x60(s) vs. macbook , and why I wouldn't switch hardware-wise

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apbudha · #1 Post by **apbudha** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:15 pm

1. no keyboard light and only macbook pro model has keyboard illumination.

2. no tilt (w/ extended battery on x60(s) on macbook. there is a slight ergonomic advantage to have the base tilted in increasing the difference in space between keyboard and screen. in the macbook i noticed even that the screen hinged lowly and right at the keyboard level, which is not what you want ergonomically.

3.no trackpoint or "nipple". Interestingly in a group project a member simply could not use my laptop unless a mouse was attached. I on the other hand live and die with the red nipple. If a nipple/thinkpad user switches to a mac, will it take them long to forget the nipple? can the "pad" offer as much control? still, the idea of two finger waving to scroll a pdf is appealing.

4.keyboard; a friend of mine migrated from a thinkpad x30 to a macbook, and sings that the keyboard does stand up in comparision to thinkpad in what we love as solid tacile feedback. so perhaps this is one point I am not as concerned of.

5. macbook is about a pound and a half heavier. this is sutle but to me makes all the difference, i want a laptop to be as fully functional and powerful and as light as possible. the x series is hearalded (sp) for striking that balance well.

I would love to hear what everyone thinks. Many have said thinkpad with macosx is the idea situation. still, the macbook offers widescreen where many thinkpad x series do not. also there is magnasafe (sp) and isight camera, but aren't really thinkpad deal-breakers for me. also, the lcd screen quality and brightness on a thinkpad generally leaves much to be desired, but is one of its few misgivings (besides no cdrom drive in the x series).

Let me know if I missed any critical comparison items and what the general sentiment is. cheers, P

smvp6459 · #2 Post by **smvp6459** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:19 pm

Don't forget...

Screen finish:
Mac=Glossy v. X60(s)=Matte

Video Out:
Mac=DVI (which can be converted to VGA) v. X60(s)=VGA

Processor:
Mac=Txxxx v. X60=Txxxx v. X60s=Lxxxx

Battery:
Mac=1 internal battery size v. X60=2 internal battery sizes + external battery v. x60s=3 battery sizes + external battery

Modem:
Mac=external dongle v. X60(s)=internal

WiFi:
Mac=Atheros v. X60(s)=Intel or Atheros

Repair:
I like IBM/Lenovos willingness to provide information about the computers and allow you to repair/replace parts without voiding your warranty. I'm not sure what Apple's opinions are on this particular issue.

Scrolling:
I have to say I've become a big fan of the nipple+third button scrolling on my X60s

Battery:
The battery life statistics on the Macbook seemed disappointing compared to the X60(s).

Weight:
X60s with the slimline battery is almost half of the weight of the Macbook (2.76 v. 5.??).

AC Adapter:
I prefer the shape and size of the AC adapter for the X60(s) to the Macbook's adapter...Mac's seems inconvenient when I compare mine to my classmate's Mac adapters.

Ports/etc.:
I know there are some differences but I'm not sure exactly what.
-I think Macbook has the the bigger firewire port but I'm not sure if it has the small firewire port.
-I'm pretty sure X60(s) is unique in still having an IR port.
-No fingerprint reader option on the Mac.
-No cellular-style built-in wireless card option on Mac.
-Not sure if Mac has a built-in SD card reader.
-Not sure if Mac has PCMCIA or what.
-X60(s) has the channels for taking out keyboard spills.
-I'm not sure about Mac's speakers but I doubt they could be worse than X60's single speaker on the bottom middle of the laptop.
-I don't think Mac has the wifi hardware switch.

pianowizard · #3 Post by **pianowizard** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:33 pm

smvp6459 wrote:Weight:
X60s with the slimline battery is almost half of the weight of the Macbook (2.76 v. 5.??).

The Macbook is a whopping 5.2 lb, exactly the same weight as the T23 and the T43 that I own. It would be a nightmare carrying it. Go ahead buy it if all you need is a desktop replacement laptop, but if you're going to travel with it, you will regret it. There were rumors that Apple will introduce a much lighter laptop soon, something around 3 lb, but those were just rumors.

#4 Post by **tomh009** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:45 pm

smvp6459 wrote:Don't forget...

Video Out:
Mac=DVI (which can be converted to VGA) v. X60(s)=VGA

Does that mean that you need to carry VGA (EGA, really!) dongle around to connect a MacBook to a projector?

dfumento · #5 Post by **dfumento** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:59 pm

I'm in the Apple store on 5th Ave in Manhattan (open 24/7/365), just picked up a 8 gb nano after it was sold out at CompUSA and I see the Macbook is the smallest Apple model and in my view is much too large compared with the beautiful x60s that I'm typing from. MacBook Pro is about 2" wider than my machine.

smvp6459 · #6 Post by **smvp6459** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:38 pm

tomh009 wrote:
smvp6459 wrote:Don't forget...

Video Out:
Mac=DVI (which can be converted to VGA) v. X60(s)=VGA
Does that mean that you need to carry VGA (EGA, really!) dongle around to connect a MacBook to a projector?

Yeah. In fact, it's mini-dvi so you need a dongle/adapter to connect to either VGA or DVI

From: http://www.apple.com/macbook/specs.html
"# Mini-DVI port
# DVI output using mini-DVI to DVI adapter (sold separately)
# VGA output using mini-DVI to VGA adapter (sold separately)"

apbudha · #7 Post by **apbudha** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:52 am

I did mention screen quality, but smvp you're right glossy seems nice if you dont have glare.

dvi is silly, you always have to convert (i connect more often to a projector with vga than an lcd with a dvi.

that is good to know about the battery details, thanks.

re: repair, I do appreciate being able to order keyboards under my warranty and replace them myself. good point I have taken this for granted.

i have heard mac speaker volume is too low.

pianowizard: the weight is a big deal, and easily one of the deal-breakers.

cheers, thx for the entries

ericssonboi · #8 Post by **ericssonboi** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:55 am

Isn't the OP referring to the MacBook Pro - 15.4"
- ulluminated keyboard is only offered on the Pro version

But in the post.. he doesn't state the Pro.

ritou · #9 Post by **ritou** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:23 pm

I can't believe you missed battery life in your list. My X60s can last for 8 hours or more depending on the work load. In my impression, MAC lasts less than 4 hours.

bigtiger · #10 Post by **bigtiger** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:40 pm

Well, seems that ThinkPad-ers dislike Mac-ers. If anybody want to sell their Macbook or ibook. I would like to get one to try it out.

Some friends use Mac. But I have never used one. So I cannot comment. But I did hear a lot heat problem with ibook lines.

#11 Post by **tomh009** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:33 pm

smvp6459 wrote:Yeah. In fact, it's mini-dvi so you need a dongle/adapter to connect to either VGA or DVI

From: http://www.apple.com/macbook/specs.html
"# Mini-DVI port
# DVI output using mini-DVI to DVI adapter (sold separately)
# VGA output using mini-DVI to VGA adapter (sold separately)"

Madness ... the whole point of a small notebook is to be able to travel. It's a rare business trip that I don't plug my notebook into a projector. And I don't think I'm very unusual in that regard.

Unless Mac users don't do business presentations?

ericssonboi · #12 Post by **ericssonboi** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:08 am

bigtiger wrote:Well, seems that ThinkPad-ers dislike Mac-ers. If anybody want to sell their Macbook or ibook. I would like to get one to try it out.

Some friends use Mac. But I have never used one. So I cannot comment. But I did hear a lot heat problem with ibook lines.

Heat is one of the problems on all Apple's portable line.
Starting from the ibooks to powerbooks .. and even currently on the MacBooks and MacBook Pros..

My MacBook Pro idles around 65C under load its at around 80C.
The Aluminum acts as a heat transfer... and when skin contacts Aluminum at that temperature for long periods of time.. not exactly fun.

apbudha · #13 Post by **apbudha** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:46 am

ritou wrote:I can't believe you missed battery life in your list. My X60s can last for 8 hours or more depending on the work load. In my impression, MAC lasts less than 4 hours.

no doubt! thanks for adding that. I get around 4 hours on my x31 with extended battery, so 8 hours is double, . can you verify that time? I'm wondering if its closer to 6-7 hours which is still great. i.e. are you quoting or have you experienced this?

..... and how hot does the x60s get?

in a perfect world we could combine and engineer the positives of a thinkpad and a macbook, but you have to select what is most important to ya.

Ciber · #14 Post by **Ciber** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:18 pm

I personally returned my black Macbook because it was just too big, too heavy, and waaaaay too [censored] hot.

Before the Macbook i owned a 12" Powerbook which was perfect for the most part(little on the heavy side and HOT).

I just bought a X60s to replace the Macbook and i could not be happier. I installed OSX on it and it's perfect... quiet, cool, light and the battery lasts me all day, all of which the Macbook doesn't do.

RUSH2112 · #15 Post by **RUSH2112** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:29 pm

I owned a MacBook for about three months, before selling it for my current X60s. It is a decent piece of hardware, but not for me.
1. They advertise 6hrs for the Macbook. I dont think I ever saw more than 4hrs on mine. My thinkpad gets, easy, 6-8hrs.
2. The MacBook gets scratched up easily.
3. Despite heat problems in the X60s, the Mac was worse
4. The Mac's screen doubles as a mirror.
5. The Mac's screen bounces.
6. The Mac's keyboard is better than average, but not as good as a Thinkpad's
7. I prefer 4:3 screens, but that is just preference.
8. No keyboard lighting on the non-Pro MacBooks
9. Touchpads blow.

Ciber · #16 Post by **Ciber** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 4:22 pm

I agree with you on all those points, Rush.

#17 Post by **tomh009** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:44 am

ericssonboi wrote:My MacBook Pro idles around 65C under load its at around 80C. The Aluminum acts as a heat transfer... and when skin contacts Aluminum at that temperature for long periods of time.. not exactly fun.

Ouch. I already find temperatures above 45C less than comfortable when using my ThinkPad as a "laptop" (ie resting on my lap). The 60-65C temps I see occasionally (when using PhotoShop) generally force me to relocate it to a table.

Does OS X have anything like NHC to control the CPU voltage?

sxr71 · #18 Post by **sxr71** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:25 am

There is no comparison. The only reason to get a MacBook is to save money. You get what you pay for.

ericssonboi · #19 Post by **ericssonboi** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 10:10 am

tomh009 wrote:
ericssonboi wrote:My MacBook Pro idles around 65C under load its at around 80C. The Aluminum acts as a heat transfer... and when skin contacts Aluminum at that temperature for long periods of time.. not exactly fun.
Ouch. I already find temperatures above 45C less than comfortable when using my ThinkPad as a "laptop" (ie resting on my lap). The 60-65C temps I see occasionally (when using PhotoShop) generally force me to relocate it to a table.

Does OS X have anything like NHC to control the CPU voltage?

There isn't really a program to control the voltage..
However, i've downloaded a program that helps alter the fan speed to a specific RPM. Before i would be getting temperatures of 60C+ to around 70C. Under load, it woould be around 75C - 80C.

After using the program.. the system is around 40C. Under load is around 50C.

Way cooler IMO as the aluminum dubs as a heat transfer / cooling source.

goka · #20 Post by **goka** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:50 am

sxr71 wrote:There is no comparison. The only reason to get a MacBook is to save money. You get what you pay for.

Exactly. The X60 is 50% (or more) more expensive...

so it is kind of a strange comparison.

I just installed my fiances sisters MacBook and I think it was great! Smooth, quick, good looking - exactly what I was expecting.

I'm thinking of replacing my T42 with a X60, but after I installed Windows XP and Windows Vista on my iMac 24" I'm not sure anymore...An installation of Windows has never gone smoother, and now my Mac runs Windows within OS X faster than on my T42. I haven't tried XP on the MacBook yet, but I will.

If I go for a MacBook or MacBookPro, I'll miss the TrackPoint (very much I'm afraid), but aprt from that I think I will be very satisfied with my "swiss army knife" laptop.

apbudha · #21 Post by **apbudha** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:23 pm

oh sorry, at the uni I work there is a academic discount so a black macbook with 2.0ghz core duo with 512 ram is similarly priced with the x60s with 1.66ghz (i think low volt processor), around 1400usd. Of course if the macbook is not black it is 200 less but then you still need to add 2 additional years warranty which adds the 200 back. after adding memory, docking station, and additonal power supply the x60s will run 1700usd no doubt, with the white macbook at 1200, 1.83 ghz at 1050.

after all i have heard i think i would stick with the x series line but would want to wait long enough to see if it adapts to work well with Vista. also curious about the x60 tablet. I have read in recent posts that already many converts love their macs now, but some feel like it is arduous to perform simple tasks and they feel more efficient in working on winxp. winxp is working fine for me so perhaps I can put aside the idea of using mac for now.

Note from Moderator: Start trimming your own quotes, or I'll just delete the entire message.

ericssonboi · #22 Post by **ericssonboi** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:37 pm

Here in Canada.. the X60 (170686U) goes for 1400 + 200 for X6 dock. via visaperks.ca .. So its not a bad price at all..

I'm using a maxxed out MBP here.. and i'm thinking of going to a X60. The MBP is great and all.. it has everything.. all the bells and whistles.. but i'm just looking for something smaller, something lighter.
Also.. i feel that i'm not using "all of the system" so i'd rather go wth a X60 + some desktop combo..

The OS is great.. and I absolute love it.. everything is so much more efficient in it.. but the aluminum is a big turn off.. they need to redesign it without aluminum

Note from Moderator: Start trimming your own quotes, or I'll delete the entire message.

apbudha · #23 Post by **apbudha** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:46 pm

oh sorry, at the uni I work there is a academic discount so a black macbook with 2.0ghz core duo with 512 ram is similarly priced with the x60s with 1.66ghz (i think low volt processor), around 1400usd. Of course if the macbook is not black it is 200 less but then you still need to add 2 additional years warranty which adds the 200 back. after adding memory, docking station, and additonal power supply the x60s will run 1700usd no doubt, with the white macbook at 1200, 1.83 ghz at 1050.

after all i have heard i think i would stick with the x series line but would want to wait long enough to see if it adapts to work well with Vista. also curious about the x60 tablet. I have read in recent posts that already many converts love their macs now, but some feel like it is arduous to perform simple tasks and they feel more efficient in working on winxp. winxp is working fine for me so perhaps I can put aside the idea of using mac for now.[/quote]

Here in Canada.. the X60 (170686U) goes for 1400 + 200 for X6 dock. via visaperks.ca .. So its not a bad price at all..

I'm using a maxxed out MBP here.. and i'm thinking of going to a X60. The MBP is great and all.. it has everything.. all the bells and whistles.. but i'm just looking for something smaller, something lighter.
Also.. i feel that i'm not using "all of the system" so i'd rather go wth a X60 + some desktop combo..

The OS is great.. and I absolute love it.. everything is so much more efficient in it.. but the aluminum is a big turn off.. they need to redesign it without aluminum[/quote]

i'm not sure why the disparity, but at the uni there is a maojr diff between x60 and x60s:

ThinkPad X60 Notebook with 1.83GHz Core Duo, 12.1" XGA Display
$1699.00

ThinkPad X60S Notebook with 1.66GHz Low Wattage Core Duo, 12.1" XGA Display
$1389.00

I don't like the pros, they are way too expensive and i don't like aluminum either. I had a friend get a black macbook, and playing with it a little and loved it. magnisafe, the opening latch, option for glass lcd for vibrant colors. there is much lenovo could learn.

Note from Moderator: Start trimming your own quotes, or I'll delete the entire message.

#24 Post by **tomh009** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:59 pm

ericssonboi wrote:There isn't really a program to control the voltage..
However, i've downloaded a program that helps alter the fan speed to a specific RPM. Before i would be getting temperatures of 60C+ to around 70C. Under load, it woould be around 75C - 80C.

After using the program.. the system is around 40C. Under load is around 50C.

Way cooler IMO as the aluminum dubs as a heat transfer / cooling source.

You have to run a fan?

I hate fan noise ... my X31 very rarely turns on the fan, only if I'm running some very heavy Photoshop actions (scripts).

#25 Post by **tomh009** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:00 pm

ericssonboi wrote:Here in Canada.. the X60 (170686U) goes for 1400 + 200 for X6 dock. via visaperks.ca .. So its not a bad price at all..

Off-topic but ... how do you find the special prices through visaperks.ca? I found that it redirected to the standard Lenovo Canada web site. Did I do something wrong?

ericssonboi · #26 Post by **ericssonboi** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:21 am

Basicly it is the lenovo website.. except when you browse through each section (Notebooks, Desktops), you'll notice the prices are amazingly lower.

The one i have listed for 1400 was going for 2650 i beleive on the regular website.

Only perk of course is that you must pay by your visa credit card. If you have a money back visa and can pay it off right away.. double score

ericssonboi · #27 Post by **ericssonboi** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:26 am

tomh009 wrote:You have to run a fan? I hate fan noise ... my X31 very rarely turns on the fan, only if I'm running some very heavy Photoshop actions (scripts).

Its not really loud..

Normally.. straight out of the box.. the fans don't kick in till the system is under load. Only thing is.. also straight of the box, the system is so uncomfortably hot that you don't want to hold it on your lap or anywhere for long periods of time.

Someone created a program that turns on the fan at about 3000rpm and keeps adjusting it based on system temp.

As mentioned before.. system was running at 60C +.
Now it runs around 45C which is much cooler and not as hot as before.

But once i get a buyer.. I think this is going to go.. i have my X60 already on order from visaperks.ca
Should be here this week. Spoke with a rep and they said they have 21 of them in stock and should take 2-3 days to ship.

#28 Post by **tomh009** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:40 am

ericssonboi wrote:Basicly it is the lenovo website.. except when you browse through each section (Notebooks, Desktops), you'll notice the prices are amazingly lower.

The one i have listed for 1400 was going for 2650 i beleive on the regular website.

Only perk of course is that you must pay by your visa credit card. If you have a money back visa and can pay it off right away.. double score

Indeed! I see the difference now ... 1706-AVU (X60 1.66 GHz, 1 GB, 80 GB) is C$2249 on standard web site, C$1686 through visaperks.ca. Wow.

Thanks very much!

ericssonboi · #29 Post by **ericssonboi** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:06 am

tomh009 wrote:Indeed! I see the difference now ... 1706-AVU (X60 1.66 GHz, 1 GB, 80 GB) is C$2249 on standard web site, C$1686 through visaperks.ca. Wow.

Thanks very much!

If your considering the system you listed.. look at the (170686U). It goes for 1400 and better spec'd

asiafish · #30 Post by **asiafish** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:28 am

The X-series and MacBook are in completely different classes, both for price and size/weight. The MacBook is a budget model that competes with the low end Z and T series or mid-range R-series. The X series is a premium model for which Apple has no competing model at all.

The cheapest X60 is more expensive than the most expensive MacBook, has very different strengths and weaknesses and generally is aimed at a completely different user. Just as the person shopping for a 3-series BMW convertible won't be comparing it to a Honda Odyssey minivan, few X60 or MacBook shoppers consider the other model to be direct competition.

This is very problematic for me, as I really prefer Mac OS X over Windows and would prefer to use it exclusively, but Apple just doesn't make an appropriate laptop for me. The MacBook is too large and heavy (they seem to have fixed the heat issues) while the MacBook Pro is even bulkier. Running OS X on my X41 is not a valid option due to the great difficulty in making everything work as it should.

I'm left running Windows XP and putting up with what I consider an inferior OS because the X-series is the hardware that best suited my needs at purchase time. Were I buying today I'd go for an X60s, but if Apple released a smaller and lighter portable it would be my first choice.

x60(s) vs. macbook , and why I wouldn't switch hardware-wise

x60(s) vs. macbook , and why I wouldn't switch hardware-wise

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