Daylight Saving Time

[jdhurst]

Daylight Saving Time has been the same two dates (Spring and Fall) for as long as I can remember (although the dates were different many years ago). So currently, DST starts the first weekend in April and ends the last weekend in October. As of this moment, I am on Eastern Standard Time in Toronto.

Next year, DST begins March 11 (three weeks earlier) and ends November 4 (one week later).

So as it stands, all the computers, all the operating systems, all the fancy wall timers, possibly some VCR's and newer PDA's like my iPAQ are all going to go for a loop.

Has anyone researched this issue for their set of gear? And if so, are there patches available? And then, if that, will there be patches for older systems (Windows 2000, for example)?

I have not spent any time on this, but the problem is on us in less than six months.

... JD Hurst

[carbon_unit]

As far as windows goes it will be a simple matter of a windows update to fix the problem. VCR's.....Well that is a diferent matter.

[jdhurst]

As far as windows goes it will be a simple matter of a windows update to fix the problem. VCR's.....Well that is a diferent matter.

True. Also Internet Time will work (but then most systems default to once a week).

For those of us who keep copious machines around for testing and checking purposes, will *they* patch Windows 98 (No), Windows NT4 (No), Windows 2000 (Probably), Windows XP (Yes), RedHat 7.3 (No), RedHat 9 (No), Ubuntu 5 (Probably Not), Ubuntu 6 (Yes), SuSE 9 (Probably Not). Some of these machines can sync off the host machine, so it may not be as bad as I paint here.

But for all the fancy timers? Who knows what will happen.
... JD Hurst

[lev]

As far as windows goes it will be a simple matter of a windows update to fix the problem. VCR's.....Well that is a diferent matter.

True. Also Internet Time will work (but then most systems default to once a week).

For those of us who keep copious machines around for testing and checking purposes, will *they* patch Windows 98 (No), Windows NT4 (No), Windows 2000 (Probably), Windows XP (Yes), RedHat 7.3 (No), RedHat 9 (No), Ubuntu 5 (Probably Not), Ubuntu 6 (Yes), SuSE 9 (Probably Not). Some of these machines can sync off the host machine, so it may not be as bad as I paint here.

But for all the fancy timers? Who knows what will happen.
... JD Hurst

Windows:
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Time Zones\

or (2003/XP):
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\TimeZoneInformation\

There is a microsoft utility called, appropriately, timezone that helps with this kind of thing.

UNIX:
look into /etc/localtime /usr/share/zoneinfo (or /usr/local/etc/zoneinfo or similar) zic(8). or just download the latest file from ftp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/

The US implementation of DST is more stable than many places. In the US, the rules were introduced for 1967, ammended for 1974, 1975, 1976, 1986, 2007, so the current set of rules has been used for about 20 years.

Other places have different rules to the US, and many of them are much more complicated and variable. Eg, Israel until 2005 had dates that were simply announced by the government a year in advance, and currently the dates are based on the Jewish lunar calendar.

Brazil also seems to do things by annual decree.

Argentina seems to announce its time changes as close as the day before the change....

If you're bored one day take a look at the situation in the state of Indiana:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Indiana

Or read this book:
http://seizethedaylight.com/

Who actually sets the timer on their VCR anyway?

[hobbes]

Who actually sets the timer on their VCR anyway?

I haven't used my VCR in about 5 years, since I've been using DVRs since they were first introduced. I've got 3 of them nowadays. Luckily they update their time every night by connecting to a server, so they won't need a patch of any sort.

[tomh009]

As far as windows goes it will be a simple matter of a windows update to fix the problem. VCR's.....Well that is a diferent matter.

True. Also Internet Time will work (but then most systems default to once a week).

Actually, Internet Time (NTP, really) probably won't do it. It is designed to correct for clock drift, and typically clients will not make a one-hour correction as they will assume it is intentional. Have not tested this with the Windows implementation, though,

[hobbes]

True. Also Internet Time will work (but then most systems default to once a week).

Actually, Internet Time (NTP, really) probably won't do it. It is designed to correct for clock drift, and typically clients will not make a one-hour correction as they will assume it is intentional. Have not tested this with the Windows implementation, though,

I use a little background application that automatically sets the clock to atomic time at preset intervals (daily for me). It will adjust whatever amount is necessary. I'm pretty fanatical about having all of my clocks be totally accurate, and I use my laptop as the source for setting everything else in my house (clocks and watches).

[jdhurst]

I'm not at all worried about what to do. I have NISTime which is manual in nature in that I must run it. Internet Time may not do it for the point raised and anyways, it only runs weekly although can be run "now" manually. The same issue exists with Virtual Machine syncronization (works better for drift).

I go to www.time.gov on time change day. That gives me a very accurate time in 2 inch high numerals. I then set my very accurate wristwatch to precisely the correct time (by stopping the second hand on the 12, setting an easy time (like 6:30 this morning (EST)) and then waiting for time to catch up before clicking in the stem. Then I set all the other clocks from that.

But watch here. In 6 months less three weeks, there will be a flurry of questions: "My computer clock has gone wrong"

BTW, the family uses the VCR weekly at least (usually Sunday), so you can be sure that it is one of the first things set on time change.
... JD Hurst

[Thinkpad_T43_Fan]

Here in AZ we have no DST.

[rkawakami]

JD, you sound like me ....

For those of you who are also fanatical about the correct time (NIST-calibrated), I found a freeware program awhile ago which has more options than Windows built-in Internet time synchronization.

The program is called "DS Clock" and is available from here:

http://www.dualitysoft.com/dsclock/

Currently I have my local time, GMT and Sydney, AU time always on top of the other windows and syncing up with the time server every 4 hours. There is a whole range of display options available (12 vs 24hr, month, day, day-of-week formats, etc.) which makes this program very slick.

[JHEM]

Luckily they update their time every night by connecting to a server, so they won't need a patch of any sort.

All PBS stations send out time/date signals constantly. Most newer TVs have the ability to set their clocks by tuning the local PBS broadcast and then going into the menu and select "Auto time set" or similar.

All of my TVs/VCRs/DVRs are new enough that they update their clocks automatically. I have no idea where they synch to.

I've also got Naval Observatory and WWV broadcasts available via short wave as well as two "Atomic" clocks synched to WWV, and my GPS units that show local time and UTC compliments of US DOD/WWV.

Easiest way for most folks to know what time it is nowadays is to look at their cell phone!

James

[tfflivemb2]

Easiest way for most folks to know what time it is nowadays is to look at their cell phone!

And that is exactly how I check the time, and if need be, set everything else.

[BigWarpGuy]

Here in AZ we have no DST.

Here in NJ, we do. It is a problem if one forgets.

[hobbes]

Easiest way for most folks to know what time it is nowadays is to look at their cell phone!

And that is exactly how I check the time, and if need be, set everything else.

I think I have the only cell phone on the planet that doesn't set its own time. It was a freebie with a new plan, and I don't use it much, but I was surprised after getting it to see that there was actually a cell phone that didn't set its own time from the network.

To top it off it keeps horrible time.

[jdhurst]

I have a Motorola Timeport 280 that does not set DST automatically. Why do I still have it? Because it is a good phone, and withstand copious drops onto concrete floors, roads or sidewalks. My timer for outside lights is automatic, but not my poor phone
... JD Hurst

[lev]

Here in AZ we have no DST.

...except for the 20% or so of Arizona that falls in the Navajo reservation, as I recall...

[JHEM]

I have a Motorola Timeport 280 that does not set DST automatically.

That's truly odd John as the time signal comes from the local towers, not the phone itself.

Whenever you change time zones when travelling, your phone should update to the correct time as soon as it polls the local cell tower. Sometimes there's some lag until the phone has polled two towers, but it shouldn't take more than a few minutes for the correct local time to be displayed.

In addition, when in your home cell area your phone's time is updated at least once per day.

If your cell phone is showing the incorrect time, it's your service provider's fault, not your phone's.

James

[jdhurst]

I shall have to ask Rogers in Canada, because my phone has never set itself that I know of. I just set it an hour ago (16 hours after the time changed). ... JD Hurst

[christopher_wolf]

Well, it isn't always the service provider's fault. I have indeed seen cellphones, that I knew could auto-sync their time, on networks, that could sync the handsets from the towers, simply either not update correctly or have significant difficulty doing so.

[rkawakami]

I believe the time information signals on GSM networks is entirely dependent upon your local carrier's decision to implement it. My wife's Motorola Timeport P7389 and earlier Ericsson CF388 never did automatic time updates with Cingular GSM here in the SF Bay Area. These phones actually have a menu setting to set the time. The P7389 keeps such poor time (gains about a half-a-minute a day) that my wife never even looks at it. OTOH, my Motorola V120c (and earlier Qualcomm QCP-2700) on Sprint always has received the time (and DST updates) signals properly and DOESN'T have any manual way to set the time.

Also, for some systems/phones you may have to turn them off and then back on before it automatically adjusts the time.

[JHEM]

Also, for some systems/phones you may have to turn them off and then back on before it automatically adjusts the time.

Or, depending on the provider, there's usually a *XX code you can send to update the local frequencies and time.

I guess I've just been fortunate to have the "right" phones (StarTAC, Timeport, Razr) and provider (Verizon) that it's always been automatic for me, going back to my original Motorola brick handheld and Audiovox bagphone.

James

[hobbes]

My wife's Motorola Timeport P7389 and earlier Ericsson CF388 never did automatic time updates with Cingular GSM here in the SF Bay Area. These phones actually have a menu setting to set the time. The P7389 keeps such poor time (gains about a half-a-minute a day) that my wife never even looks at it.

That describes the situation with my phone exactly. There is a menu setting for the time and it keeps such horrid time I never bother to look at it. I've got some basic Samsung phone using T-Mobile.

[NTL1991]

I don't know about my PC, its not that hard to set the time an hour back, and for my VCR, it gets the time from the cable company, so it;ll automaticly set an hour back. If you have Windows set to the Internet Time, it'll automaticly go back an hour, I believe...

Nick

[Thinkpad_T43_Fan]

Here is the info from MSFT regarding the new DST..

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/timezone/dst2007.mspx

Enjoy.

[jdhurst]

Thanks for the article. ... JD Hurst

[jdhurst]

I followed up on the Microsoft Article. Only XP SP2 and higher and Windows Server 2003 and higher will be receiving the update automatically. Everything earlier will have to be done manually. The article points to tzedit.exe to change your system. This program is available in the Resource Kit for the OS. I have the Windows 2000 resource kit on my Windows 2000 Virtual Machine. I retreived that program and tried it on my XP host. It seems to function.

I continue to see lots of Windows 2000 desktops around, so this will come up again. If you are running stuff earlier than XP SP2, you might wish to hunt down a copy of tzedit.exe.

At this point, it looks like:
1. New Windows systems will be fixed automatically.
2. Old Windows systems will *not* be fixed automatically, but *can* be fixed by the user.
3. Stuff with hard coded calendars (My iPAQ (I think), some of my timers, some other stuff) will be a problem.
4. Stuff getting their time remotely (some VCR's, some cell phones) will be fine.
5. Stuff that we changed manually before will continue to be manual.

... JD Hurst

[440roadrunner]

I just use my cellphone which is synched to WWV, as nearly as I can tell.

[JHEM]

I noted this morning that both my and the wife's respective trucks had to be manually updated, but the Mercedes updated automatically, apparently from the in-dash GPS.

My Palm Tungsten-E2 updated automatically and Palm says they'll be patching the clock software via a download that will handle the new DST dates next year.

Heard from a friend at the phone company that home/desk phones with internal clocks and caller ID displays will update automatically IF you have caller ID enabled. No caller ID may require you to update the clock manually, depending on the phone.

As an aside, any GPS enabled cell phone will update automatically, regardless of the provider.

James

[jdhurst]

<snip>
Heard from a friend at the phone company that home/desk phones with internal clocks and caller ID displays will update automatically IF you have caller ID enabled. No caller ID may require you to update the clock manually, depending on the phone.
<snip>James

I don't have caller ID on my cell phone, so that explains it.
Nefarious action on the part of phone companies? "Would you like the time on the phone to be automatic, Mr. User?" Sure. Hey, what's this new charge on my bill?

... JD Hurst

[JHEM]

<snip>
Heard from a friend at the phone company that home/desk phones with internal clocks and caller ID displays will update automatically IF you have caller ID enabled. No caller ID may require you to update the clock manually, depending on the phone.
<snip>James

I don't have caller ID on my cell phone, so that explains it.

Well, he was specifically referring to wired phones John, but my initial reaction is still HUH???

How do you even get cell service without caller ID?

You need to upgrade your cell provider John, Ethiopia has better cell phone cervice than yours! I used to drive to Toronto all the time from my office in Buffalo and never had the cell phone problems you're experiencing.

James