New 802.11n wireless cards

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cheeebs · #31 Post by **cheeebs** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:33 pm

i just called thinkpad support and asked about 802.11n upgrading on my T60P 2613-CTO. that's a 15" IPS display.

he said, yes, 802.11n is upgradable by swapping the wifi card only, and the antenna is ready-to-go with no parts changing necessary.

iatacs19 · #32 Post by **iatacs19** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:16 pm

Did you open your machine and check to see if it has 3 antenna connectors?

kulivontot · #33 Post by **kulivontot** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:06 pm

cheeebs wrote:i just called thinkpad support and asked about 802.11n upgrading on my T60P 2613-CTO. that's a 15" IPS display.

he said, yes, 802.11n is upgradable by swapping the wifi card only, and the antenna is ready-to-go with no parts changing necessary.

2613-CTO is one of the 15" models that contains the 3rd antenna already.

Here are links containing the parts lists for all 15" and 14.1" T60 models:
Scroll down about a third of the way down and you will see a section for "Wireless LAN 3rd antenna (15in)" or "Wireless LAN 3rd antenna (14.1in)"
If your model is listed here then your machine already has the third antenna.
Now can someone with one of these models open up their display and see if the 3rd antenna is indeed user-installable? Current thinkpad installation documentation does not mention this 3rd antenna.

15" parts list
14.1" parts list

iatacs19 · #34 Post by **iatacs19** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:49 am

You don't need to open the screen, the 3rd antenna cable should be where the other 2 are.

Once I get less lazy I will open mine and check, I just mine in December 2006...

ssimon · #35 Post by **ssimon** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:01 pm

Well it would be nice for someone to open it and check and if possible take some pictures as I just got one of the 802.11 a/b/g/n cards and I'd love to buy the 3rd antenna and add it to my system.

Anyone?

dgrey · #36 Post by **dgrey** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:17 pm

I have a T60WS with the 802.11n adapter. To ensure compatibility, I purchased a Belkin access point with N. I did this because both of them use the Atheros chipset (Do not buy a Linksys unless you live in Europe because the US model uses a Broadcom chipset).

It says I am connecting at 300Mbps. ooooooohhhhhh, I feel manly. Then I go to do something. I am transferring a file from my NAS. On wireless, 90 minutes. Stop transferring, plug the network cable in, start again, and it says 15 minutes.

The subjective moral is, the laptop is reporting incredible speeds, but real life utilization says not so much.

#37 Post by **tomh009** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:21 pm

dgrey wrote:The subjective moral is, the laptop is reporting incredible speeds, but real life utilization says not so much.

And that is indeed the truth! 100base-T isn't quite dead yet ...

Alltweed · #38 Post by **Alltweed** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:57 am

Did anyone open the laptop to see if their is a 3rd ant i.e. for machines without the integrated WWAN card.

Check:

1) Is their a default 3rd ant w/o the n card, but it gets added automatically to machine types referenced in an earlier post?

2) Or is it only added when a ncard is ordered for a machine type that supports N??

I just started a thread on the n card, 3rd ant and more - the concensus is still murky there as well..

A lenovo tech told me the 3rd ant is only for the integrated WWAn and does not connect to the N card. Its the buldge on the rt side of TP and you can see it clearly in the LCD parts list.

I can;t believe this is such a mystery in this group and lenovo tech support.

EOMtp · #39 Post by **EOMtp** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:08 am

Alltweed wrote:I can;t believe this is such a mystery in this group...

No mystery. One receives a machine with the antennas configured based on the WLAN and WWAN setup:
- 802.11a/b/g WLAN = 2 antennas
- 802.11n without WWAN = 3 antennas for WLAN
- 802.11n with WWAN = 2 antennas for WLAN and 2 antennas for WWAN.

Alltweed · #40 Post by **Alltweed** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:23 am

EOTM

From the reply you gave me on the other thread - it sounded like I needed to order the 3rd ant for the n card in addition to the N card.

Here, your post implies that if I order a t60 without WWAN, but with the N card - the T60 will be configured with 3rd ant automatically?

Why would their be a sep part # for the 3rd Ant if thats the case?

I hope I am not being overly dense at this late hour

EOMtp · #41 Post by **EOMtp** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 4:33 am

Alltweed wrote:Why would their be a sep part # for the 3rd Ant

Every part has a FRU #. The presence of a FRU # is not indicative of the part being an item that one has to order separately. For example, there is a FRU # for the PC Card cage, but that does not mean that one has to order the PC Card cage separately in order for it to be present in the notebook. Same goes for the 3rd "N" antenna, i.e., if you order a machine with an "N"-card and no WWAN, then the 3rd "N" antenna will be part of the built machine.

pinesol · #42 Post by **pinesol** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:25 am

Alltweed wrote:EOTM

From the reply you gave me on the other thread - it sounded like I needed to order the 3rd ant for the n card in addition to the N card.

Here, your post implies that if I order a t60 without WWAN, but with the N card - the T60 will be configured with 3rd ant automatically?

Why would their be a sep part # for the 3rd Ant if thats the case?

I hope I am not being overly dense at this late hour

I don't think so. I bought a T60 with an N card configured in it and I think I have only two antennas installed. The space where the 3rd antenna should be is empty.

So, the 3rd one is optional for better performance of the N card.

EOMtp · #43 Post by **EOMtp** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 1:57 pm

pinesol wrote:I bought a T60 with an N card configured in it and I think I have only two antennas installed. The space where the 3rd antenna should be is empty.

So, the 3rd one is optional for better performance of the N card.

Unless you took apart the LCD cover in order to look, if you don't have the WWAN antenna "bulge" on the LCD cover, then you cannot tell from the outside whether or not you have the 3rd "N" antenna. One cannot tell the difference between a "blank" cover where the bulge on the LCD cover would be and a 3rd antenna installed there. You need to look at the "N"-card to see how many of the antenna connectors are used.

pinesol · #44 Post by **pinesol** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:44 pm

EOMtp wrote:Unless you took apart the LCD cover in order to look, if you don't have the WWAN antenna "bulge" on the LCD cover, then you cannot tell from the outside whether or not you have the 3rd "N" antenna. One cannot tell the difference between a "blank" cover where the bulge on the LCD cover would be and a 3rd antenna installed there. You need to look at the "N"-card to see how many of the antenna connectors are used.

I can clearly see the two installed antennas without opening the cover as they have distinct marks on the plates that covers the slots. That is why I assume the third one looks the same. If you insist that that is not the case, I would not argue with you.

Anyway, you also stated that Lenovo installs only two antennas for the N card if they also have to install ones for WWAN. So that means two antennas are good enough. That is why I guess two antennas are standard and the third optional.

iatacs19 · #45 Post by **iatacs19** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:39 pm

i took out the keyboard and checked mine 2613HPU and it does not have the 3rd antenna.

EOMtp · #46 Post by **EOMtp** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:36 pm

iatacs19 wrote:2613HPU ... does not have the 3rd antenna.

Why should it? The machine is "Wireless upgradable", which defaults to 802.11a/b/g, not N.
Question: Does the LCD cover have the "bulge" of the WWAN antenna? I am asking because I would like to know if "Wireless upgradable" machines are now being shipped with the WWAN antennas also installed or just with 2 WLAN antennas installed. (My guess is that the "bulge" is not there on your machine's LCD cover.)

iatacs19 · #47 Post by **iatacs19** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:31 am

It does not have the WWAN side bulge. What does the side bulge have to do with the 3rd antenna for 802.11n ???

EOMtp · #48 Post by **EOMtp** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:14 am

iatacs19 wrote:What does the side bulge have to do with the 3rd antenna for 802.11n ???

Its presence would preclude the possibility of the 3rd WLAN antenna.

Now I know that "Wireless ready" machines mean that they have only 2 WLAN antennas and no WWAN antennas. Given that they don't have WWAN antennas, they could just as easily have had 3 WLAN antennas -- but they don't. That information could be filled in only empirically, which you did. Thank you.

mybellyisempty · #49 Post by **mybellyisempty** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:33 am

Simple yes/no is what I need here.

My T60 has a 3945ABG wireless, my network is run off a Belkin 802.11G router.

Would going for the Atheros ABGN provide a significant increase in signal strength over the 3945 in a G environment? my 3945 is working perfectly for me now, although it seems like it might not have quite the power my T43's Atheros ABG did.

Would 802.11N work properly on a 2 antennea system (I checked mine, and it only has 2, but based off of EOMtp's comments, this looks "normal"?
Properly enough to warrant my upgrading to an 802.11N router?

My Dell E1705 currently has a Broadcomm based Dell 1390 Wireless card in it. If the Atheros is significantly better than the 3945, I'll buy it, and push the 3945 down to the Dell, and be left with the 1390 to get rid of.

Also, where do I get the ABGN card? I don't see it listed on IBM's site.

(I've used Atheros cards in the past and typically preferred them to the Intel cards(although the 2915ABG and Atheros ABG worked comparably), and wished that my T60 came with ABGN already...but oh well.)

Alltweed · #50 Post by **Alltweed** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:00 pm

If your router is standard G, you will not see much performance benefit if you upgrade to N unless you have stability problems. Many people on this thread have noted that the N provides better connection reliablity and signal thruput for their b/g networks.

Re: 3rd Ant N

In general, the concensus is that the more antennas the better. This has to do with signals quality issues. Thats a simplistic statement relative to the detailed analysis others have provided , but one I share as a result of reading about the Netgear Rangemaster router which supports MIMO. Its the only ext unit that has 7 antennas to compensate for poor signals.

Back to thinkpads.

The 3rd ant mystery is that when you call lenovo support, you get different answers - Yes their is a 3rd ant for N cards or no their is not.

The problem here is twofold:

1) Their is an FRU # for a LAN wireless 3rd Ant listed in LCD parts
2) None of the HW diagrams show the 3rd ant for the Lan wireless only WWAN - ie far right side or a buldge on lcd if looking at the TP

Thus, reps are making conclusions on either not seeing the 3rd ant in the diagrams or concluding their must be one by default due to the fru part #.

So, for now, I am concluding their is a 3rd ant with N card equiped TP's assuming their actually exist this FRU replacement part.

Ultimately, what would help is if someone would open their "N" equiped TP without the WWAN card(to reduce confusion) and let us know what they see? Do we have a left, bottom and right side Ant on LCD or 3 wires coming out of the N card ?

mybellyisempty · #51 Post by **mybellyisempty** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:24 pm

Alltweed wrote:Ultimately, what would help is if someone would open their "N" equiped TP without the WWAN card(to reduce confusion) and let us know what they see? Do we have a left, bottom and right side Ant on LCD or 3 wires coming out of the N card ?

Actually, I think we should see those that have the WWAN and those that do not.

If there are 3 antennea for the N cards on a WWAN system, rather than 2, that'll mean quite a bit.

I know the manual mentions a 3rd antennea on N models....but I'm curious if it's still there with a WWAN system, or if it is indeed 2x2 rather than 1x3 + 1x2

Alltweed · #52 Post by **Alltweed** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:37 pm

See what your saying.

I would think that it should still be their if their is a WWAN card which we know has the 3rd ant built into lcd buldge.. We also know that the N 3rd ant works separately from the WWAN 3rd Ant according to what one tech told me.

I agree, both reviews would be helpful.

One tech who I had little time to ramble on with thought he saw in one diagram a 3rd ant for the Lan wireless that was routed along the bottom bezal in addition to the left and right side of LCD. I was unable to substanciate this nor was I able to see this in any HW maint manuals I reviewed for my config which is basically nothign more than the main LCD parts list fo a T60 anyway. It did not seem to map out specific parts such as an N card.

mybellyisempty · #53 Post by **mybellyisempty** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:30 am

bumping this - where do I get an ABGN card? I don't see it listed on Lenovo's site.

r. aster · #54 Post by **r. aster** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:13 am

Alltweed wrote:Back to thinkpads.

The 3rd ant mystery is that when you call lenovo support, you get different answers - Yes their is a 3rd ant for N cards or no their is not.

The problem here is twofold:

1) Their is an FRU # for a LAN wireless 3rd Ant listed in LCD parts
2) None of the HW diagrams show the 3rd ant for the Lan wireless only WWAN - ie far right side or a buldge on lcd if looking at the TP

Thus, reps are making conclusions on either not seeing the 3rd ant in the diagrams or concluding their must be one by default due to the fru part #.

So, for now, I am concluding their is a 3rd ant with N card equiped TP's assuming their actually exist this FRU replacement part.

Ultimately, what would help is if someone would open their "N" equiped TP without the WWAN card(to reduce confusion) and let us know what they see? Do we have a left, bottom and right side Ant on LCD or 3 wires coming out of the N card ?

See this thread, a few posts from the top: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=39024 .

Net: On my 8744-5BU which ships with the a/b/g/n card., all three antenna terminals are connected, as shown in the T60WS HMM. There is no WWAN in this machine and therefore no bulge. I did not do futher dissasembly to locate the actual antennas.

RA

FirstTimer · #55 Post by **FirstTimer** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:04 pm

In my 9450-GBU with atheros abgn card I do not have third antenna cable going to the network card. Only two cables are plugged to it.

I can't say however that it is working either...
My connection is highly unstable and copying large files are imposible. My two old laptops (G network) have no problems at all in the same network

brentpresley · #56 Post by **brentpresley** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:09 pm

tomh009 wrote:
dgrey wrote:The subjective moral is, the laptop is reporting incredible speeds, but real life utilization says not so much.
And that is indeed the truth! 100base-T isn't quite dead yet ...

This is the EXACT reason I upgraded the home network to Gigabit Ethernet w/ Jumbo Frames on Cat 6 cabling.

BIG file transfers have never been so nice.

It will be at least 10 years before wireless catches up.
(and by then I'll probably put fiber in the house

)

cheeebs · #57 Post by **cheeebs** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:36 am

mybellyisempty wrote:bumping this - where do I get an ABGN card? I don't see it listed on Lenovo's site.

i just called Lenovo to get that card, the Atheros, for my 2613-CTO. service said that part is currently only available to configured to order machines but not yet as a separate part. she also said it should be available very soon, however... possibly by the end of the month. she offered to take my number and call me when it became available for order as a separate part.

Pascal_TTH · #58 Post by **Pascal_TTH** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:28 am

I plan to replace the PCI-express Intel 802.11 abg from my T60p with an IBM 802.11 a/b/g/n Mini-PCIe Wireless Card Manufactured by Atheros. I read the Hardware Maintenance Manual - ThinkPad T60/p : ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/pc/pccbbs/mo ... 844_01.pdf

On page 83, they tell how to change the card. It seems to be 3 antenna for those 802.11 n card. On page 81, for Intel 802.11 abg there are only two ones.

Does some one already change the Centrino Intel 802.11 abg with Atheros 802.11 abgn and use it with only two antennas ?

SHoTTa35 · #59 Post by **SHoTTa35** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:40 pm

if you're gonna bring up an old thread again at least read what's happened since that thread was posted.

As for the 3 vs 2 antenna thing, you can use the card with just 2 antennas but you wont get the MIMO which is what N is all about, you get the range and speed since that's what the third antenna brings.

Pascal_TTH · #60 Post by **Pascal_TTH** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:35 pm

I read all the topic. No one tell he swap from Intel abg to Atheros abgn. I would like to have some feedback about such an upgrade.

There is also not clear answer about the antennas (see mybellyisempty post). A T60p with Bluetooth (1), WAN (1) and wifi n (3) have 5 antennas ? Can the Wan antanna be used like third antenna ? Wan will be useless most time in my country.

New 802.11n wireless cards

T60P upgradability

Re: T60P upgradability

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