Thinkpad catches fire at LAX

Message

claudeo · #31 Post by **claudeo** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:20 am

It seems that some people posting here have not been reading up on this. The battery fires have nothing to do with overheating of the computer. Sony and Dell both reported that they traced the problem to some tiny metal debris that can get caused when the cells are crimped shut. If such small particle of metal debris migrates to the wrong place in a charged battery it causes a short that results in the energy of the battery getting dissipated as heat at the point of the short. The extreme heat then results in a flare-up. Sony claims that this particular crimping process has been discontinued, and Lenovo claimed that it had not bought batteries built with this process, but since the bare cells have been treated as a commodity item and there are several players involved that may be hard to verify.
It would seem that if a loose metal particle causes a problem it is detected immediately as an anomaly in charging behavior. But at any time after that, it seems that a loose metal particle that had been harmless may migrate due to any motion of the battery, including normal handling. Nothing might actually happen for a while. Most of the time there is no such loose particle, and when there is most of the time it is not in a place where it can cause a problem. This is why it is such a rare occurence and why trying to hit your battery will almost certainly not make it catch fire. All the same, it is not a good idea to try this experiment because you can't be certain that you won't lose this lottery, or that it won't catch fire a few hours later when you're not around to put out the fire.

gearguy · #32 Post by **gearguy** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:36 am

Word on that guy above. He is l33ts.

What's worrying about this forum is most of you seem to be in denial that a Thinkpad could catch fire due to a manufacturing error.

It's very much 'oh well it was a thinkpad, must have been the users fault'.

#33 Post by **jdhurst** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:52 am

gearguy wrote:<snip>
What's worrying about this forum is most of you seem to be in denial that a Thinkpad could catch fire due to a manufacturing error.

It's very much 'oh well it was a thinkpad, must have been the users fault'.

There is no question that a manufacturing error can cause a problem (which I why I allowed such in one of my posts).

But in this forum, there are a few occurences of "I put my machine into standby and it was *very* hot later on". That I think is a user error (for the most part).

I think all one can do is make sure the machine is properly off, properly hibernated, or properly in standby and making sure everything feels cool before stowing it in a bag for any length of time.

If a battery is going to overheat randomly because of a manufacturing error, there isn't much I can do about it (except, of course, to heed vendor recalls).
... JD Hurst

#34 Post by **jdhurst** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:56 am

claudeo wrote:<snip> This is why it is such a rare occurence and why trying to hit your battery will almost certainly not make it catch fire. All the same, it is not a good idea to try this experiment because you can't be certain that you won't lose this lottery, or that it won't catch fire a few hours later when you're not around to put out the fire.

Whacking a battery is a terrible idea. If you were referring to my OT post, there was no alternative (short of ditching a working and expensive UPS). The batteries removed have no cell voltage to speak of (under 0.10 volts each), but I do need to get them out of my basement and up to the recycle yard. Point taken.
... JD Hurst

#35 Post by **GomJabbar** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:05 am

jdhurst wrote:Whacking a battery is a terrible idea. If you were referring to my OT post, there was no alternative (short of ditching a working and expensive UPS). The batteries removed have no cell voltage to speak of (under 0.10 volts each), but I do need to get them out of my basement and up to the recycle yard. Point taken.
... JD Hurst

I am curious. Do you know what technology was used in those batteries you hammered out from your UPS? AFAIK, only the Lithium batteries are the ones likely to catch fire. There are also variations on the Lithium batteries. IIRC, it is the chemistries that contain more energy that tend to be more dangerous. I am not strictly speaking about available current here. I know I have read that it is dangerous to solder to a Lithium battery as some are wont to do - to attach leads to coin cell backup batteries.

#36 Post by **jdhurst** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:14 am

I think they might be sealed lead acid. I don't know for sure without looking at them. They had clearly swollen up to the point of near rupture (which is why they wouldn't come out in any normal fashion). ... JDH

#37 Post by **Kyocera** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:43 am

JD

They had clearly swollen up to the point of near rupture

This was a common trait amongst the heavy track vehicles (24V systems)I used to work on in the military, M88 tank recovery vehicles used to take around 8 or 10 car size batteries. Sometimes they would crack open.

o1001010 · #38 Post by **o1001010** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:59 am

i think lenovo will have the recall soon too. since the common factor is sony. and the worst thing is that the way that these recalled are presented by the media, it made the fault land on the computer manufactures instead of 100% purely on SONY.
let's face it, sony is just crap these days. from their speaker and sound systems, to their vaio laptop which breaks with any oops, it is just pathetic.

thank god i have a sanyo battery

MobileGuru · #39 Post by **MobileGuru** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:10 am

I'm holding out judgement until the failure analysis has been completed and the battery has been identified as belonging to IBM in the first place, and not some cheap eBay battery that the owner purchased on line to save himself some change. ThinkPads then and now are well protected against overheat conditions, so that only leaves faulty design, physical defect or induced damage in my mind.

Once the engineers get finished with the carcass, you can be we'll know one way or the other what caused this. If it does turn out to be the Sony issue, heads are gonna roll.

MG.

DIGITALgimpus · #40 Post by **DIGITALgimpus** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:44 am

o1001010 wrote:i think lenovo will have the recall soon too. since the common factor is sony. and the worst thing is that the way that these recalled are presented by the media, it made the fault land on the computer manufactures instead of 100% purely on SONY.
let's face it, sony is just crap these days. from their speaker and sound systems, to their vaio laptop which breaks with any oops, it is just pathetic.

thank god i have a sanyo battery

Where did you get confirmation that it's a sony battery? The owner has allegedly said he didn't know what brand battery was in there (to charred now to tell for him). There's no clear indicator in the picture.

dsigma6 · #41 Post by **dsigma6** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:02 am

I think it's funny how people defend the ThinkPad name as if it were a child of theirs. Let it play out before making judgements on the user or the product.

440roadrunner · #42 Post by **440roadrunner** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:13 pm

I find this discussion very very disturbing.

Many of you are (in the words of Perry Mason) assuming "facts not in evidence"

Regardless of what was spewed by the "always reliable" news agencies, none of us REALLY know what happened.

First, the machine may or may NOT have been powered off, regardless of what the owner claimed

The drop to the floor may or may not have caused the actual fire, regardless of any heating that occured before the drop.

Almost ANY charged battery, be it lead acid, nicad, or lith-ion or any other, PROBABLY HAS enough power to cause some sort of fire event IF SHORTED or otherwise overloaded heavily. I myself have caused minor burns to my fingers when thoughtlessly tossing AA batteries into my pocket along with change or keys.

And of course, although this was evidently a Thinkpad, it is just one of the thousands (millions?) out there.

#43 Post by **GomJabbar** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:27 pm

440roadrunner wrote:I find this discussion very very disturbing.

Many of you are (in the words of Perry Mason) assuming "facts not in evidence"

<snip>

Almost ANY charged battery, be it lead acid, nicad, or lith-ion or any other, PROBABLY HAS enough power to cause some sort of fire event IF SHORTED or otherwise overloaded heavily. I myself have caused minor burns to my fingers when thoughtlessly tossing AA batteries into my pocket along with change or keys.

Assuming facts not in evidence? Take your pick....

No Easy Fix for Laptop Batteries

Business Week wrote:SCIENCE LESSON. You may recall from chemistry class that lithium is a metal that burns spontaneously when exposed to air and explodes in the presence of water. Surprisingly, though, the lithium has little to do with the risks posed by batteries, since lithium is not normally present in its volatile metallic form. The danger is that the chemical reaction that generates electricity frees up oxygen. If the cell overheats, the oxygen combines with organic solvents in a nasty chemical fire that can be contained but not extinguished until the oxygen and fuel are spent.

Lithium Polymer Batteries - An abundance of info

Dynamics Unlimited wrote:When damaged, li-poly batteries bloat, which causes the batteries to self-diffuse. If the battery is in a hard case, or shrink-wrapped into a pack of batteries, the electrodes won't separate, which will cause batteries to continue to get hot and possibly explode.

BATTERY ALERT - WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW

Report compiled by Elemer and Diane Nyiry wrote:Lithium is a HAZARDOUS PRODUCT - and as such transportation is subjected to strict
regulation. Avoidance or attempt to contravene those regulations will result in incredibly heavy
fines by Civil Aviation Authorities and Departments of Transport. The danger is REAL when a
lithium battery is subjected to strong impact or shocks, it will get HOT.... IGNITE or worse ....
EXPLODE. Serious accidents, personal injuries and fires have already been recorded.
Discharged or over-discharged batteries present the same dangers - no-one wants to be
responsible for bringing down a passenger or freight airline.......

Battery Safety/Quality/Testing and Materials

Battery Digest Website wrote:What happens when 7 Ah Lithium-ion cells are overcharged? Yardney/Lithion presented test results which showed that 4.7 Volt overcharge causes the cathodes to undergo an exothermic reaction with the electrolyte which can produce enough internal pressure to open the burst disk and cause fire and/or explosion. (Ed. Note: BD commends Yardney/Lithion for presenting the true dangers which exist in Lithium-ion batteries. This is not to condemn Lithium-ion as unsafe, but to highlight conditions which require excellence of design, testing and validation of all systems using this chemistry.)

Safety concerns

Wikipedia wrote:Lithium-ion batteries can easily rupture, ignite, or explode when exposed to high temperatures, or direct sunlight. They should not be stored in a car during hot weather. Short-circuiting a Li-ion battery can cause it to ignite or explode. Never open a Li-ion battery's casing. Li-ion batteries contain safety devices that protect the cells inside from abuse. If damaged, these can also cause the battery to ignite or explode.
<snip>
"It is possible to replace the lithium cobalt oxide cathode material in li-ion batteries with lithiated metal phosphate cathodes that don’t explode and even have a longer shelf life. But for the moment these safer li-ion batteries seem mainly destined for electric cars and other large-capacity applications, where the safety issues are more critical... The fact is that lithiated metal phosphate batteries hold only about 75 percent as much power..."

This is just what I found on short notice. The danger from lithium batteries is not limited to heat generated from an electical short. The danger also lies in the flammable nature of lithium and its compounds, as well as in the oxygen generation that occurs on chemical breakdown.

I do agree that many here are quick to jump to conclusions on the ThinkPad incident. However I don't believe ThinkPads to be immune from such a thing occurring.

DIGITALgimpus · #44 Post by **DIGITALgimpus** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:34 pm

Things need to be put in proportion:

these batteries have been around (for most types) a decade or more, and literally number in the billions between mp3 players, laptops, cell phones, electric razors, cameras, pda's, etc. etc. etc.

Even with media scrutny, there is literally a handful of cases in the past several months, with billions of devices.

Your odds of getting struck by lightning 2X in a week are likely much higher than having a battery explode on you.

Puppy · #45 Post by **Puppy** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:37 pm

A bit more information here http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=3172

BigWarpGuy · #46 Post by **BigWarpGuy** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:25 pm

http://waffleimages.gbsfm.info/files/14 ... 3997ad.jpe
here is a big photo of the laptop. The lettering is too blurry.

pianowizard · #47 Post by **pianowizard** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:42 pm

BigWarpGuy wrote:http://waffleimages.gbsfm.info/files/14 ... 3997ad.jpe

The link doesn't work.

gearguy · #48 Post by **gearguy** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:49 pm

*sits comfortably with LG Battery*

*gives batterey big hug*

BigWarpGuy · #49 Post by **BigWarpGuy** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:50 pm

It works for me. What browser are you using? I am using SeaMonkey for OS/2-eCS.
http://www.mozila.org

440roadrunner · #50 Post by **440roadrunner** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:52 pm

Gomjabber, I don't know why you felt the need to post endless links "showing" the danger of batteries----I had already stated in my post that virtually ANY battery poses some danger under the "right" conditions.

All I'm saying is, that no one here "really" knows what happened, and to go off with wild assumptions guesses, and rumers as to the cause is just so much BS and speculation.

I think I was merely trying to point out what DIGITALgimpus said:

Things need to be put in proportion..........

Your odds of getting struck by lightning 2X in a week are likely much higher than having a battery explode on you.

#51 Post by **GomJabbar** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:25 pm

440roadrunner wrote:Gomjabber, I don't know why you felt the need to post endless links "showing" the danger of batteries----I had already stated in my post that virtually ANY battery poses some danger under the "right" conditions.

Like you, I like to defend my position. Earlier in the thread I wrote of the greater danger from lithium batteries (primarily from fire), as opposed to other types. You seemed to be saying that the danger from lithium batteries is not much different than other batteries. Also, for the benefit of other readers of this thread, I felt it was not a bad idea to expose the potential danger that lithium batteries pose, so that the readers will take care to handle them properly. I posted "endless links" to firm up the facts. BTW, I do not propose the elimination of lithium batteries. They are quite useful. Of course it is possible to make use of safer designs.

IMO, it is my feeling that you tend to exaggerate your case with statements such as: "I find this discussion very very disturbing." and "endless links". This discussion may be disappointing or irritating, but calling it "very very disturbing" seems a bit much.

440roadrunner · #52 Post by **440roadrunner** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:55 pm

You seemed to be saying that the danger from lithium batteries is not much different than other batteries

No, not exactly. The point I was trying to make, is that this is ONE isolated case, with many unknown facts. It could be that in fact the ?drop? envolved is what started the event, or not. It could be that some isolated problem unrelated to batteries per se caused the problem, but in any case, this is ONE incident out of thousands and thousands of laptops.

#53 Post by **K. Eng** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:33 pm

dsigma6 wrote:I think it's funny how people defend the ThinkPad name as if it were a child of theirs. Let it play out before making judgements on the user or the product.

I expected that this would happen, given that this is a ThinkPad forum. But people need to remember that (1) It was the battery that blew up, not the main ThinkPad unit itself (2) The battery is not made by Lenovo (3) Just because a computer has ThinkPad stamped on it does not mean that the computer is great. The I series is proof enough of this.

Each product, whether ThinkPad or not, stands on its own merits, not its brand label.

jd2020 · #54 Post by **jd2020** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:39 pm

For what its worth, I also compared the large photo with the bottom of my T43 (14") and they appear identical (again, less damage and fire ext. dust). The placement of all my stickers matches exactly. I presume those are two corporate tags under the WindowsXP sticker.

Furthermore, in the enlargement, there is a slight difference btwn the two card eject buttons, which seems to match my express card ("x") and pc card slots (dot). I believe the T42 has 2 pc card slots with identical buttons.

I have a Sanyo battery manufactured 2005-01-31. FRU # IBM-92P1087. How about other T43 owners?

JohnDrake · #55 Post by **JohnDrake** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:46 pm

T40, T41, T42, and T43's all can use the same battery, so it can be any one of those.

Lenovo has a safety engineering group...you can bet they have the system, and are looking it over.

claudeo · #56 Post by **claudeo** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:24 pm

The presumed owner of the ThinkPad in question posted on engadget.com that it was a T43 with the original stock battery, but he never thought of checking the manufacturer of the battery--and after the incident there was not enough left to read markings.
As for me, I checked and found out that the battery in my 2 week old T60 was made by Sony in July 2006.

christopher_wolf · #57 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:45 pm

Such an incident almost happened to one of my Profs and also to a friend of mine. *Any* crack that breaks the covering of at least one cell or introduces a short circuit, either electrochemically or electromechanically, significantly increases the risk of the battery exploding.

I would not, under any circumstances, continue on a journey with a battery that had been comprimised in such a manner. Dropping it on the battery is like playing russian roulette, except with LiIon cells in a laptop battery pack. I do think, however, that they shouldn't flame on impact, but if they start fizzing in an audible manner...then you had better wrap them and get them into a safe container *immediately*.

I just returned from a trip where I actually got compliments from the TSA agents on my Thinkpads as well as another person.

"Hey, wow, is that an IBM Butterfly?"

"Yup, 486 75MHz 701c"

"Cool!"

#58 Post by **BillMorrow** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:11 am

i think we need to ratchet the signal to noise ratio UP a bit, gentlemen..
i.e. less noise and more facts..

lets wait for a statement from lenovo/ibm before we rush to judgment..

so far, what seems to be known is that only sony cells are exhibiting this problem..

FYI, i just checked the 6 cell i use in my T60p..
there is nothing on the label, you must use either the FRU # or the battery information in POWER MANAGER to get the maker of the cells..
results:
T60p - 6 cell = sony
T60p - 9 cell = panasonic
X60s - standard = Sanyo
X60s - extended = Sony

meanwhile, if you are concerned, store your sony cell batteries in the spare bathroom bathtub and close the door..

and check the batteries in your smoke detectors..

Puppy · #59 Post by **Puppy** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:41 am

My R51 has Sanyo battery. Any known issues yet ?

#60 Post by **GomJabbar** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:28 am

Toshiba to recall 340,000 laptop computers due to defective Sony batteries

Forbes.com wrote:Toshiba will replace batteries installed in eight models of its 'dynabook' and 'dynabook Satellite' series produced between March and May this year.

Thinkpad catches fire at LAX

high def photo?

Re: high def photo?

Works for me

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