T42 shuts down when i move it

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Amigo-2k · #31 Post by **Amigo-2k** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:07 pm

I would love to buy a used mobo, but I don't want to drop another 100 bucks and then rip it apart and then find out I'm unable to put it back together .....

I would rather cut my losses and purchase something else to get back up and running again.

RukRem · #32 Post by **RukRem** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:49 am

i had the same exact prblem and it was the planar... I am actually on my 3rd system board at the moment... it is amazing that IBM actually sells these computers knowing full well that they are unreliable... mine came with a 3 year warranty, but you know right after that is up this thing becomes a paper weight... system board seems to go about every 5-7 months... who wants to pay 800/ incident to fix it... also repaired on my unit: new lcd & keyboard (both of which were damaged by IBM during the system board repairs and months of hassling them to fix it)... i just hope system boards on the t60 are not as problematic because i am seriously about to switch to apple...

teisole · #33 Post by **teisole** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:16 am

amigo,

ive had my mobo completely removed from the t42. ive never before tried to take a laptop apart, but found it extremely easy. all in all it took an afternoon with careful progress.

during the disassembly i used the service manual for the t42 found at http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... MIGR-46464
(ill recommend to look it through first and get an overview of the work).

the manual even notes where which screws goes etc.

my advice is, that if you get a new mobo you can replace it yourself. it might be a good idea to keep a "log" over in what succession you take out the various parts, though.

christopher_wolf · #34 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:43 am

Amigo-2k wrote:I would love to buy a used mobo, but I don't want to drop another 100 bucks and then rip it apart and then find out I'm unable to put it back together .....

You can always try practicing with taking it out and putting it back in before sinking 100 bucks into a new planar. After awhile, it actually becomes rather easy if you follow the steps and track everything carefully. Even if that goes wrong for no reason of your own, you can still send it in to get repaired.

Amigo-2k · #35 Post by **Amigo-2k** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:14 pm

Thanks for the input.

I'm thinking more and more about purchasing a used board and giving it a shot this spring.

Any input on where to purchase a used board at?

christopher_wolf · #36 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:45 pm

You can either try the Marketplace here or eBay. There are some things to check before you grab a planar from eBay although most such advice is covered pretty well in the Marketplace and Hardware/Software conferences.

#37 Post by **K. Eng** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:39 pm

RukRem wrote:i had the same exact prblem and it was the planar... I am actually on my 3rd system board at the moment... it is amazing that IBM actually sells these computers knowing full well that they are unreliable... mine came with a 3 year warranty, but you know right after that is up this thing becomes a paper weight... system board seems to go about every 5-7 months... who wants to pay 800/ incident to fix it... also repaired on my unit: new lcd & keyboard (both of which were damaged by IBM during the system board repairs and months of hassling them to fix it)... i just hope system boards on the t60 are not as problematic because i am seriously about to switch to apple...

Exactly my feelings regarding the T4x. Even if one does buy a used system board, the same problem is bound to occur sooner or later. It's best to avoid the aggrevation and buy a T60 or Z60.

teisole · #38 Post by **teisole** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:19 am

K. eng,

yeah i agree to the extent that if you need a transportable, reliable computer it probably is a better option to get a new one. however, it might be worth the effort just to fix it up and use it as a home-pc or a server or whatever. this reasoning being because it still is a fine machine (when it works), so from my point of view its worth saving.

merry christmas to you all! hope youll find a t60 under the tree

erasmus · #39 Post by **erasmus** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 8:21 am

Amigo,

You can find new and used mobo's/ system boards on eBay. I had similar problems with a T40 and ordered a new mobo from this seller:

http://stores.ebay.com/itthinker-store_ ... idZ2QQtZkm

Prices from 160 USD. Expect it to arrive in 2-3 weeks. It think the seller is pretty reliable - others from this forum has used him.

Amigo-2k · #40 Post by **Amigo-2k** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:10 pm

thanks for the link!

I actually purchased a refurb D600 dell today (1.8, 1 gig ram, 80 hard disk, DVD+RW, XP Pro, with a 3yr warranty from Dell) for 600 bucks.

But I still would like to fix up the T42 too!

vlyne · #41 Post by **vlyne** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:55 am

Amigo-2k wrote:But I still would like to fix up the T42 too!

There is a reference on thinkwiki to someone who has fixed their T40/T42: ThinkWiki - Garbled Screen. I don't quite follow the method they used:

...had to make a custom tip for my heat gun by bending some aluminum to a square slightly larger than the chip (1.25" square). 15 seconds at the 1000F setting successfully resoldered the chip for me.

Anyone have any ideas?
Cheers

#42 Post by **rkawakami** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:42 am

vlyne wrote:
...had to make a custom tip for my heat gun by bending some aluminum to a square slightly larger than the chip (1.25" square). 15 seconds at the 1000F setting successfully resoldered the chip for me.
Anyone have any ideas?
Cheers

Yes. What he appears to have done is constructed a piece of metal the same size as the graphics chip and then heated the entire package in an attempt to re-flow the solder balls underneath the package. Generally not recommended to do this, but whatever works

. The danger is that you overheat the chip and burn it up, but with a system that doesn't work right to begin with, it's probably worth the risk. The proper way to fix this kind of problem is to use a hot-air reflow soldering station (mucho dinero); not something the average Joe (or Jane) has access to. We have one at work but without the proper tip to handle BGA packages of this size.

To further elaborate: Most of the large ICs in the motherboard use what is called BGA (ball grid array) packages to attach themselves to the pads on the board. These balls have a thin layer of solder paste applied to them at the factory and then the entire board subjected to a heating/cooling profile to allow the solder to melt and (hopefully) attach the balls to the pads on the motherboard. Since these balls are located on the bottom of the package, there is no way that you can see them without using an x-ray inspection system. There's also no way to get a regular soldering iron or gun directly onto any one of them. What the poster on the thinkwiki site did was to figure out a way to heat up the entire chip to the extent that the solder balls melted and re-connected to the board. He took a large piece of metal, shaped it to the same size as the package, turned up the heat on his gun and evidentally applied enough heat to get the solder to flow. He could have successfully re-attached the chip to the board at the same time destroying the chip inside the package. He got lucky.

vlyne · #43 Post by **vlyne** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:33 am

Thanks for the explanation Ray. I managed to find a picture at BGA image. It says they use a "reflow oven". So, the chip itself must get up to solder melting temperatures!

rkawakami wrote:The proper way to fix this kind of problem is to use a hot-air reflow soldering station (mucho dinero); not something the average Joe (or Jane) has access to. We have one at work but without the proper tip to handle BGA packages of this size.

What does a proper tip for a BGA package look like? Is it some sort of a hot air funnel like those on a hair dryer?

This is way more difficult than resoldering the large tabs on those inductors!
Cheers

rpwt · #44 Post by **rpwt** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:01 am

First, I want to thank Bill and these forums for helping me understand my problem. T42P about 2 years old (3 year warrantee - yea). It started randomly halting (black screen, no USB power, etc.) in the first couple of months. This I could live with. In the last 4-5 months, it became more frequent until I had to purposefully flex the case to make it work for awhile.

I called the support# and talked with a real dumbo who entered my information totally incorrectly. The next morning I called again to confirm the repair entry and it was cleared up beautifully. (Thanks John Faltz.) The return box was on the doorstep the next day. From the point I sent in the unit until its return was under 3 days!

Everything is working beautifully now. I will take more care in how I handle the unit in the future.

#45 Post by **rkawakami** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:33 pm

vlyne wrote:What does a proper tip for a BGA package look like? Is it some sort of a hot air funnel like those on a hair dryer?

Pretty much. If I can't find an image online in the next hour or so and update this post, then I'll take a picture of the ones we have at work. The reflow oven you mentioned is the normal way of assembling the boards in the factory, however they are much more sophisticated than the name, "oven", implies. My understanding is that most, if not all, are computer controlled to deliver a precise temperature profile. The entire board is heated up to a specific temperature, lower than what would make the solder melt, held there for a time and then a quick application of extra heat is made, with the dual purpose of, a) melting the solder, and b) trying to minimize the exposure time/temperature of the components on the board.

ref: http://www.zeph.com/zt-7.htm (rework station w/pics of tips)
ref: http://www.novastarinc.com/reflow.html (industrial reflow oven)

vlyne · #46 Post by **vlyne** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:05 pm

Yes, it's more sophisticated than I had hoped it would be. The trick seems to be to heat up the board first (to lower than solder melting temperature), then the chip. Whereas the poster on the thinkwiki site got away with just heating up the chip. There are a few of these reflow machines on ebay but even the low-end ones are beyond my budget. I'm just wondering if the underside of the motherboard (beneath where the chip is located) is free of components and can be heated up? Will have a look next time I have my T42 apart.

rpwt wrote:Everything is working beautifully now. I will take more care in how I handle the unit in the future.

That would seem to be the main issue with the 40 series. It's akin to getting an ice cube off a tray. You can't pull it off easily but if you flex the board the ice cube just pops off. It's exactly the same problem with these ceramic chips stuck onto a flexible PCB (but perhaps there may also be issues with the initial solder reflow). The key is to not let the PCB flex. I know my T42 has bits missing from the plastic case (and I do treat it carefully!) so the machine as a whole is not engineered to take a lot of flex. I'm going to avoid the 40 series if I can and the ones I do have now get treated rather gently.
Cheers

Amigo-2k · #47 Post by **Amigo-2k** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:37 pm

erasmus wrote:Amigo,

You can find new and used mobo's/ system boards on eBay. I had similar problems with a T40 and ordered a new mobo from this seller:

http://stores.ebay.com/itthinker-store_ ... idZ2QQtZkm

Prices from 160 USD. Expect it to arrive in 2-3 weeks. It think the seller is pretty reliable - others from this forum has used him.

I know I have a T42, but how can I find out the right part number that I would need. I checked out the above ebay seller and see a couple of T42/p boards for sale.

Any clue as to where I need to look for my part number?

erasmus · #48 Post by **erasmus** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:40 am

You will find the model type (FRU number) of your system board under the RAM cover (bottom socket).

#49 Post by **GomJabbar** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:56 am

You might want to check out this thread regarding system board part number differences. I am not sure if the information in it is current or not. Ideally you should get the part number off of the board itself.

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=25026

erasmus · #50 Post by **erasmus** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:48 pm

I just almost fixed my T40 with a loose GPU.

The trick is to get something stocked between the GPU and the keyboard. So when you tighten the keyboard screws under the trackpoint buttons it will make a firm pressure on the GPU.

I added a little aluminum cooling profile on the GPU - and fixed it with some cooling paste. On top of that I added enough post-it stickers to make the pressure on the GPU when then keyboard is back on.

So far it works.

Thanks to vlyne and rkawakami bringing up the loose GPU issue.

teisole · #51 Post by **teisole** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:44 am

erasmus wrote:I just almost fixed my T40 with a loose GPU.

The trick is to get something stocked between the GPU and the keyboard. So when you tighten the keyboard screws under the trackpoint buttons it will make a firm pressure on the GPU.

I added a little aluminum cooling profile on the GPU - and fixed it with some cooling paste. On top of that I added enough post-it stickers to make the pressure on the GPU when then keyboard is back on.

Is it correctly understood that you put some material (aluminium & post-its) on the copper plate thats already on top of the GPU?

And for curiosity: when you say "so far it works", what does that mean? That it is stable towards movement and shaking?

dghahn · #52 Post by **dghahn** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 11:44 am

erasmus wrote:I just almost fixed my T40 with a loose GPU.

The trick is to get something stocked between the GPU and the keyboard. So when you tighten the keyboard screws under the trackpoint buttons it will make a firm pressure on the GPU.

erasmus, you're brilliant. I have had the same problem with my t41, and it's been sitting on a shelf for three months. I used the post-its to apply pressure to the gpu and my t41 has been on all morning(I could never get it to stay on for more than 10 seconds in the past).

I had to replace the t41 the day after it went down, but if this works it makes a great spare. I've been looking for an alternative to replacing the motherboard for three months now because while I love the machine it isn't worth the $400 for a new one.

I know this is probably not a permanent solution, but it's working for now.

secret · #53 Post by **secret** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 12:42 am

Would a loose GPU cause the screen not to come on when the power button is pushed or is this caused by a different problem? See, sometimes my screen will fail to come on when I turn the power button on and then other times, it will come on. Also, at times when I'm logged on to an Operating System, the screen will freeze while the hard drive stops if I was to move the computer (not always though).

Thanks in advanced.

erasmus · #54 Post by **erasmus** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:55 am

erasmus wrote:I just almost fixed my T40 with a loose GPU.

The trick is to get something stocked between the GPU and the keyboard. So when you tighten the keyboard screws under the trackpoint buttons it will make a firm pressure on the GPU.

I added a little aluminum cooling profile on the GPU - and fixed it with some cooling paste. On top of that I added enough post-it stickers to make the pressure on the GPU when then keyboard is back on.

So far it works.

Thanks to vlyne and rkawakami bringing up the loose GPU issue.

Yes! .. and It still works

I can lift-, bend-, twist it, move it around, open/close screen (haven't done any drop tests - yet

)

Glad to hear others have succeeded too.

Re. teisole and secret -

I think that the trick will help you out too. Sounds like its the GPU.

To be sure that it is the GPU, remove the keyboard screws and lift it up - but leave the connector in. Press down firmly on the GPU with a finger and power on. If its boots and you can bend/flex it without freezing - then you now where the fault is.

teisole: Sounds like you have a long fan (and other GPU than the Radeon 7500) You could try the same, but I don't know if you can do it with the long fan.

secret · #55 Post by **secret** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 9:39 am

Ok, let's say that I open it and complete the tasks you mentioned - are we then able to replace the GPU or is this item joined to the Motherboard?

#56 Post by **GomJabbar** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 9:45 am

secret wrote:Ok, let's say that I open it and complete the tasks you mentioned - are we then able to replace the GPU or is this item joined to the Motherboard?

If I am not mistaken, I believe I read that the GPU's are ball grid arrays. Not something that is easily replaced or resoldered. See following for more info regarding BGA's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_grid_array

EDIT: The following article confirms that the ATI Mobility Radeon 7500 and Radeon 9000 are BGA's.

http://www.anandtech.com/mobile/showdoc.aspx?i=1692&p=7

frankie66 · #57 Post by **frankie66** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 10:45 am

Could it be the CPU is overheating? When it gets too hot it will auto switch off. If there is not enough paste between cpu and the heatsink of the fan it would get hot quick and turn off. Could the post-its be pressing the heatsink down on the processor and ensuring it stays cool? I would remove the fan unit reseat the cpu add some paste and reseat the fan carefully making a good connection to the cpu.

vlyne · #58 Post by **vlyne** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:27 am

CPU overheating would result in a shutdown (a more consistent problem) whereas a loose GPU would cause all sorts of display issues.

I've noticed that the Australian IBM website for refurbished laptops is dominated by the 40 series. This could simply reflect the model cycle but it could also reflect the fact that this model is more prone to the problem with the GPU. These refurbished laptops also only have a limited 90 day warranty. The prevalence of this problem and its severity is enough I would have thought to force IBM to issue a recall. As individuals I don't think we have enough clout for IBM to take notice but if enough Corporate customers are having problems with this model maybe there will be some action? If you have warranty still left I would conduct some simple "stress tests".
Cheers

#59 Post by **underclocker** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:31 pm

This is a very good find - pressure on the GPU fixes the freeze ups.

I'm wondering if the GPU coming loose is actually from chassis flexing or is it just a defect from a poor GPU to planar connection?

If the later, perhaps a class action suit or recall are required?

Maybe there is a way to repair these boards?

Amigo-2k · #60 Post by **Amigo-2k** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 2:51 pm

erasmus wrote:I just almost fixed my T40 with a loose GPU.

The trick is to get something stocked between the GPU and the keyboard. So when you tighten the keyboard screws under the trackpoint buttons it will make a firm pressure on the GPU.

I added a little aluminum cooling profile on the GPU - and fixed it with some cooling paste. On top of that I added enough post-it stickers to make the pressure on the GPU when then keyboard is back on.

So far it works.

Thanks to vlyne and rkawakami bringing up the loose GPU issue.

where can I buy such a thing:

aluminum cooling profile

I'll try the post - it note thing tonight.

T42 shuts down when i move it

t42 are stinky

Re: t42 are stinky

Lenovo repaired MOBO in under one day

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