Freezes and crashes

[adamgibson]

Hi, I wonder if any kind soul out there could help me with some pointers on the cause of the copious problems I am having with the new T60P I purchased just 2 weeks ago. The various problems I've encountered in just 2 weeks are:

complete freeze ups - cursor won't move, ctrl+alt+delete does nothing - the only think you can do is power off. there is nothing written to event viewer on this. seems to happen randomly

wireless adpter just switches off - usually in the middle of downloading something. the eventviewer says The system detected that network adapter \DEVICE\TCPIP_{322DF3DA-409A-4176-BB86-1B565862F6FD} was disconnected from the network <blah blah> - check drivers

blue screen errors - with core memory dumps.
IRQL_NOT_LESS_OR_EQUAL stop error
- there are a few more different ones but looking throught the event viewer i can't see the logs that capture this.

Basically a snowball of issues. I have applied the latest system updates from my thinkpad 'update my system' for both the graphics driver and the wireless network adaptor, I've rolled them back and re-applied them. I have the Fire GL 5200.

The laptop came with 1GB RAM and the outlet I got it from put in 1GB. i can't help thinking the additional memory is partly to blame for all this.

Any ideas on what to do. i just feel like taking the think back

Please help if you have ideas

[brianl]

Just a thought try and take the 1GB memory out and see if the problems go away.

[pianowizard]

complete freeze ups - cursor won't move, ctrl+alt+delete does nothing - the only think you can do is power off. there is nothing written to event viewer on this. seems to happen randomly

Not sure if this is applicable at all, but you may want to try turning off the Security Center's warnings about Automatic Update being turned off etc. These warnings caused the Dell Inspiron 8200 that I previously owned to freeze very frequently.

[meditate2001]

i had pretty much the same problems. in my case i had a defect usb port. sent it to lenovo they changed the board, everything is ok now.
bewfore you send make sure it is not the ram or any other usb devices...

[nick-m]

There's a number of things you can try. I am sorry for you though...I picked up a T60p a few days ago and the only thing wrong with it was a squeaky palm rest. I called yesterday and the replacement was already at my door this morning, problem fixed.

First, there's a thread on 2x1GB ram freezing up T60s, did you see it? Here; http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=26326
Secondly, did these problems persist before the 1GB ram addition? Did you happen to notice what brand your other 1GB stick was?

The wireless adapter switching off and the IRQ errors possibly point to a faulty card.

MODERATOR EDIT:

7. A word about the "LOCATION" field..

READ THIS PART CAREFULLY !

.
Please enter at least the city and/or state that is your home or current location. Earth, USA, your telephone number area code and Southern Hemisphere, while interesting and fun for you, do not respect the BBS or other users. A location shows other users what time zone you are located in and thus will facilitate a faster answer to your problem. ALSO, your location tends to build a thinkpad owners community. Any "silly" location will delay your activation and could result in your account not being activated/deactivated.
.

[adamgibson]

I will certainly take out the additional memory unit and see whether this changes anything. I still have the serial number but I will have to investigate what vendor the memory came from - I assumed it was lenovo but the outlet could have put something else in.

I know this is slightly off track but what do you think I should do re getting it checked out/replaced - go to lenovo directly or go through the computer store I bought it in. I'm in the US and I bought it here, but I go back home to the UK shortly - the international warranty means this shouldn't be a problem right?

[stephenaron]

I would send it back and order a new one. WHy bother if you are having those issues off the bat. Send it back, before you cant any longer.

MODERATOR EDIT:
7. A word about the "LOCATION" field..

.READ THIS PART CAREFULLY !

.
Please enter at least the city and/or state that is your home or current location. Earth, USA, your telephone number area code and Southern Hemisphere, while interesting and fun for you, do not respect the BBS or other users. A location shows other users what time zone you are located in and thus will facilitate a faster answer to your problem. ALSO, your location tends to build a thinkpad owners community. Any "silly" location will delay your activation and could result in your account not being activated.



.

[planetf1]

Slight variation ...
Anyone seen something similar.......

Thinkpad T60p, 2Gb ram

Windows XP
+ SP2
+ current drivers/hotfixes from lenovo "software installer"
(recommended/mandatory)
+ updates from "Windows update"
originally based on Lenovo preload

Problem - use laptop for < 1 day fairly heavily (mail, eclipse, browsing, audio )

Suddenly
CAD occasionally works & switches to blank desktop (just background) but
usually doesn't
Caps lock active for on/off
Screen activity continues to update (ie CLOCK keeps time)
Windows remain incompletely drawn
mouse movement is fine
CPU chart not 100%
alt-tab doesn't do anything

It appears as if the shell is not responding, but base O/S is fine?

When I first got this I ended up re-installing XP "over the top". this
should take XP components back to their base level (the hit of
installing all apps was too much to deal with). I hoped this would
address the issue. Certainly I'm sure before I got it in minutes/hour,
now it's been a day....

What are the suspect areas? win32k.sys? user32.dll? shell32.dll or
whatever they're called?
Anyone else get similar?
MODERATOR EDIT:
7. A word about the "LOCATION" field..

.

READ THIS PART CAREFULLY !

.


Please enter at least the city and/or state that is your home or current location. Earth, USA, your telephone number area code and Southern Hemisphere, while interesting and fun for you, do not respect the BBS or other users. A location shows other users what time zone you are located in and thus will facilitate a faster answer to your problem. ALSO, your location tends to build a thinkpad owners community. Any "silly" location will delay your activation and could result in your account not being activated/DEACTIVATED..

[stephenaron]

well i am back. Laptop still freezes sometimes. Yesterday i was battery power...out and about. Using gotomypc and i dimmed the screen. Came back 20 min later, and it was frozen. Did hard reboot, and it froze up with the windows splash screen, which was VERY VERY dim, so i almost couldnt see it. Shut down machine, waited 10 min, rebotted, all is ok. BUt this has happened quite a few times since i owned the machine. IBM has replaced both RAM chips. Thoughts? Could it be gotomypc? Power issues?

[aki009]

It's a bad motherboard from the sound of it.

This issue isn't necessarily related to it, but all the latest motherboards (not just from Lenovo) are more prone to weird problems, as they now use lead-free solder that simply isn't as easy to work with, or as reliable as the leaded stuff.

(Thank the euros for this one.)

[christopher_wolf]

This issue isn't necessarily related to it, but all the latest motherboards (not just from Lenovo) are more prone to weird problems, as they now use lead-free solder that simply isn't as easy to work with, or as reliable as the leaded stuff.

(Thank the euros for this one.)

Excuse me? I would like to see real proof of this other than the "Thank the Euros" comment.

[stephenaron]

Well i sent my T60p again, and now its having its display replaced and motherboard too.

[aki009]

This issue isn't necessarily related to it, but all the latest motherboards (not just from Lenovo) are more prone to weird problems, as they now use lead-free solder that simply isn't as easy to work with, or as reliable as the leaded stuff.

(Thank the euros for this one.)

Excuse me? I would like to see real proof of this other than the "Thank the Euros" comment.

Well, the "thank the euros" comment is due to the fact that this is where these requirements originated; specifically the part about driving the changes in face of alternatives that will not deliver anything close to the same performance.

In case you haven't heard, the lead-free solders are very poor replacements for ones with a small amount of lead. They require higher process temperatures, flow poorly, exhibit poor metallurgical characteristics, and have various post-processing issues.

While some of the issues can be mitigated to some extent, the reality is that lead-free compliant devices are much more likely to contain manufacturing process-related problems.

For example, the higher process temperatures require a much faster heating cycle, that is very close to the point where heat-sensitive components begin to break down. It is difficult to achieve the required temperature window uniformly on larger circuit boards, leading to the lead-free version of cold joints.

These lead-free cold joints tend to be more severe than with the leaded alternatives, as the flow capabilities of lead-free solder are very poor, and the solder is typically more brittle even if processed correctly, and very questionable if not.

And even if the whole process is nailed head-on, lead-free replacements can exhibit interesting behavior such as microscopic whiskers that can cause shorts over time.

To sum it all up, the reliability of the replacements is poor.

Interestingly, had the lead-free requirement been less stringent, for example moving to a reduced percentage of lead, and a lesser volume of solder, the reliability issues would probably not have surfaced, and the overall environmental impact would probably have been less, as lower reliability electronics with a reduced useful life would not create a larger volume of manufacturing, transportation and post-consumer waste.

The lead-free processes aren't all bad. One could argue that at some level it is a welcome gift to manufacturers who have been looking for the electronic version of rusting car chassis' to spur sales of replacement gear after the warranty has expired. (The distinction being that electronics manufacturers are forced into it by regulations in some parts of the world.)

I recommend reading the wikipedia criticism on rohs that mentions many of the issues relating to lead-free electronics.

[tomh009]

Well, the "thank the euros" comment is due to the fact that this is where these requirements originated; specifically the part about driving the changes in face of alternatives that will not deliver anything close to the same performance.

In case you haven't heard, the lead-free solders are very poor replacements for ones with a small amount of lead. They require higher process temperatures, flow poorly, exhibit poor metallurgical characteristics, and have various post-processing issues.(...)

There is no doubt that lead-free processes are more difficult to work with, and there have been some issues in the early going. However, RoHS-compliant processes are still very young -- a year or two in mass production, as compared to 100+ years with lead-based processes. The lead-free processes will improve as the manufacturers gain experience as well.

RoHS products less reliable? Could be, but given how young the products are, I would argue that there is insufficient data. One contrary data point is to be found in the Hitachi drives, many of which have been RoHS-compliant for about a year, with no obvious drop in reliability. Of course (non-simulated) long-term data is still years away.

There is always the easy way to do things. But sometimes the easy way is not the right way ...

[aki009]

There is no doubt that lead-free processes are more difficult to work with, and there have been some issues in the early going. However, RoHS-compliant processes are still very young -- a year or two in mass production, as compared to 100+ years with lead-based processes. The lead-free processes will improve as the manufacturers gain experience as well.

RoHS products less reliable? Could be, but given how young the products are, I would argue that there is insufficient data. One contrary data point is to be found in the Hitachi drives, many of which have been RoHS-compliant for about a year, with no obvious drop in reliability. Of course (non-simulated) long-term data is still years away.

I agree that the processes will evolve over time. However, the lead-based processes aren't really that old. The latest lead-containing solders and techniques weren't widely applied until the mid-to-late 90's. With current product lifespans measured in months, and manufacturers having a year or two of lead-free processes under their belts, they have had ample time to tweak their designs and manufacturing. I doubt there isn't much that they haven't tried to make the lead-free solder work as well as it can. Unfortunately it is my personal assessment that the reliability is much lower than it used to be.

In my prior email I probably didn't emphasize enough that smaller electronic devices with thinner PCBs are more suited for lead-free processes, because they can be brought to temperature faster and more uniformly. The downside to thin boards is that they are more likely to flex and cause cracks in brittle lead-free solder. Hard drives are probably the best place for such thinner boards, because they are mounted inside an aluminum frame that has to be sturdy to support the mechanical media inside.

This is not the case for the main boards on desktop computers and notebooks. Their PCBs have to be larger and thicker to accommodate more components, traces, and connectors, and to withstand handling. Further, notebook boards often have complex shapes, increasing localized flexing. (This may explain why some of the latest notebook PCBs have areas where there are no components for no apparent electric-design driven reason.)

Simulated reliability data for lead-free products can not be directly compared to lead-based experiences, because failure modes will likely be different. For example, temperature chamber induced failures will likely be higher due to the brittleness of the solder. The same solder brittleness, or unexpected tin whiskers might also cause longer-term failures that simply can't be simulated. In the end, this will merely increase the frustrations of "normal" users who will experience unexpected failures after some time, well after the short warranty period.

On a personal empirical basis I have also had to conclude the same. I've experienced repeated failures for parts that I would not ordinarily expect to have problems. At least in one case the failure was the result of a cracked lead-free solder joint.

[hoya]

Well i sent my T60p again, and now its having its display replaced and motherboard too.

this thread got off topic and I'm wondering if Lenovo was able to resolve your issues?

[stephenaron]

Was resolved a while ago with new board and ram, but has resurfaced. Wondering if its heat related.