machines may have a failure, so you might as well go with the newer, faster, up to date machine. I don't believe there are any real systematic flaws that are associated only with the new T60's.

I agree with this.... In life, "Sh*t happens"..... ANYONE could have a built a machine with a motherboard flawed in manufacturing --and that can give a rash of symptoms... take a buttload of time to diagnose, etc... and it was intermittent for a while... I was just the lucky one to get it -- The tolerances we're talking about, someone could have sneezed on tuesday as that board went buy on the belt --and that was all that MB wrote.

"Inherient Systemic Flaw" or "major downgrade in build quality" in the T60p was the questions I guess I was mostly asking.....

Reading the memory issue that people were experiencing running two gigs with bios 1.06 sounded like a nightmare - because my machine will defintely be expected to run two gigs... but the issue is a few months old, and I'm hoping it's been handled by now....

But Man.... If I got that problem --and had to go through the learning curve they did to figure it out -after the t43 experience I just been through --I'd set my hair on fire.

[christopher_wolf]

Take the T60p


No....really, take the T60p. The dual core, even on the lowest maximum clock setting, will be *significantly* faster than simply the single core P-M. Take a look at this.

Don't worry about the IBM vs. Lenovo thing; the same was made up about the T43, the very one that you are considering. Being that it isn't true, both the T43/p and the T60p have the same feel to them as well as the same excellent build quality if the T60 and X60 I tried out extensively (AutoCAD, MATLAB, and some higher-end image and sound programs are what I tried on them) are anything to go by.

I really can't see any reason to not go with the T60p in this case; you can upgrade the drive yourself (and *how* again does the T60p come with *less* VRAM and GPU power than the T43p?). Upgrading it yourself might even be less expensive than paying IBM/Lenovo to do it.

[whomung]

Take the T60p


No....really, take the T60p. The dual core, even on the lowest maximum clock setting, will be *significantly* faster than simply the single core P-M. Take a look at this.

Don't worry about the IBM vs. Lenovo thing; the same was made up about the T43, the very one that you are considering. Being that it isn't true, both the T43/p and the T60p have the same feel to them as well as the same excellent build quality if the T60 and X60 I tried out extensively (AutoCAD, MATLAB, and some higher-end image and sound programs are what I tried on them) are anything to go by.

I really can't see any reason to not go with the T60p in this case; you can upgrade the drive yourself (and *how* again does the T60p come with *less* VRAM and GPU power than the T43p?). Upgrading it yourself might even be less expensive than paying IBM/Lenovo to do it.

I was little worried about IBM/Lenovo "quality assurance" and reading about that bad batch of RAM /bios issue sure looked like it added a mahor spike in customer "what the hell??" but Lenovo would have to be insane to go out of their way to goof up the high end machines.

I don't remember saying the v5200 had less vram... in fact, I almost bought an HP with the v5200 before I bought the thinkpad --I decided I'd go with less graphic firepower of the v3100 in exchange for IBM's Bulletproof quality....

hahahahahhaha.... that worked out well....

But yeah.... for mobile CAD and 3D modeling.... the T60p increasingly sounds like a PERFECT machine for me.

And I agree on ROI of doing some of the upgrades myself (swap bay hard disk , memory,) etc....

Right now I'm reading the various "Dock"Threads..... To be able to plug a really high end card in.... and not worry about the heat... that would be cool.

[zzyss]

The reason I'm asking is, after reading this forum, it looks like **LOTS** of people are having a lot of issues with the T60p's.... temperature, wireless, bluetooth, etc....

Just to put things in perspective... this is a discussion forum. I think the ratio of people requesting help for problems vs. people just blinding posting praise is going to be quite high in favour of problems. Therefore it's going to seem like the T60's are quite problematic, whereas it probably only represents a small but vocal minority.

I'd go with the T60p.

It still feels IBM as far as the hardware goes. Software-wise it is more Lenovo (pre-loaded junk) - but the ThinkVantage software is still useful, and still good.

I've had my T60p (albeit 14") for a couple of months now, and I have yet to find a "fault" - the things that I gripe about are usually just design niggles, or things that I can live with.

[jdp1955]

Purchased a T43p in the spring and it has not skipped a beat since the day I bought it.

I was looking for: 1. great screen-got the 1600x1200, 2. great keyboard. The rest of it is just internal hardware, but I do believe 1G of RAM is important.

Easy to carry. All functions work perfectly. DVDs play perfectly.

Maybe the T60 machine is more advanced for some things. I am perfectly pleased with my machine.

Thanks, JP.

[whomung]

Purchased a T43p in the spring and it has not skipped a beat since the day I bought it.

I was looking for: 1. great screen-got the 1600x1200, 2. great keyboard. The rest of it is just internal hardware, but I do believe 1G of RAM is important.

Easy to carry. All functions work perfectly. DVDs play perfectly.

Maybe the T60 machine is more advanced for some things. I am perfectly pleased with my machine.

Thanks, JP.

As I've said.... my T43p is the most dysfunctional computer I ever fell in love with.... and manufacturing defects can happen to **anyone**... Hence this thread.

I actually prefer the t43p's case and keyboard design to the the T60's...

But I really don't want more headaches.... But I don't want to get "OLD" if I never got to use the "NEW"....

I LOVED my T43p (2 gigs, 7200 60 gig, bluetooth, 1600 x 1200 screen) even though it **never **worked --bad MoBo.... [censored] happens... and Tech support has been great

I still want a Thinkpad

AND

I just bought my wife an HP dv8000t --it was delivered this morning.... 1.86 dual core, 2 gigs RAM, nVidia 128+128 card.....1600 res 17" screen... 5400 rpm 100 gig drive. Beautiful screen, Lightscribe --and a host of nice ports.... very solid case (not as "pro grade" as we are talking about, but.... nice none the less)

And after watching the dv8000's dual core CPU
(1) defrag it's hard disk, while
(2) running a full virus scan, AND
(3) playing a DVD MOVIE ,
(4) with winamp running a half screen visualization on one "net station"
(5) and Windows media player running a half screen Visualization on another....
6) while downloading files from the web....
(7) and working in AutoCAD running and several files ....

I'm impressed

NOTHING SKIPPED A BEAT... NOT ONE DROPPED FRAME in any of the windows... No stutter.... no hang.... smoooooooooooooth

So this really drove one fact home

I definitely want the dual core 2.26 CPU in the T60p.... That's waaay cool......and the V5200....

[Charles Mann]

Here is another vote for the T60p. I received my 2623DDU, plus another 1gb ram, April 1, 2006. Installed the extra ram, and the T60p has been on line, 24/7, in my home network ever since. I have BOINC installed which is an open-source software platform for computing using volunteered resources. BOINC controls SETI@home running on one cpu, and World Community Grid’s Human Proteome Folding project on the other cpu. These programs run in the background, with both cpu’s at 100%. I can use MS Access at any time with my Architecture Interior Programming System, and have an Excel open in another window. Smooth transition from one to the other. Great computer.

Charles

[whomung]

Here is another vote for the T60p. I received my 2623DDU, plus another 1gb ram, April 1, 2006. Installed the extra ram, and the T60p has been on line, 24/7, in my home network ever since. I have BOINC installed which is an open-source software platform for computing using volunteered resources. BOINC controls SETI@home running on one cpu, and World Community Grid’s Human Proteome Folding project on the other cpu. These programs run in the background, with both cpu’s at 100%. I can use MS Access at any time with my Architecture Interior Programming System, and have an Excel open in another window. Smooth transition from one to the other. Great computer.

Charles

I'd never personally used a dual core machine.... The difference in the power with dual core processor amazed me... it's a LOT more than just a speed increase. Whatever I was thinking about the T43p was blown away by the performance of the newer chip

Anyway.... I'm signing the required "return papers" today, and (hopefully) will get a speedy turnaround on the 2007-94U they are sending to replace the T43p.

If that shows up liked I'd want an Thinkpad to be, and keeps running... I'll be a very happy guy.

Don't know what keyboard they are giving me yet... hoping for the best.

[Jazzar]

i am an owner of a T60p 2623-D8U, 14' screen.
this is the first TP i own, i had fefore a Time laptop (british), and Asus afterwardsand lately a Sony.
even though i did not own a TP before, i think T60p may be the best machine i could ever see till now at least.
the build quality is wonderfull, and i am having no problem at all with any of its wireless connectivities. one thing i did not try is the Verizon, i live in lebanon so it is of no use to me. and i can say with confidence it is called easily portable. as for the keyboard, it is wonderfull. i believe you will never regret getting a t60, on the contrary you will always regret not foing it. hope i have been helpfull, and will change my signature soon.

[whomung]

i am an owner of a T60p 2623-D8U, 14' screen.
this is the first TP i own, i had fefore a Time laptop (british), and Asus afterwardsand lately a Sony.
even though i did not own a TP before, i think T60p may be the best machine i could ever see till now at least.
the build quality is wonderfull, and i am having no problem at all with any of its wireless connectivities. one thing i did not try is the Verizon, i live in lebanon so it is of no use to me. and i can say with confidence it is called easily portable. as for the keyboard, it is wonderfull. i believe you will never regret getting a t60, on the contrary you will always regret not foing it. hope i have been helpfull, and will change my signature soon.

Very nice review..... Thanks..... After everyones feedback, My fears aboiut quality were smoothed out, and after playing with my wifesw dual core machine -- I'm definitely going for the T60p.... Today I signed and returned the papers to ibm start the replacement process....

Now we'll see how it goes, in terms of the turnaround, and what actually arrives... but I'm very hopeful and excited

I'll report back.