Any (official) statements from Lenovo regarding IPS panels ?

[Puppy]

Is there any official statement from Lenovo regarding future of ThinkPad T series ? It seems as they have big problem with IPS display panels manufacturer (discussed here). If they were going to replace it with crappy TN panels the value of ThinkPad notebooks would have dropped down dramatically

[z_24]

Anyone with info on Flexview with the widescreen?
I'm currently waiting for it to come out, if ever.

[Puppy]

It is probably no longer an issue since LG panels with "sparkle/grainy" surface makes even the T series useless for basic tasks like reading black text on white background

Are there any other notebooks ?

[K. Eng]

Can anyone elaborate on the grainy/sparkly surface? I've seen this complaint on business class notebooks of recent manufacture, but I've never heard it in connection with the T series ThinkPad.

I hope IPS panels continue to be manufactured. They are really spectacular in color reproduction and viewing angle.

[dr_st]

Anyone with info on Flexview with the widescreen?
I'm currently waiting for it to come out, if ever.

I have yet to see _ANY_ widescreen notebook panel that was IPS. And it doesn't seem like it's going to improve, because the trend now is to push IPS out of everything. Basically, even on standalone LCD monitors its virtually nonexistent below 20". Unless someone finds a significantly cheaper way to manufacture IPS panels, it looks like they are going to be extinct.

It is probably no longer an issue since LG panels with "sparkle/grainy" surface makes even the T series useless for basic tasks like reading black text on white background

Aren't you being too hasty here? If all SXGA+ T series equipped with LG panels were that terrible, Lenovo would be out of business by now. Most people who look at my notebook with the LG panel tell me that it's the best screen they've ever seen.

Can anyone elaborate on the grainy/sparkly surface? I've seen this complaint on business class notebooks of recent manufacture, but I've never heard it in connection with the T series ThinkPad.

The latest discussion is here and it's not the first time it's been brought up, but I think it's being blown way out of proportion.

I hope IPS panels continue to be manufactured. They are really spectacular in color reproduction and viewing angle.

Can't compete with them. If they are made a bit faster, they will be hands down the best, but even now, a 16ms/8msGTG IPS panel should be fast enough for all but the very extreme tasks. It's all about $$$.

[Puppy]

Aren't you being too hasty here? If all SXGA+ T series equipped with LG panels were that terrible, Lenovo would be out of business by now. Most people who look at my notebook with the LG panel tell me that it's the best screen they've ever seen.

Well, you are right that I bit overdid it but ...

My scepticism is based on experience from "new technologies" in the past. I can not agree that Lenovo would be of business because people accepts nearly everything There are many examples that the overall quality of a new technology did not bring any improvement (35 mm film -> DVD, HiFi -> computer audio, CD Audio -> MP3, PAL -> DVB-T, CRT -> LCD TN panels ... etc). In many cases the quality was horrible but still accepted by most of the people.

Speaking of notebook displays, it is going worse every year regardless of what brand it is. I have seen latest Dell or HP displays and I couldn't believe anyone can actually buy and use such product. ThinkPad's IPS panels were the only exception because they deliver superior and persistent quality. You could be sure that any T series model with IPS panel will be perfect. Unfortunately recent complaints about LG panels (which are known having this issue) makes me worried about the quality (everyone is trying to save on the quality) because I'm sure most of people wouldn't notice it anyway. I'm still trying to find someone with T60 to check the display myself.

[dr_st]

My scepticism is based on experience from "new technologies" in the past. I can not agree that Lenovo would be of business because people accepts nearly everything

In a way, yes. But no one would accept being unable to read black text on white background.

There are many examples that the overall quality of a new technology did not bring any improvement (35 mm film -> DVD, HiFi -> computer audio, CD Audio -> MP3, PAL -> DVB-T, CRT -> LCD TN panels ... etc). In many cases the quality was horrible but still accepted by most of the people.

Well, often you have to lose on something to gain on something else. MP3 allowed audio data to be 10 times as compressed as CD Audio, which is critical for storage and transfer rates, with only a minor loss in quality. LCD panels, although suffered from very noticeable setbacks, still saved lots of desk space and electricity, and for many people who just do word processing with their face stuck at the screen at 90 degrees the terrible angle effects and ghosting were and still are a non-issue. But no one would accept being unable to read black text on white background...

Speaking of notebook displays, it is going worse every year regardless of what brand it is. I have seen latest Dell or HP displays and I couldn't believe anyone can actually buy and use such product.

Glossy is the trend today, so manufacturers just put glossy coating on horrible TN panels and market is as "TrueLife", "VibrantColor", "BestPic", or God knows what. And people buy, because the first impression is "wow". And why bother with putting worthy notebook displays, it's not like you can just buy a new display for a notebook, so manufacturers don't feel threatened. I agree with you, it's sad.

ThinkPad's IPS panels were the only exception because they deliver superior and persistent quality. You could be sure that any T series model with IPS panel will be perfect. Unfortunately recent complaints about LG panels (which are known having this issue) makes me worried about the quality (everyone is trying to save on the quality) because I'm sure most of people wouldn't notice it anyway. I'm still trying to find someone with T60 to check the display myself.

Look up old threads on Flexview in this forums and you see that complaints about it existed all the time, before LG panels were used. Different complaints, but still, it's not perfect. LG panels are just fine - it's not a step down in quality.

[Puppy]

But no one would accept being unable to read black text on white background.

There's difference between unable and "your eyes hurts after 12 hours of reading with reasonable breaks" but I consider the latter as unable as well. Currently I don't have any problems with it (having the IDTech panel). I've seen those sparkle displays (although not the LG yet) and I must agree I'm unable to use it for a long-term work. It makes much more stress to keep the focus on the text while the background is changing with every little move of your head. I just hope the issue is not that visible on the LG panel but it made me worried.

[dr_st]

It makes much more stress to keep the focus on the text while the background is changing with every little move of your head. I just hope the issue is not that visible on the LG panel but it made me worried.

On my panel it's not visible at all, and I can spend hours reading text on it. It's easier on my eyes than my CRT.

[beeblebrox]

But no one would accept being unable to read black text on white background.

There's difference between unable and "your eyes hurts after 12 hours of reading with reasonable breaks" but I consider the latter as unable as well. Currently I don't have any problems with it (having the IDTech panel). I've seen those sparkle displays (although not the LG yet) and I must agree I'm unable to use it for a long-term work. It makes much more stress to keep the focus on the text while the background is changing with every little move of your head. I just hope the issue is not that visible on the LG panel but it made me worried.

I completely agree. Yesterday I checked the new Apple 20" Cinema display for potential purchase. That thing, being an S-IPS Display drove me crazy. Sparkling all over, making me dizzy after 20 minutes.
I strongly prefer PVA or S-PVA displays, like in my current Samsung monitor. They blow IPS displays away in every way. I guess IPS will be history in a few years, they are heavy and thick, have too many polarisation layers and far too many transistors.

[dr_st]

I strongly prefer PVA or S-PVA displays, like in my current Samsung monitor. They blow IPS displays away in every way. I guess IPS will be history in a few years, they are heavy and thick, have too many polarisation layers and far too many transistors.

No other LCD technology on the market today gives picture quality like IPS. PVA and S-PVA is crap compared to IPS. Their viewing angles aren't as good, i.e. the images distorts (IPS remains perfect), and the response time on VA is horrible (Overdrive solves this for the most part, but introduces other problems). IPS really is superior to any other LCD technology today. The sparkling effect of some individual units or models doesn't change this.

[Puppy]

Any news regarding this issue ? Actually the best would be to see a comment to this on lenovoblogs

[Troels]

And i'd really like to know the story about IDtech - what is left and what isn't and why everything went as it went and their displays are nowhere to be found in new products now....

Oh, and for the record:
I hate desktop LCDs, and here i am talking about the mainstream kind. Even at their lowest light setting they are blinding. The vivid cartoon calibrated colors makes it unsuitable for normal work, and i need to recalibrate with every new monitor. If you do a lot of field work, this gets tiresome. Also, everything seems to be focused at costs and response times these days, so it's nearly impossible to have special demands, if it can even be called that.

The flexview is at least til now the best display i have ever used. Yes it's response time is high, but the colors are natural and non offending and backlighting level is just perfect.

[Puppy]

I hate desktop LCDs, and here i am talking about the mainstream kind. Even at their lowest light setting they are blinding.

This is acutally sign of cheap LCD monitors only which are usually overbrighted. I got 20" NEC 2090UXi (A-TW-IPS panel made by LG/Philips). It has very good brightness settings allowing to set low brightness without color distortion.

[tomh009]

This is acutally sign of cheap LCD monitors only which are usually overbrighted. I got 20" NEC 2090UXi (A-TW-IPS panel made by LG/Philips). It has very good brightness settings allowing to set low brightness without color distortion.

Agreed. And the Dell 2001FP is another good choice, though only available used now. Use the link below to locate S-IPS desktop monitors:

http://aryarya.net/wassyoi/lcdmemo.html

[Puppy]

It seems as I found the answer here: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=38898

today i spoke with several salespeople at lenovo. they uniformly confirmed that lenovo will be discontinuing all 4:3 screens. they claimed that this was a reaction to the marketplace, implying that it was becoming more difficult to obtain 4:3 panels. furthermore, there are no ips widescreens on the drawing board. therefore, it looks like flexview is being completely phased out

Good bye Lenovo .... I can buy cheap Asus instead

[Troels]

This is acutally sign of cheap LCD monitors only which are usually overbrighted. I got 20" NEC 2090UXi (A-TW-IPS panel made by LG/Philips). It has very good brightness settings allowing to set low brightness without color distortion.

Aha, I guess i need to go more by reviews, because what they have in shops here on display is the run-of-the-mill cheap 19" WS, and a few 20" WS too... I don't blame them, because they can't sell expensive stuff because people think a 20" WS is a 20" WS.

Trust me, you don't want an Asus. I have only ever seen ONE select model with a 4:3 IPS screen, and it was sheer luck to get one. A fellow here bought the exact same model, but it came with a TN panel which was glaring, couldn't display yellow colors and had uneven backlighting. But i guess it's more or less what is out there.

Yes, i'm pretty dissatisfied with Lenovo's descission too, but what other choice to they have? Not having to do with IDtech they can't do anything... IPS is ancient but impressive technology. But since it is expensive to produce, and S-IPS, etc. has taken over - Lenovo is not going to find anyone willing to produce it.

[Puppy]

A fellow here bought the exact same model, but it came with a TN panel which was glaring, couldn't display yellow colors and had uneven backlighting. But i guess it's more or less what is out there.

Have you ever seen 14" SXGA+ ThinkPad display ? It is simply horrible.

Lenovo is not going to find anyone willing to produce it.

I don't believe it is not possible to find another producer. I bet the price of new T series remains the same while they save on display quality. My R51 (last R model with FlexView) was for 2000 EUR while new R60 with better configuration (but no FlexView) is for 1300 EUR.

Actually MacBook Pro is supposed to have decent IPS display. Is it way to go ?

[seeplus]

MacBook Pros have a PVA display; a nice (and bright) screen if the resolution is a good fit for your needs (it's a short-screen, not a wide-screen at 900 pixels high..)

I guess IPS will be history in a few years, they are heavy and thick, have too many polarisation layers and far too many transistors.

I think IPS panels will persist, though not likely in notebooks with the advent of faster and cheaper PVA. S-IPA and SA-IPS reproduce color more accurately than other LCD technologies, so look for higher-end stand alone monitors if you want the tech.

Regarding this poll; I consider Flexview one of my favorite features of my T60p, but will continue to buy thinkpads without them if the quality remains steady (this notebook is, without a doubt, the toughest I've owned.)

[Dimitri_P]

I just got 30" and 23" Apple cinema displays (2nd gen), and I have both T60p 15" and 14" (have Minidock).

Anybody wants me to run tests, take some pictures, etc - to see the picture quality difference?

I have a tripod with Rebel XTi, so I can guarantee picture quality.

Also if you want to send me particular jpg or bmp picture files as test reference, and exact settings for the camera, I'm eager to do that.

[gator]

Dmitri, I just want to drool at the apple displays. If you have time, please do post some pics !!

[Dimitri_P]

Dmitri, I just want to drool at the apple displays. If you have time, please do post some pics !!

30" was shipped away today, but I still have 23"

Will do some pictures as soon as I have time