T42 I/O devices not recognized

[Eddie]

My Sister bought a T42 on eBay ... it booted up, everything seemed fine. But she didn't actually use it for a couple months, and when she finally got around to setting it up, (customizing settings, etc.) she then found she couldn't get her network to work. So she called me, and I soon discovered (coaching her over the phone) that her USB & PCMCIA were also broken.

Well you can forget about returning an item to an eBay seller after two months, and Lenovo said they wouldn't warrent it because she wasn't the original owner. So of course, she calls her brother; "Eddie can fix anything!"

I'd worked on T2x series before, but this was my first go at a T42, so I wasn't familiar with the insides ... perhaps there was a daughter board that controlled the I/O, which might be bad ... So I downloaded the maintenance manual and learned that only the modem is on a daughter board (at least that's what the book says). So it sounds like the System board ... (right?)

So true to form, Sis goes (where else?) to eBay to get a used replacement body (for an additional $200!). It arrived a couple days ago, and when I swapped-in the part, voilà? - Opps! Same symptoms as before! Now I'm starting to think that maybe it was software all along (!?) Of course networking is broken, so I can't go online to download new drivers ... so I went to another computer to download PC Doctor and the latest network drivers from from Lenovo; naturally there's no floppy, and the thumb drive doesn't work, so I burned them to CD ...

According to PC Doctor the USB, Network, Modem, and Video are all errored (even though the display works just fine). Device Manager shows these devices with a yellow Question mark, and when I tried reinstalling the network driver with the new one I'd just downloaded, it said it was the wrong driver and refused to install it.

I also tried booting the recovery partition to initialize a good configuration that way; I followed the directions on the Lenovo site, but the bootstrap doesn't respond to F11. (Another problem?) and of course, there are no recovery CDs. Oh, and before you ask; Yes, the devices are enabled in the BIOS, and the BIOS is recent, Dated June 2006.

Is it a bad system board again? Is it credible that two system boards are both bad in exactly the same way? Is this perhaps a common problem? Has anyone seen this before?

-E

[GomJabbar]

If you have the IBM software on it, try burning a Rescue Media CD. Start > All Programs > Access IBM > Create Rescue Media. Or if you have a newer version of Rescue and Recovery, Start > All Programs > ThinkVantage > Create Recovery Media.

Boot off of the above CD and try to make an ethernet network connection. If you can, then I believe have a software problem.

[Eddie]

No Can Do:

Under (Start->Programs->Access IBM) All I have is "Thinkpad configuration" - "Create Rescue Media" isn't listed.

Also, when I start Thinkpad Configuration, it lists the network and modem under the "Drivers Not Installed" button; No mention of the USB though - I guess its not programmed to check that, since the USB is never supposed to be in that state.

Anyway, from the Drivers Not Installed window, the button to install the drivers is greyed out (is this another clue?).

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

One thing I tried, was re-installing XP from a standard XP-Pro CD from Microsoft, using the CD Key from the bottom of the T42 (or at least its what I would have done if I had gotten that far). So as not to destroy what I had, I removed the original harddrive, and put in one that I had salvaged from an old laptop. I then booted the install kit, which ran normally until it got to the point where it was supposed to reboot from the harddrive; then it hung. The drive simply wasn't bootable ... Is this normal?

I have since replaced the original harddrive, and I'm back to square one.

Does anybody have .iso files I can download to burn myself a proper recovery CD set?

-E

[GomJabbar]

You said you used PC-Doctor. Was that PC-Doctor for Windows that you used while booted into Windows? If so, download and burn a CD of PC-Doctor for DOS and boot up from it. Run the diagnostics from the CD. If you still show the hardware errors, and the hardware is enabled in the BIOS, then you do have a hardware problem.

PC Doctor for DOS bootable CD - ThinkPad General

[Eddie]

Good tip -

You're right, I was using the Windows PC Doctor ...

So I burned a bootable DOS PC Doctor CD, and according to that, everything passes. (??) How reliable is this? Does it mean absolutely that the hardware is all good? I'm running out of time to return the 2nd system board if its faulty. So I need to know for sure whether it is or not.

Obvously, the next step either way, is to reload the software from scratch, so.......

Does anybody have .iso files I can download to burn a set of recovery CDs?

Alternatively, does anybody know how I can get a standard M$ XP CD load to work? Do I need special drivers?

-E

[GomJabbar]

You should be able to install Windows with a Windows install CD. You can add the drivers later.

Here is where you get the drivers from.
Software and Device Drivers - ThinkPad T42, T42p

EDIT: First, if you press the blue Access IBM button at the beginning of the boot sequence it should take you to Rescue and Recovery. If this works, choose to restore Factory Contents.

[Eddie]

If you re-read the bottom half of my 2nd entry above (3rd post in sequence) you'll see that I have already tried to reload from a standard XP-Pro Install CD but at the point of the first reboot after the initial phase, the install would hang trying to read the harddrive; I believe it requires special disk drivers that you can't download anywhere.

I had a similar problem with T2x series machines. I once tried putting the harddrive from an old T21, into a refurb T23 chassis; It wouldn't boot... kept giving me a STOP error that it couldn't read the harddrive. When I tried reloading from a standard Win2K install kit, I had the same symptom I'm getting now; Installation would not complete, hanging on the reboot. I never solved this problem; In the end, I gave up, and replaced the original harddrive with its preloaded OS, and everything worked.

Regarding the blue button ... It brings me to an option menu with three options (esc for normal boot, F1 for BIOS Setup, and F12 for boot device menu) No option for Recovery. I also tried F11 as it recommends on the Lenovo site, but it just takes me to the same 3-option menu.

I also tried tinkering with boot.ini; There's no XP on the 2nd partition, so I tried booting to DOS from D:\, but it just reboots again and comes back to the boot.ini menu. So I tried booting to DOS from C:\, this seems as though it tries to do something, but then it halts saying that it can't find the file "C:\i386\$OEM$\install.ins" ...

Is there another way to get to Rescue & Recovery?

[GomJabbar]

Where did this hard drive come from - a working T42, or something else? Generally speaking, a hard drive has to be partitioned in the computer in which the OS is installed, otherwise you can run into a geometry error.

Hard disk geometry thread

[Eddie]

My understanding is that the geometry issue is a funtion of the harddrive, not the machine its in. I have been juggling formatted harddrives between machines for 20 years and never ran into a geometry problem.

Also, when I boot from CD, the drive is completely usable. The problem only shows up when trying to boot from it. Note too, that in my past experience with the T23, reformatting did not help.

I was trying to avoid loading a new OS over the old one on the original drive, just because I don't want to start going backwards ... but if that's what it takes to eliminate doubt, I guess its the next step. Gimme a couple hours ...

------------------------------------------------------------------
PS - The problem in the thread you sent me is that the person was cloning the the image of one harddrive onto a harddrive of a different geometry. No, you can't do that! Each drive must be formatted and partitioned unto itself; but what machine, or even for that matter, what operating system you use to format the drive shouldn't matter.

[GomJabbar]

My understanding is that the geometry issue is a funtion of the harddrive, not the machine its in.

Note too, that in my past experience with the T23, reformatting did not help.
------------------------------------------------------------------
PS - The problem in the thread you sent me is that the person was cloning the the image of one harddrive onto a harddrive of a different geometry. No, you can't do that! Each drive must be formatted and partitioned unto itself; but what machine, or even for that matter, what operating system you use to format the drive shouldn't matter.

I beg to differ.
First:

Note this idiosyncracy is dependent on the bios, not the HDD itself.

Second:
Formatting is not the problem, partitioning is.
EDIT: Partitioning is the primary problem at least. I am not sure how a hard drive would act that was partitioned in one machine and formatted in another.

Third:
You can clone to any hard drive of sufficient capacity. The machine the target hard drive is in is the significant factor. The target hard drive needs to be in the computer it will be booted from when the process is finished.
EDIT: I am not discussing differences and incompatibilities between SATA and PATA in this thread.

Fourth:
If the BIOS's in two different laptops or computers read a hard drive the same way, with the same geometry, then yes you could swap hard drives without this being a problem. Hardware drivers could possibly be a problem, but you should be able to boot into SAFE MODE at least.

[bill bolton]

Does anybody have .iso files I can download to burn myself a proper recovery CD set?

The quickest method is usually to just buy a set from Lenovo.

Cheers,

Bill

[Eddie]

Regarding Geometry:
It goes against everything I know about the technology, and I've been involved with it since its conception; The geometry is supposed to be described in the MBR, along with the partition information, and the BIOS is supposed to use that information exactly. I have never (at least never before) encountered a BIOS that didn't conform to this industry standard. That said, something nonstandard must be saved in the MBR, because using the original disk DID matter.

Using the original disk, I was able to get past the install hang at reboot ... only to hit a new snag; it wouldn't accept the CD key from the hologram sticker on the bottom of the case. To get past the obstacle I tried the key that came with the CD to see if it would work, and it did; but this is problem because long term, the license I use needs to be the one that came with the laptop.

Anyway, when I finally got through the install, the new system suffered from the same problem as the preloaded system. Device Manager showed the same devices unknown, and when I tried installing the Ethernet controller I downloaded from Lenovo, it wouldn't load. Also, Lenovo offers no downloadable driver for the USB because its supposed to use the standard XP included driver. So how come the driver from a completely independent source CD also doesn’t work?

This leaves me full circle; Is it hardware or software?

[GomJabbar]

Sometimes hardware problems do not show up in diagnostics. I experienced this on a ThinkPad 600E. One of the PC Card slots stopped working. Both the diagnostics in the BIOS, and Windows Device Manager showed the PC Card slots operating normally. I was able to use the bottom slot, but not the top one. When I first got the 600E, both slots worked. A fresh install of Windows made no difference in this case.

Three questions.
1) Do you have the latest BIOS version installed?
2) Did you install the Intel Chipset Drivers?
3) When you downloaded the Ethernet Controller, did you install from C:\DRIVERS\WIN\Ethernet\PRO1000\WS03XP32 ? See below.

CLEAN INSTALL: (Ethernet Controller in Other devices)
Windows XP detected the "Ethernet Controller", but was not able to find the correct
device driver. In this case, you will see "Ethernet Controller" in "Other devices"
in "Device Manager". To install the driver, follow the instructions below.

1. Extract this package onto your hard drive.
2. Start Windows XP.
3. Click "Start" and "Control Panel".
4. Click "Performance and Maintenance" and "System" icon.
5. Click "Hardware" tab.
6. Click "Device Manager" button.
7. Right-click "Ethernet Controller" in "Other devices" and click "Properties".
8. Click "Driver" tab.
9. Click "Update Driver..." button.
10. Select "Install from a list or specific location (Advanced)"
11. Click "Next >" button in "Hardware Upgrade Wizard" dialog box.
12. Select "Search for the best driver in these locations." and
"Include this location in the search:" only.
13. Specify the path to one of the following sub-directories with the full path name
where you extracted the package in step 1 in "Include this location in the search:".
"PRO100\WS03XP32" (for "Intel(R) PRO/100 VE Network Connection")
"PRO1000\WS03XP32" (for "Intel(R) PRO/1000 MT Mobile Connection")
14. Click "Next >" button.
The driver installation starts.
15. Click "Finish" button when the installation completes.
16. Click "Close" button.

[christopher_wolf]

Ehhh? The HDD geometry is described by the MBR, period. I don't know why anybody could logically think it is different. The BIOS does a translation of what is in the MBR and goes off of that.

If you devices don't work with the OEM, or even similar, drivers, then the problem is getting closer to being hardware related. The USB driver has been known to be a sticking point.

[GomJabbar]

When LBA is turned on, the BIOS will enable geometry translation. This translation may be done in the same way that it is done in Extended CHS or large mode, or it may be done using a different algorithm called LBA-assist translation. The translated geometry is still what is presented to the operating system for use in Int 13h calls. The difference between LBA and ECHS is that when using ECHS the BIOS translates the parameters used by these calls from the translated geometry to the drive's logical geometry. With LBA, it translates from the translated geometry directly into a logical block (sector) number.

Logical Block Addressing (LBA)

It is important to recognize that even though both enhanced CHS and LBA modes involve the use of translated geometry, this does not mean that it is guaranteed that they will work the same way. In particular, LBA translation may result in a different set of geometries than ECHS translation. Similarly, different BIOSes can in theory use different means of translating. Moving a hard disk that was formatted on one PCusually work OK, but sometimes may not. The chances of a problem increase as the difference in age between the two systems to another will increases.

Caveats on Changing Translation Modes and Transferring Hard Disks Between PCs

I've highlighted the problem area. The cause is the way the computer's bios autodetects the hard disk parameters. When any computer boots, one of the first things it does is query the controller firmware on the HDD to find out the disk size and parameters. Put that HDD in an IBM (or, it seems, a HP/Compaq) laptop and it will report back cylinders/heads/sectors configuration of 5168/240/63. But put that same HDD in a Dell or Toshiba laptop and it will report back cyl/hd/sec = 4863/255/63. Note these are fictitious numbers anyway (and have been since we got beyond 528MB disks and started using LBA a decade ago), but it has serious ramifications in the way the partitions and partition table are consequently structured. When you write your partitions and file systems using one geometry, it will not work if you try to read them using a different geometry.

Note this idiosyncracy is dependent on the bios, not the HDD itself. Any autodetected HDD will always show 240 heads in a Thinkpad, and always show 255 heads in a Dell. Since all that really matters is the disk size, you'll notice the cylinder count is adjusted to provide the same disk sizes under either bios, given the head count, sector count (always 63), and sector size (always 512 bytes).

Re: Mysterious Problem, cloning laptops

So in other words, when fdisk is used, the translated geometry is what it sees as far as where to write. Move that drive to different computer and it is possible that the partition information will be accessed or seen in a different way. The heads and cylinders no longer correspond. The translation goes awry.

[christopher_wolf]

So in other words, when fdisk is used, the translated geometry is what it sees as far as where to write. Move that drive to different computer and it is possible that the partition information will be accessed or seen in a different way. The heads and cylinders no longer correspond. The translation goes awry.

The translation is done by the BIOS, but that doesn't mean that stuff can disappear and that is why the original MBR matter for *precisely* that reason. The logical geometry of the HDD still doesn't change as pointed out earlier. That is the *translation* and not the logical geometry (it gets confusing when not specified). As pointed out previously, Eddie suspected that there was something in the way that either the MBR was read or with the MBR itself.

[bill bolton]

Using the original disk, I was able to get past the install hang at reboot ... only to hit a new snag; it wouldn't accept the CD key from the hologram sticker on the bottom of the case. To get past the obstacle I tried the key that came with the CD to see if it would work, and it did; but this is problem because long term, the license I use needs to be the one that came with the laptop.

The image on the recovery disk has the IBM/Levono Volume Licence key on it. This is the same (or at least from the same VLK set) as what was originally installed on your T4x in the factory.

The COA on the bottom has an OEM key on it, which is simply for the purposes of accounting for the COA with Microsoft. The key on the label will only work with an OEM Key install version of XP, so that is why it does not work with the Volume Licence Key on the recovery disks, or your Retail Key install disks.

Under Microsoft's volume licencing conditions, you don't need the key in the installed version to agree with the one laptop COA, as long as the Windows XP version installed on the laptop has a Volume Licence Key licenced to the same vendor as the OEM key on the COA.

As far as your device driver load problems are concerned, have you definitively checked that the devices are enabled in the BIOS?

Cheers,

Bill

[Eddie]

Okay, well we've gone pretty far afield, and I'd like to get back on point.

(1) Bill:
Yes, absolutely, I have checked that the devices are enabled in the BIOS. It was one of the first things I checked and have double checked twice after contributors in this thread have questioned it.

(2) Conflicts are:

=> Devices do not work in two separate installs of Windows-XP, and also show bad in Windows version of PC Doctor; but the DOS version of PC Doctor says its all okay. Can I trust the DOS version to be more accurate, or less accurate? More, I think, because its not confused by whatever might be awry in Windows. On the other hand, perhaps the DOS utilities don't test everything ... perhaps there is something that doesn't work, that Windows needs, that the diagnostics aren't checking.

=> Two separate system boards are exhibiting the same symptom. The only things common, are the CPU, the Modem Daughter Card, and the Software. I Don't believe its the CPU, because a Dead CPU wouldn't run at all, and its only the I/O of certain devices I'm having trouble with. So unless the Modem Daughter Card can screw up the USB & Network (CAN IT?) I'm left with either the software, or the tremendous coincidence that the replacement board has the identical problem as the original. Granted, neither of the pieces are new (the Laptop was bought used, and the replacement board is salvage ... both bought on eBay). Is it possible that this dubious pedigree could be a source of problems? Sure. But what's the likelihood that both have exactly the same problem? Well, if it was a very common problem, then maybe. And I guess that's the reason I posted this tread in the first place. Does anybody know if these symptoms correspond to a known common problem with this model?

(3) Why isn't it letting me install the drivers?
Have you ever built a desktop PC from scratch, from new parts? Every motherboard comes with a Driver CD for the mobo integrated peripherals. When you first install Windows, it doesn't recognize these peripherals ... EXACTLY LIKE THE SYMPTOM I AM EXPERIENCING WITH THIS LAPTOP! Then you run the install kit from the CD and like magic, everything suddenly works perfectly. Its like I'm missing the MoBo CD. So I go to the Lenovo site and download all the drivers. Then I hit at a wall; the drivers won't load. I go through the process exactly as GomJabbar outlined a few posts back, and when it gets to what would have been step-15 (see above) instead of giving me "installation complete" it displays:

Cannot Install This Hardware
The hardware was not installed because the wizard cannot find the necessary software.

I assume its giving this message, because something its reading from the hardware doesn't matchup with the driver from Lenovo. And yes, I downloaded the driver a second time to make sure its not just a corrupted download. This suggests the device isn't identifying itself correctly ... thus hardware ... Again, two boards?

[GomJabbar]

When you run PC Doctor for DOS on the CD, doesn't it identify all the hardware for you? Maybe you could verify that the hardware is what you think it is or what you were told it was. It has been reported several times that when some of the T4x models when in for motherboard replacement, they came back with a different model motherboard. I verified awhile back that the Hardware Maintenance Manual and System Service Parts page did not agree on the FRU number for a specific type of motherboard. There is a couple of threads on this forum from a few months back on this.

Granted, the fact that the hardware is different than you think or were told does seem a little far-fetched. Most likely your hardware is damaged.

Bill Bolton's suggestion above about getting the Product Recovery Disc set from Lenovo is not a bad idea. I believe the retail price is around $45. Of course if you have damaged hardware, they will not help you with that, but if it's a driver issue, the Product Recovery Discs should make it work.

AFAIK, you never said if you installed the Intel Chipset drivers. They may be necessary for all the hardware to function properly.

[Eddie]

Not solved, but ...

My apology GomJabbar; You mentioned the chipset drivers earlier, and I kinda skipped over it … My wife says I’ve been loosing my edge since I’ve retired, and I guess so, ‘cause it should have been the first thing I checked. In my defense though, I was looking elsewhere, since the problem existed with the original preloaded system, which would have to already have the chipset drivers in place, as distributed by IBM.

However, it is also the first thing I should have loaded when I reinstalled the system from my retail CD; And even as I was writing my previous post (where I described that the symptom was like what you see before installing a motherboard CD) it triggered in my mind that I hadn’t done it. So I did.

Well it didn’t solve all the problems, but it did get the USB working and that bothered me, because it was proof that at least that part of my problem wasn’t hardware; And if it wasn’t, then why didn’t the preloaded system, which did have (must have had) the chipset drivers, work? Fortunately, I had backed-up the original system before reinstalling the OS, so I rolled back, and tried installing the chipset drivers on the original load. Bang! The original load could now access the USB! This made me very suspicious, so I pulled the license key from the registry, and what do you know? It had no resemblance to the key printed on the hologram tag on the case.

The guy who sold the laptop must have wiped the system before selling it, by reloading the OS … only he didn’t use an IBM CD. He probably ran into the same problem I did getting the reinstall to accept the IBM license key, so he used his own key (I’m guessing, but the proof is that he didn't use the IBM key!). The point is, that the install is obviously missing some important stuff, normally included as part of the IBM customized edition, but not part of a standard retail XP CD; and that's why I'm having this trouble.

Okay, so its not absolutely proven; it could be that I have a hardware problem in addition to the wrong OS; but at this point, I’m 99% sure its not hardware. What I need to do now, is reinstall the OS from a proper IBM/Lenovo source. I have the recovery partition, and I believe I could get a good reload out of it if I could only activate recovery. But that’s part of what’s missing (it all makes so much sense now).

I tried downloading a "Recovery CD" from the Lenovo site, which is supposed to re-enable the F11 option if its broken, but it didn’t work. The utility is a fix MBR tool, and when I ran it, it told me the MBR was NOT IBM standard (Surprise!). I fixed it, but still no F11 support, so I still cannot activate recovery.

Anyone know some IBM Voodoo to backdoor into recovery?

[GomJabbar]

Anyone know some IBM Voodoo to backdoor into recovery?

The Product Recovery Disc set (about 7 CD's or 1 CD and 1 DVD) includes the Windows XP OS as well as other commercial software; so I do not think you will find it for free anywhere online - even from IBM or Lenovo. Realize that the purpose of the service partition is to recovery all the factory software, including Windows XP. Buy it as Bill Bolton suggested or try and get a copy from a friend.

EDIT: In fact, the software on the ThinkPad will only let you burn one copy of the Product Recovery Disc set. If you do a restore to Factory Contents, you get this option again. Otherwise, the software will not let you make another copy.

[Eddie]

I’m not trying to steal something I’m not entitled to … The partition is already on my machine, and recovery wouldn’t work anyway, even if one could activate it, if you don’t have the right hardware; it checks!

What I have here, is a legitimate system with a corrupt load. How’s that any different than if it had been corrupted by a virus? I mean, what’s the point of having a recovery capability, that only works when the system IS NOT corrupted?

[GomJabbar]

I wasn't trying to imply that you were attempting to steal anything. I guess I thought you did not have a recovery partition with the necessary data in it. The only thing I can think of to try would be to install Rescue and Recovery, and see if that will repair the needed parts of the Recovery Partition.

Rescue and Recovery v3.1 by Lenovo

[Melvyn]

My ThinkPad T42 came fron second hand. It have some issue similar to yours.

Original layour includes at least 2 partitions. The last partition in hard drive will be always the boot partition. If you only have one, will be that.

If you resize your hardrive or watever, by default, your system will try to boot from the last partition. If you don't have an OS there you're in trouble. In that case you must find the way to modify the boot.ini file. Another files there are ntldr, config.sys, io.sys and ntdetect.com

Windows command prompt don't modify that setting. fixboot, fixmbr and so on don't work.

That setting (the boot partition) is only modified by the tools provided by IBM.

Anyways, if you have the windows working, then obviously try installing the respective drivers (go to device matrix and download them, and go to cd).

If you need a new windows, then start installation in the same partition that is installed the old windows, using the same windows directory (c:\windows or c:\winnt), everything the same. THIS WILL ERASE YOUR ACTUAL WINDOWS.

If you try to install a second windows, then you must edit the boot files manually.

[christopher_wolf]

I’m not trying to steal something I’m not entitled to … The partition is already on my machine, and recovery wouldn’t run anyway, even if one could activate it, if you don’t have the right hardware; it checks!

What I have here, is a legitimate system with a corrupt load. How’s that any different than if it had been corrupted by a virus? I mean, what’s the point of having a recovery capability, that only works when the system IS NOT corrupted?

If you want, you can post a WTB on the Marketplace here and I am pretty sure that someone will offer up a set of the RnR disks for free or just the cost of shipping.

You shouldn't have to pay, especially if you already had the precursors to make them. Additionally, you can call up Lenovo, explain what happened, and they just might send you a free set.