Laptops galore - 5 Thinkpads in for evaluation

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WPWoodJr · #1 Post by **WPWoodJr** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:14 pm

We have five new ThinkPads in for evaluation at my office - a T60p with 14 inch 1400 x 1050 screen, a T60 with 15 inch Flexview 1400 x 1050 screen, a T60 with 15.4 inch 1680 x 1050 screen, a Z61m with 15.4 inch 1680 x 1050 screen, and a Z61p with 15.4 inch 1920 by 1200 screen.

The 15.4 inch T60 uses the same screen as the Z61m. It's a nice bright screen, with pretty good viewing angles but of course not as good as the T60 with the 15 inch Flexview screen. The worst viewing angles by far are on the T60p with the 14 inch screen. The Flexview is definitely a cut above, out of the box it is much less blue and has richer colors than the other screens. Photographers will definitely want a Flexview. All the screens do come up nicely when profiled with a professional tool such as Monaco OptixPro. But the Flexview almost does not need profiling, it's that good. The Z61p with 1920 by 1200 screen is not as bright as the 1680 x 1050 screen on the T60 widescreen and Z61m but it does have similar viewing angles. Many of my colleagues want this screen because of the resolution, but I don't like the weight and size of the Z-Series so for me it's a choice between the widescreen T60 and the T60 15" with the gorgeous Flexview screen. I have to decide by tomorrow! I will post another comment with some screen measurements that I made using Monaco OptixPro.

Contrary to published reports I have read, the speakers have been moved on the new widescreen T60's. They are now located between the keyboard and the screen and appear to be the same speakers that are in the Z series. They don't sound quite as good as the Z series, possibly because the grill over the speakers is thicker and blocks more of the sound. They sound better than the speakers on the old 4:3 T60's that had the speakers in the front of the unit. They have more treble and also more spaciousness as the sound field spreads out over the keyboard.

Tonight I am going to take the widescreen T60 and the Flexview T60, and see how they compare in terms of carrying weight etc. It's a tough choice!

** Edit 12/25/2006 **
I had a chance to test a Mac Book Pro over Xmas and must say the screen is very nice. Brightest screen I've tested at 237.51 cd/m2! Angle of view is pretty good, but not as good as Flexview. Color is too blue like the other non-Flexview laptop screens. I've updated the next post with its stats.

** Edit 1/29/2007 **
We just got the Dell UltraSharpTM 2707WFP 27" monitor and the Dell™ UltraSharp™ 2407WFP 24" monitor in at work. Both of these monitors are gorgeous and the 27" has a relatively large color gamut compared to the other monitors I've tested. So large that the profile produced by Monaco OptixPro actually has to tone down the colors somewhat! I've updated the next post with the stats of these two monitors.

WPWoodJr · #2 Post by **WPWoodJr** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:17 pm

Below are some measurements I took of various ThinkPads and monitors. Low black points are better, high white points are brighter, and low Avg dE is better. Avg dE is a measure of color fidelity taken after each screen was profiled with Monaco OptixPro. The screens are listed below in rough order of quality of the screen, based on resolution, size, brightness, viewing angle, color fidelity, and black level.

T41p 14" 1400x1050
Black 0.64 cd/m2
White 91.88 cd/m2
Contrast ratio: 144:1
Avg dE: 5.11

T60p 14" 1400x1050
Black 1.09 cd/m2
White 135.25 cd/m2
Contrast ratio: 124:1
Avg dE: 4.14

R50p 15" Flexview 1600x1200
Black 0.18 cd/m2
White 84.4 cd/m2
Contrast ratio: 469:1
Avg dE: 3.40

Z61p 15.4" 1920x1200
Black 0.25 cd/m2
White 139.85 cd/m2
Contrast ratio: 559:1
Avg dE: 4.09

Z61m 15.4" 1680x1050
Black 0.26 cd/m2
White 158.45 cd/m2
Contrast ratio: 609:1
Avg dE: 4.7

T60 15.4" 1680x1050
Black 0.31 cd/m2
White 165.94 cd/m2
Contrast ratio: 535:1
Avg dE: 4.5

T42p 15" Flexview 1600x1200
Black 0.30 cd/m2
White 132.92 cd/m2
Contrast ratio: 443:1
Avg dE: 3.22

MacBook Pro 15.4" 1440x900
Black 0.44 cd/m2
White 237.51 cd/m2
Contrast ratio: 540:1
Avg dE: 4.09

T60 15" Flexview 1400x1050
Black 0.29 cd/m2
White 162.01 cd/m2
Contrast ratio: 558:1
Avg dE: 4.13

Viewsonic VP201b 20" IPS 1600x1200
Black 0.47 cd/m2
White 135 cd/m2
Contrast ratio: 287:1
Avg dE: 2.43

Viewsonic VP230mb 23" IPS 1600x1200
Black 0.40 cd/m2
White 152.59 cd/m2
Contrast ratio: 381:1
Avg dE: 3.09

Dell 2407WFP 24" 1920x1600
Black 0.38 cd/m2
White 388.97 cd/m2
Contrast ratio: 1024:1
Avg dE: 2.70

Dell 2707WFP 27" 1920x1600
Black 0.24 cd/m2
White 295.94 cd/m2
Contrast ratio: 1233:1
Avg dE: 2.88

allen · #3 Post by **allen** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:31 pm

wow, this is amazing, thanks.

widescreen T60 vs Flexview T60 size/dimensions/weight is something i'm definetly interested in, as far as i could tell from posted tech specs, the widescreen T60 was smaller volume wise and lighter, and thinner.

is the widescreen T60 about as thin as the 14" T60?

WPWoodJr · #4 Post by **WPWoodJr** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:04 pm

allen wrote:wow, this is amazing, thanks.

widescreen T60 vs Flexview T60 size/dimensions/weight is something i'm definetly interested in, as far as i could tell from posted tech specs, the widescreen T60 was smaller volume wise and lighter, and thinner.

is the widescreen T60 about as thin as the 14" T60?

You're welcome - I know how starved people are for information when they can't see these machines themselves so I thought I'd help out.

The widescreen T60 is a great machine. Its a bit thicker than the 14" T60 but not much. Its almost 2 inches wider though! Harder to fit in backpacks. But its screen is way better than the 14" T60.

Here's a little table I made for comparisons (my measurements, not including 9-cell battery sticking out the back):

T60p 14.1" 12.4 10 1.2 149
T60p 15" 12 7/8 10.5 1.4 189
T60p 15.4" 14.1 10 1.34 189

The last column is cubic inches. The 14.1" is about 1/2 pound lighter than the other two.

pianowizard · #5 Post by **pianowizard** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:21 pm

WPWoodJr wrote:Its almost 2 inches wider though!

So it might flex a little more, and people who have the bad habit of lifting laptops by one of the palm rest corners will damage this widescreen T60 very quickly!

#6 Post by **tomh009** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:50 pm

pianowizard wrote:So it might flex a little more, and people who have the bad habit of lifting laptops by one of the palm rest corners will damage this widescreen T60 very quickly!

That's a bad habit?

own6volvos · #7 Post by **own6volvos** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:12 pm

Suddenly I have this gigantic smile on my face waiting for my Flexview T60 to get out of customs

Have you guys ever had a chance to inpect and test the screens on the C100 or C200? They have to be more than twice as bright as the T60 flexviews I have seen, but are really lacking on the contrast. Would be fun to see exactly how much brighter these other screens were in comparison.

npish · #8 Post by **npish** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:38 pm

wow, WPWoodJr, this is one of the most useful threads I've encountered in my laptop research; screen quality is pretty much the most important factor in a laptop for me, so I've been leaning towards the 15" IPS/Flexview; HOWEVER, from your calculations--and it's ridiculously helpful to see these things quantified, btw--it seems that after profiling, the difference between the widescreen T60 and the 15" Flexview is not too dramatic--- do you find this to be the case? (b/c I *really* would like a widescreen machine [hence my overriding desire for a widescreen flexview, which does not look likely at this point]);

Also, with the Monaco package, the end result is an ICC file, which you then associate with the display adapter, correct? If this is the case, could you share your profile so that others get the same viewing result? (Or is it perhaps that every LCD varies a bit, even if it's the same part no/manufacturer, and thus must be profiled uniquely?)

Finally, please do let us all know which machine you choose! I'll be quite curious......

WPWoodJr · #9 Post by **WPWoodJr** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:15 am

own6volvos wrote:Suddenly I have this gigantic smile on my face waiting for my Flexview T60 to get out of customs

Have you guys ever had a chance to inpect and test the screens on the C100 or C200? They have to be more than twice as bright as the T60 flexviews I have seen, but are really lacking on the contrast. Would be fun to see exactly how much brighter these other screens were in comparison.

No, we are only interested in the Thinkpads. We may get some Dells in for eval - if so I'll post results on them too.

WPWoodJr · #10 Post by **WPWoodJr** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:27 am

npish wrote:wow, WPWoodJr, this is one of the most useful threads I've encountered in my laptop research; screen quality is pretty much the most important factor in a laptop for me, so I've been leaning towards the 15" IPS/Flexview; HOWEVER, from your calculations--and it's ridiculously helpful to see these things quantified, btw--it seems that after profiling, the difference between the widescreen T60 and the 15" Flexview is not too dramatic--- do you find this to be the case? (b/c I *really* would like a widescreen machine [hence my overriding desire for a widescreen flexview, which does not look likely at this point]);

Also, with the Monaco package, the end result is an ICC file, which you then associate with the display adapter, correct? If this is the case, could you share your profile so that others get the same viewing result? (Or is it perhaps that every LCD varies a bit, even if it's the same part no/manufacturer, and thus must be profiled uniquely?)

Finally, please do let us all know which machine you choose! I'll be quite curious......

The Flexview screen has greener greens, yellower yellows - its capable of more color range. But for many images the T60 widescreen is fine if you profile it (its way too blue if you don't). And the viewing angles aren't as great.

The 15" screen gives you bigger text, and taller portrait images because it is 9" tall while the widescreen 15.4" screen is 8 3/8" tall.

The Monaco software gives you an ICC file which characterizes the device and has video lookup tables in it. You load the video lookup tables with a program such as DisplayProfile or Monaco Gamma. Then, you must use software such as Photoshop or ACDSee Pro which understand color management and can apply the ICC file for the monitor when viewing inages.

A profile created for another screen but of the same make/model would be close and a lot better than no profile. But Monaco's terms don't let you give the profiles away.

BTW, I created the color profiles with Monaco's "table based 3D profile" option which creates a better profile.

dracore · #11 Post by **dracore** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:49 am

Thanks for the additional information!

Now it's even more of a reason for me to wait for an IPS version of the 15.4". Gosh I hope that it will be soon!

WPWoodJr · #12 Post by **WPWoodJr** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:56 am

dracore wrote:Thanks for the additional information!

Now it's even more of a reason for me to wait for an IPS version of the 15.4". Gosh I hope that it will be soon!

I'm not holding my breath for that one!

okay · #13 Post by **okay** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:08 am

[/quote]
I'm not holding my breath for that one![/quote]
Why is that?? I was also hoping for a widescreen IPS!

fbrdphreak · #14 Post by **fbrdphreak** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:36 am

pianowizard wrote:
WPWoodJr wrote:Its almost 2 inches wider though!
So it might flex a little more, and people who have the bad habit of lifting laptops by one of the palm rest corners will damage this widescreen T60 very quickly!

Flex should be a non-issue with the roll cage...Z61m doesn't flex and it is a fair bit heavier.

fbrdphreak · #15 Post by **fbrdphreak** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:37 am

okay wrote:Why is that?? I was also hoping for a widescreen IPS!

Last I heard the only IPS notebook display manufacturer went out of business, it is highly unlikely IPS displays will be showing up in notebooks again anytime soon. But the current 15.4" WSXGA+ panel used in ThinkPads is quite good, as stated above.

WPWoodJr · #16 Post by **WPWoodJr** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:18 am

fbrdphreak wrote:
okay wrote:Why is that?? I was also hoping for a widescreen IPS!
Last I heard the only IPS notebook display manufacturer went out of business, it is highly unlikely IPS displays will be showing up in notebooks again anytime soon. But the current 15.4" WSXGA+ panel used in ThinkPads is quite good, as stated above.

LG Philips makes the 15" IPS Flexview 1400x1050 display on the T60. I just don't know that we'll see a widescreen version any time soon.

Note from Moderator: Stop quoting the entire message in replies. If you don't trim your quotes, I'll do it for you, and you won't like the results.

perry_78 · #17 Post by **perry_78** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:00 am

The 14" T60 really is crap in comparison, but otherwise just fine for office work.

coz007 · #18 Post by **coz007** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:17 am

perry_78 wrote:The 14" T60 really is crap in comparison, but otherwise just fine for office work.

I know you state "in comparison" but I have one of these 14.1" things ordered. Is the screen at least comparable to a low level dell inspiron or something else in its class. I KNOW ITS NOT AS GOOD AS A FLEXVIEW. But compared to similar products out there like Dell or Compaq. Is it that bad?

perry_78 · #19 Post by **perry_78** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:44 am

It's better than a lot of other screens actually, it's not exactly a MBP, but it also depends on which manufacturer you get.

I'm rather content with the screen, I was expecting much worse. Compare it to a MBP or Flexview, and it stands no chance. Other than that, don't worry about it. The minor amount of light leakage there is you get used to.

allen · #20 Post by **allen** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:50 am

speaking of MBP, i'm curious to hear how their screens compare.

T60p 15"
T60 15.4" wide
MBP 15"
T60p 15" Flexview

i'm guessing that would be the order of increasing quality?
how close to you think it is between 'em though?

WPWoodJr · #21 Post by **WPWoodJr** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:30 am

What is MBP?

dracore · #22 Post by **dracore** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:18 pm

macbook pro

WPWoodJr wrote:What is MBP?

npish · #23 Post by **npish** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:37 am

WPWoodJr wrote:The Monaco software gives you an ICC file which characterizes the device and has video lookup tables in it. You load the video lookup tables with a program such as DisplayProfile or Monaco Gamma. Then, you must use software such as Photoshop or ACDSee Pro which understand color management and can apply the ICC file for the monitor when viewing inages.

just so I understand, you can also load the profile with Windows, correct? ie. associate the profile with the display adapter in the "Color Management" tab of the display properties, thus applying the profile at all times, not just when working within Photoshop, etc (?)

beeblebrox · #24 Post by **beeblebrox** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 3:19 pm

Unfortunately, the above given exact measurements of the screens are of not much value, but only give a hint about general features.

You never know, what kind of display you get in your notebook. The manufacturers have a larger variety of same-size-fit displays for a notebook series due to supplier reasons.
You can get a Samsung, IDTech, BOE, Quanta, Optronics, etc. display in your notebook and the results will vary greatly. You never know.

Just check above the 15" Flexviews, they vary too, there are so many IPS displays on the market with different quality classes. The variety in TN, SuperTN, Fringe, PVA, MVA and SIPS is enormous. And within a line you have very different quality grades (according to purchase price). I had a super display in a T23 (refurbished from IBM with a new display), that blew all T40 displays away.
I recently saw a colleagues Sharp notebook disassembled, which had a much better display than the quite good Samsung X20. So Sharp makes better displays than Samsung? We opened it up, and in both were Samsung displays.

If you want to get an idea then you might start with this technical overview:

http://axofiber.no-ip.org/inside/notebo ... panels.htm

Cheers

Kel Ghu · #25 Post by **Kel Ghu** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:52 pm

I was about to tell you guys the same things... for ex, IBM has 3 different LCD panel suppliers for its 14"1 T60: hydis, TMD and samsung. It means 3 differents level of quality. etc etc...

WPWoodJr · #26 Post by **WPWoodJr** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:49 pm

npish wrote:
WPWoodJr wrote:The Monaco software gives you an ICC file which characterizes the device and has video lookup tables in it. You load the video lookup tables with a program such as DisplayProfile or Monaco Gamma. Then, you must use software such as Photoshop or ACDSee Pro which understand color management and can apply the ICC file for the monitor when viewing inages.
just so I understand, you can also load the profile with Windows, correct? ie. associate the profile with the display adapter in the "Color Management" tab of the display properties, thus applying the profile at all times, not just when working within Photoshop, etc (?)

No, Windows color management really sucks. Associating the profile with the display adapter does precisely zip, nada, nothing, bupkus. Programs like Photoshop and Monaco Gamma may read that setting to determine which profile to use, that's it.

Note from Moderator: Stop quoting the entire message in replies. If you don't trim your quotes, I'll do it for you, and you won't like the results.

WPWoodJr · #27 Post by **WPWoodJr** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:05 pm

beeblebrox wrote:Unfortunately, the above given exact measurements of the screens are of not much value, but only give a hint about general features.

You never know, what kind of display you get in your notebook. The manufacturers have a larger variety of same-size-fit displays for a notebook series due to supplier reasons.
You can get a Samsung, IDTech, BOE, Quanta, Optronics, etc. display in your notebook and the results will vary greatly. You never know.

Just check above the 15" Flexviews, they vary too, there are so many IPS displays on the market with different quality classes. The variety in TN, SuperTN, Fringe, PVA, MVA and SIPS is enormous. And within a line you have very different quality grades (according to purchase price). I had a super display in a T23 (refurbished from IBM with a new display), that blew all T40 displays away.
I recently saw a colleagues Sharp notebook disassembled, which had a much better display than the quite good Samsung X20. So Sharp makes better displays than Samsung? We opened it up, and in both were Samsung displays.

If you want to get an idea then you might start with this technical overview:

http://axofiber.no-ip.org/inside/notebo ... panels.htm

Cheers

You're overstating the case. Check out this website, there is only one supplier (LG-Philips) for the Z60m/T60 1680x1050 and T60 Flexview 1400x1050. The T60 1400x1050 does have several suppliers as you suggest.

http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/TFT_display

Note from Moderator: Stop quoting the entire message in replies. If you don't trim your quotes, I'll do it for you, and you won't like the results.

WPWoodJr · #28 Post by **WPWoodJr** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:08 pm

Kel Ghu wrote:I was about to tell you guys the same things... for ex, IBM has 3 different LCD panel suppliers for its 14"1 T60: hydis, TMD and samsung. It means 3 differents level of quality. etc etc...

BOE-Hydis is bankrupt - that's why you can't get the T60p with 1600x1200 Flexview screen anymore.

pianowizard · #29 Post by **pianowizard** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 11:15 pm

tomh009 wrote:
pianowizard wrote:So it might flex a little more, and people who have the bad habit of lifting laptops by one of the palm rest corners will damage this widescreen T60 very quickly!
That's a bad habit?

Oh yeah, it's really bad to the motherboard.

fbrdphreak wrote:Flex should be a non-issue with the roll cage...Z61m doesn't flex and it is a fair bit heavier.

But isn't the T60 thinner?

beeblebrox · #30 Post by **beeblebrox** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 7:13 am

WPWoodJr wrote:
Kel Ghu wrote:I was about to tell you guys the same things... for ex, IBM has 3 different LCD panel suppliers for its 14"1 T60: hydis, TMD and samsung. It means 3 differents level of quality. etc etc...
BOE-Hydis is bankrupt - that's why you can't get the T60p with 1600x1200 Flexview screen anymore.

Nonsense, not bankrupt.

BOE (one of the largest LCD manufacturers of the world, based in China) bought Hydis (mainly for the patents), transferred a lot of work to BOE China and refused Hydis the money to continue in their niche market with specialized displays. The 15" UXGA IPS display is a very Niche product.
BTW, IPS displays are going the way of the past. They are not really up to date anymore, suck a lot of current due to their very high transistor account and low filter transparency. They still make sense for desktop displays, such as the Apple Cinema Display, but for notebooks they are heavy and suck the battery like dracula on a virgin's neck.

Note from Moderator: Stop quoting the entire message in replies. If you don't trim your quotes, I'll do it for you, and you won't like the results.

Laptops galore - 5 Thinkpads in for evaluation

Laptops galore - 5 Thinkpads in for evaluation

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