I know this sounds crazy, but ...

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DarkThinker · #1 Post by **DarkThinker** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:00 pm

would there be anyway in he** to install a T43 Keyboard on my T60 ?

DarkThinker

agarza · #2 Post by **agarza** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:01 pm

What for? I don't know about the internal connector on a T60 keyboard.

DarkThinker · #3 Post by **DarkThinker** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:11 pm

benottomex wrote:What for? I don't know about the internal connector on a T60 keyboard.

So many reasons :

- I have been using Thinkpads for a long time, and I loved the layout on the older keyboards.

- Those 2 stupid buttons are useless for me under Linux, they just cram the keys and I keep hitting them by mistake

- I don't like the new buttons for power, volume and the ThinkVantage, the older layout looked much better.

- The Fx keys and the upper right corner keys were of a different color, now they are all black, that is not the norm of things!

- The older keyboard felt a tad better, and if I can instal it in my system, given the above personal benefits to me, then why not ?

Thanks
DarkThinker

christopher_wolf · #4 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:10 am

I am not aware of any way to install a T43 keyboard, or indeed any T4X Series Thinkpad keyboard, on a T60 Thinkpad.

DarkThinker · #5 Post by **DarkThinker** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:57 am

christopher_wolf wrote:I am not aware of any way to install a T43 keyboard, or indeed any T4X Series Thinkpad keyboard, on a T60 Thinkpad.

Do you know if it's a physical restriction(fits or doesn't), or is it a compatability restriction (port has differnt connection mappings ?)

Thanks
DarkThinker

christopher_wolf · #6 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:43 pm

Physical incompatibility with the framing/chassis interface for the most part; also, and this is a smaller difference but a difference nevertheless, the connectors appear to be different as well as the extra hardware introduced with the addition of the Windows Key.

Next time I get the chance to compare the two, I will look for that specific difference and see if there is anything operator-side that can be done about it.

ronan_zj · #7 Post by **ronan_zj** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:47 pm

christopher_wolf wrote:Physical incompatibility with the framing/chassis interface for the most part; also, and this is a smaller difference but a difference nevertheless, the connectors appear to be different as well as the extra hardware introduced with the addition of the Windows Key.

Next time I get the chance to compare the two, I will look for that specific difference and see if there is anything operator-side that can be done about it.

we can do that if I get my T60 soon, since I am livin in SF. and I have extra brandnew T42 keyboard in closet.

christopher_wolf · #8 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:03 pm

ronan_zj wrote: we can do that if I get my T60 soon, since I am livin in SF. and I have extra brandnew T42 keyboard in closet.

Which I can only assume you have saved for this, very special occasion.

OnnoK123 · #9 Post by **OnnoK123** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:08 pm

Dont you think you are making a very huge problem of a tiny issue? I meen the only thing different is de color of the volume button's and the windos key is not even a cm wide...

DarkThinker · #10 Post by **DarkThinker** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:28 am

OnnoK123 wrote:Dont you think you are making a very huge problem of a tiny issue? I meen the only thing different is de color of the volume button's and the windos key is not even a cm wide...

Well maybe for you it's not an issue, but for a programmer, that needs to type lines of code by the hundreds daily and sometimes more, it becomes stressful not to have the size of the ALT and CTRL as it was, trust me.
I know I sound picky, but realize this :

[rant]

The least that they could have done is have an extra keyboard available in their inventory for those that like an old Thinkpad style keyboard (at least no win and right menu keys at least!), and I don't care if I would have to wait a month or two to get it (because maybe they would have it in low quantities or on demand), but I would like to have an option and a say in this matter, no?

Lenovo claims that they have received demands from many customers that they would like to have a win key and some other crap in there.

Fine it's good to respond to customer 's feedback, but what about the rest of the thousands of Thinkpad owners, did they check with them ? NO!

They had setup a poll for the silver vs black crap, ok that's good, but not for changing something much more important than that, something that would affect the user's productivity?

So let's say a couple of hundred of Lenovo customers said they would like to have the extra keys on the keyboard, OK, that would have been nice if the addition of the keys didn't affect everybody else, but it does, otherwise I wouldn't be typing this, would I?

As for the color of the keys, well it's not a main reason, but like it was better as it was before, and those silver power and volume keys are just ANNOYING! The entire laptop is originally designed with a dark colors theme (Black, dark Red & dark Purple) it's peaceful for the eyes and there is harmony in there and it's not distracting when you try and look at the LCD. But some dipsh!t from Lenovo's design team, scratched his [censored] one day and decided to throw in those bright silver keys which do not fit at all with the theme of a T60 and have this very different shape cylindrical shape that doesn't look as well as integrated into the keyboard as the previous model, not even by a longshot, it looks to me like the kid of one of the designers called the shot on that stuff!

I wouldn't have complained had it been the Z series only that got these sh!tty additions (well that was the case originally), but the T series is supposed to look as professional as possible, and the sh!t they keep throwing in is just ruining it TBH.

I am not a Thinkpad owner for no reason, I pay a price premium when buying Thinkpads with comparison to other laptops because I expect nothing less than best quality and design + innovation from the leading if not best laptop out there for the x86 market.

Lenovo needs to stop throwing it's stinky media oriented ideas all over these business laptops in this increasing fashion or otherwise they will be losing some customers over time as they mess up more and more things people really loved about there Thinkpads.

> Today they add a windows key that is useless to many of the Thinkpad owners and almost all of Linux users and they add in that useless right click menu key and cram the space on the right too. For God's sake! How many of you out there really use that key often if at all?

Tomorrow they will decide that the Trackpoint is a thing of the past and they need to move on and ditch it!
After they decide that being the only laptop in the market that offers a middle mouse button on the system doesn't mean crap and they take it off, because a couple of kids will call them up and demand it be removed and they will promptly respond by doing so, and will ignore the screams of the many loyal users out there!

- The day after that the nice standard Home / End, Page up / Down ... keys layout vanishes, and they'll turn it into the same layout as those stupid and boring Dell laptops out there, were you have one straight line at the far right of the keyboard containing all of the aforementioned keys especially made for people that don't know how to take advantage of them / don't know how to efficiently use the keys they have on their keyboards and refer to them as "Stupid Keys as they can't type characters with them."

- The day after they'll add a "Launch Windows Media Player Hot Key" right next to the ThinkVantage button, because most people are too stupid to look for it in the start menu and can't see the big fckn icon on the task bar and the desktop, or they are too lazy or because Micro$oft is passing money there way or <insert absurd execuse here>... etc

- Then on the final day after they have done a sh!t load of other plastic surgeries on their Thinkpads, Black Thinkpads disappear. Then Lenovo releases Thinkpads in standard Apple white "because Apple is K00L" and sissy "Pink" , then the sh!t really hits the fan!!

[/rant]

OK I am done

for now

DarkThinker

christopher_wolf · #11 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:31 am

I am reminded of the older days, spoken in the true style of a Vim vs. Emacs warthread...albeit on a different subject (but still related in placement of the Ctrl key!)

DarkThinker · #12 Post by **DarkThinker** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:36 am

christopher_wolf wrote:Spoken in the true style of a Vim vs. Emacs warthread.

Don't dare start a Vim vs Emacs war in here! Last time I witnessed one, we had two developers in the office with broken noses and fractured CAPS LOCK KEYS!!! BEWARE!

As for the caps lock key I have it remapped under Linux as an Escape key, that makes my life much easier under Vim

DarkThinker

#13 Post by **tomh009** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:36 am

DarkThinker wrote:Don't dare start a Vim vs Emacs war in here! Last time I witnessed one, we had two developers in the office with broken noses and fractured CAPS LOCK KEYS!!! BEWARE!

Vim ... does anyone know why vim (text version, not GUI version) would pause for about 20 seconds on startup (before displaying the message about the unknown terminal type)? It's slow enough that I rarely use it on Windows.

But I do use "real" vi on Unix boxes daily ... the commands are built into my subconscious now after 20+ years so even if emacs were better (gasp!) I wouldn't be able to switch!

DarkThinker · #14 Post by **DarkThinker** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:01 am

tomh009 wrote:
DarkThinker wrote:Don't dare start a Vim vs Emacs war in here! Last time I witnessed one, we had two developers in the office with broken noses and fractured CAPS LOCK KEYS!!! BEWARE!
Vim ... does anyone know why vim (text version, not GUI version) would pause for about 20 seconds on startup (before displaying the message about the unknown terminal type)? It's slow enough that I rarely use it on Windows.

But I do use "real" vi on Unix boxes daily ... the commands are built into my subconscious now after 20+ years so even if emacs were better (gasp!) I wouldn't be able to switch!

I rather be stabbed in the heart rather than use vim on windows, ARRGHH!!

VIM under Linux is something else, used to be a vi user, but vim is where it's at, syntax highlighting for pretty much every scripting and programming language out there, directional keys and all those good features that I can't live without.

You see I never understood the text editor wars, here is my viewpoint on things anyways:

VIM / VI is a text editor, it can be run through command line or through an interface, it's simple, lightweight and fast.

EMACS, is good software that allows you to edit text, in addition to checking your email, cooking dinner, some house keeping and walking the dog!

You see I don't want my text editor to do house keeping and to cook me dinner and what not, I just wanted a piece of software that lets me edit text PERIOD.
However the emacs folks don't get that idea not one bit, I mean why not make a distro and call it emacs ?

Anyways if Emacs is someone's choice I could care less if they agree with me or not as long as there happy I am happy, but still text editor wars are ironic as hell though!

Note: If you are planning on using vim under windows, then don't use the windows exe it's crap! Instead get cygwin and compile vim from source within cygwin that should work much better for you.

DarkThinker

#15 Post by **JaneL** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:58 am

OK, all of you, including the moderator who first mentioned Vim vs Emacs, who doesn't understand what item #6 in the FAQ says?

#16 Post by **tomh009** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:09 am

nonny wrote:OK, all of you, including the moderator who first mentioned Vim vs Emacs, who doesn't understand what item #6 in the FAQ says?

No wars ... but it doesn't say you can't ask a question about vim, does it?

#17 Post by **JaneL** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:31 am

tomh009 wrote:
nonny wrote:No wars ... but it doesn't say you can't ask a question about vim, does it?

Well, not in the T60 conference...

#18 Post by **tomh009** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:43 am

Point taken.

OnnoK123 · #19 Post by **OnnoK123** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:52 am

Well a Thinkpad is designed for windows. So I think it pretty logical that there is a windows key.
Most people use windows and lots of them like windows keys. Also there are lots of people that don´t give a s***. A few people (choose) to use linux and cant use the windows keys (also lots of these users dont give a s*** about the keys) Does Lenovo need to stick to the old keybord for, lets say, about 5 people like you??

And about the color of the keys that's a matter of personal taste. I like them because of the contrast to the black. It makes a great combination. If they were of aluminium instead of plastic I think they are great.

It's a matter of taste wich keybord you like more, but to freak out for those 2 very small issue's... I think you over react a little...

balapavan · #20 Post by **balapavan** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:28 pm

Dark Thinker, you are my man. I was thinking the same. If only i could have T43 keyboard on T60.
Well, to mention the differences, its just not the noise and color of the keys. The size of the letters on the keys has increased. This IMHO is the most ugly part of the new thinkpad. If you carefully observe, the older keyboards (uptil T43) were just about right. I understand it is a personal preference. But, why would you take a beautiful, successful, most adored and respected laptop and make changes to its appearance? And there is no going back, it seems. Even if i want to spend a couple hundred bucks to replace the new (albeit crappy, IMHO) keyboard, with the T43 keyboard, i cant. Thats the most frustrating thing about it. And the customer service acts as if they are unaware that some feel the keyboard is awkward, for various reasons.

I am out.

DarkThinker · #21 Post by **DarkThinker** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:31 pm

OnnoK123 wrote:Well a Thinkpad is designed for windows. So I think it pretty logical that there is a windows key.
Most people use windows and lots of them like windows keys. Also there are lots of people that don´t give a s***. A few people (choose) to use linux and cant use the windows keys (also lots of these users dont give a s*** about the keys) Does Lenovo need to stick to the old keybord for, lets say, about 5 people like you??

And about the color of the keys that's a matter of personal taste. I like them because of the contrast to the black. It makes a great combination. If they were of aluminium instead of plastic I think they are great.

It's a matter of taste wich keybord you like more, but to freak out for those 2 very small issue's... I think you over react a little...

Well, forget my little rant there for a second, Lenovo has a sh!t load of accessories & parts for thinkpads out there, knowing that they will be changing their keyboard layout, why not at least go with my suggestion in my previous post and have an extra option for those who want to have the old style no win key keyboard layout? That's not too much to ask, is it ?

DarkThinker

OnnoK123 · #22 Post by **OnnoK123** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:53 pm

There will be lots of costs to introduce an other keybord. Seen the fact that probly just a few people will buy it. It costs more money than it will generate. Wich will increase the (already high) price of a thinkpad. Wich will decrease the amount of potential buyers.

Looks like a stupid thing to do if you ask me.

DarkThinker · #23 Post by **DarkThinker** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:18 pm

OnnoK123 wrote:There will be lots of costs to introduce an other keybord. Seen the fact that probly just a few people will buy it. It costs more money than it will generate. Wich will increase the (already high) price of a thinkpad. Wich will decrease the amount of potential buyers.

Looks like a stupid thing to do if you ask me.

But that's assuming that there are not enough people that would get it, but how do you know ?

I think we should setup a poll somewhere in here and check.

DarkThinker

DarkThinker · #24 Post by **DarkThinker** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:18 pm

Thanks for the mod that put a poll in this thread, I was just thinking of setting one up.

Now let's I hope more people see this poll and maybe we will get a better idea about the situation

DarkThinker

#25 Post by **tomh009** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:39 pm

I voted on the more generic question of an old-style keyboard option -- ie would like the old-style keyboard in an X60.

DarkThinker · #26 Post by **DarkThinker** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:43 pm

tomh009 wrote:I voted on the more generic question of an old-style keyboard option -- ie would like the old-style keyboard in an X60.

Bless your soul

Ford5of5 · #27 Post by **Ford5of5** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:16 pm

It sounds to me like u just dont wanna learn the new keyboard. Although I dont care for the windows buttons either. As for the audiocontrols and thinkvantage, well, this is how the t60 is set up. Maybe you should sell your t60 and use he proceeds to spruce up your older TP. Max out the ram beef up the cpu, 7200rpm hdd and ur good to go.

mrpaulin · #28 Post by **mrpaulin** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:33 pm

I can live with the new keyboard, although the Windows keys are a useless annoyance.
What really hurts, though, is the lack of a touchpad-free palm rest option. My beloved A31p never had a touchpad, and both my T42 systems have had the touchpad eliminated by swapping-in the appropriate palm rest. C'mon, Lenovo, how much could it cost to tool up a touchpad-free palm rest for the T60 series?

Next thing you know, they'll eliminate the TrackPoint -- which will eliminate me as a ThinkPad buyer.

#29 Post by **tomh009** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:48 pm

I really don't think the TrackPoint is in any danger, and Lenovo's design blog supports that. If anything, TrackPoint clones are making a comeback on other vendors' business laptops -- HP, Toshiba, Dell etc.

christopher_wolf · #30 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:59 pm

tomh009 wrote:I really don't think the TrackPoint is in any danger, and Lenovo's design blog supports that. If anything, TrackPoint clones are making a comeback on other vendors' business laptops -- HP, Toshiba, Dell etc.

...Which vary greatly in quality from Dell's previous implementation of a recessed island of a point in a large space between the keys to some of the older HP ideas on the trackpoint. They are getting better, yes, but there is still a large part of the market for general purpose laptops that considers them as a "side feature" and not a really essential pointing device, unfortuanately.

I know this sounds crazy, but ...

I want the option to put a T4x keyboard in my T60

I know this sounds crazy, but ...

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