Did I make a stupid purchase? T43 vs. T60

[Ken Fox]

I guess I could still cancel the order today, if you can convince me it was really dumb.

I have a 15" SXGA+ T42 with a 1.7ghz MP, 1.5gb RAM, and a 60gb 7200rpm drive. It runs fine but I find it gargantuan, even on my lap on a lapdesk in my living room. I've owned a 14.1" T40 previously, whose form factor I preferred. I do own an X32 in addition, which is what I travel with most of the time, but occasionally on a road trip would take the T4x with me.

I've been looking for a blowout of T43P models but other than refurbs and whatever those "Mack" warranteed models on ebay are, I haven't seen any deals that were better than just buying a T60. I don't like buying computer gear that has been returned for unknown reasons; computers can be frustrating enough without asking for aggravation.

Anyway, I ended up getting a deal on the phone from a Lenovo rep; it is a 2668-73U, which is a T43, with 512mb RAM, 80gb 5400rpm drive, MP 2.0ghz processor, CDRW/DVD ROM drive, SXGA+ 14.1" screen with a 64mb X300 video card. I paid $899, and it has a 3 year warranty. In addition I ordered another ultrabay HD adapter.

I have ordered an extra gig of RAM, and the 100gb 7200rpm Hitachi drive from another source. My intention is to flash the new HD to eliminate the 2010 error, and put in the RAM. I'll use the 80gb drive in the ultrabay (I have freestanding USB2 optical drives and don't see the utility of burning optical disks in a notebook when I have these drives plus a desktop with optical drives).

So, for around $1230 delivered (incl. tax) I will have the T43 with SXGA+ 14.1", 1.5gb RAM, 100gb 7200rpm primary HD with an 80gb secondary HD in the ultrabay, with a 3 year Lenovo warranty. The shortcoming of the system is the video card with only 64mb of video RAM, and arguably, a 2ghz solo core processor vs. a dual core in the T60. I should add that I already have a couple of spare batteries, extra AC adapters, and a docking station, that fit the T4x series and my X32; had I bought a T60 presumably I'd have needed to buy some extra stuff I don't need to buy with the laptop I just ordered.

My reasoning is that I saved at least $500, probably more if I'd end up buying extra peripheral stuff. The real world performance of the T43 vs. the T60 is unlikely to be much different unless I start doing much more processor intensive stuff than I usually do (which I doubt). I also figured that I can get the almost free Vista upgrade and if I want to use it can use it reasonably well, except for the Aero interface which on a laptop is probably of limited utility. And I might stick with Win XP as the "devil I know."

In addition, the way the prices are falling on this stuff, planning to get anything out of a used laptop after several years is wishful thinking. It is probably better, if you can afford it, to donate the gear to a local school or library and take the tax deduction, so the eventual resale value of the T60 vs. this T43 is probably a minor issue.

I don't know what I"m going to do with my 15" T42; probably, I'll use it as a spare desktop on the mini-dock.

Was this a stupid purchase? Should I call and cancel the order, and get a T60 instead, before the sale ends?

ken

[pianowizard]

You want honest opinions, right? I would have gotten a T60, partly because it's newer, but mainly because most T43's have fan noise problems. Countless T43 owners on this forum regret having bought it.

[Ken Fox]

You want honest opinions, right? I would have gotten a T60, partly because it's newer, but mainly because most T43's have fan noise problems. Countless T43 owners on this forum regret having bought it.

no, I only want people to stoke my ego and tell me I got a good deal

I'm interested in honest opinions, really, and apologize if my post was too lengthy.

ken

[Kyocera]

Should have gotten a t60. That was the question right? If the machine works for you I don't see a problem, but resale woudl have probably been a little better on a newer machine.

[Ken Fox]

Should have gotten a t60. That was the question right? If the machine works for you I don't see a problem, but resale would have probably been a little better on a newer machine.

Thanks for your comment.

I think the resale value issue is unimportant. I say this because when I bought my T42 I would have expected about 1.5x as much for it as these machines now go for, used, on ebay. This is because the prices for newer machines have dropped so fast that the old ones have had to drop even more. Unless something changes in the industry, I'd assume that in 3 years a used T60 will bring maybe $600; since I think I'm saving almost that much with this purchase over a T60, and given the "present value of money" (today's money is worth more than tomorrow's), I'm not concerned about that.

What I'm most interested in is what I would be missing functionally by not getting the newer model, that the newer model has a better build quality or keyboard or screen, that sort of stuff.

ken

[RUSH2112]

You want honest opinions, right? I would have gotten a T60, partly because it's newer, but mainly because most T43's have fan noise problems. Countless T43 owners on this forum regret having bought it.

Would that include you?
I actually miss that T43 believe it or not. I just used the fan controlling script to keep the fan noise managable (even though it did run a bit warmer as a result). Before I found that script, though, the fan noise was quite annoying.

[pianowizard]

I actually miss that T43 believe it or not.

Despite those two big cracks near the USB ports? LOL!

I remember that at one point, you said something like "I would never buy another T43 because of the fan issues".

[dsigma6]

I recently picked up a T43 with 1.86GHz, 40GB 5400 RPM and 1GB RAM, with 2.3 years of warranty for $730 shipped, so you know what I'm thinkin' about your deal!

[Ken Fox]

As I pointed out in the T4x forum thread, some T60s appear also to be afflicted by fan noise problems:

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=35070

Isn't this basically the same problem in basically an updated version of a T43, the T60?

ken

[pianowizard]

Isn't this basically the same problem in basically an updated version of a T43, the T60?

Yes, but I have a feeling that the T60's problem has a higher chance of being fixed by Lenovo, simply because it's a newer model. The T43 has been around for a much longer time and if Lenovo still hasn't fixed its problems, they will probably never bother to do so.

[Ken Fox]

Isn't this basically the same problem in basically an updated version of a T43, the T60?

Yes, but I have a feeling that the T60's problem has a higher chance of being fixed by Lenovo, simply because it's a newer model. The T43 has been around for a much longer time and if Lenovo still hasn't fixed its problems, they will probably never bother to do so.

Which raises another issue, which is whether the currently made Thinkpads are equivalent in "quality" to those that IBM made when they owned the company, rather than 10% or 12% of the company as at present. People buy Thinkpads at a very large cost premium over other brands, in spite of what often is somewhat dated technology, because they think that they are getting laptops that are better designed and put together than the competing product. I'm not as sure that the customer is getting what he expects if Lenovo allows mass dissatisfaction with T43s and T60s due to a design or execution problem that would probably be fairly easy to fix with either a minor modification in the fan or heatsink, or with the bios.

This is one reason that I'm very glad I have an excellent X32, and haven't been tempted by the X60.

ken

[Proteus]

The T43 is pretty much obsolete, sorry to say.
Dual core makes a HUGE difference with Vista/Office 2007. You're looking at double the performance on some apps, and much smoother, snappier response overall.

Once you try a T60P with 2GB+, you'll never go back, its the ultimate portable workstation.

Not that the T43 is bad..but its just a minor upgrade from the T41. The T60 is a MAJOR boost in performance, and well worth the extra bucks. Think..there is a reason Lenovo is unloading those ASAP..nobody will want them now that Vista is out.

[wolfman]

Except for maybe people that don't care about Vista and upgrade often anyway. for $799 or $899 it's a great machine in my opinion.

[Ken Fox]

The T43 is pretty much obsolete, sorry to say.
Dual core makes a HUGE difference with Vista/Office 2007. You're looking at double the performance on some apps, and much smoother, snappier response overall.

Once you try a T60P with 2GB+, you'll never go back, its the ultimate portable workstation.

Not that the T43 is bad..but its just a minor upgrade from the T41. The T60 is a MAJOR boost in performance, and well worth the extra bucks. Think..there is a reason Lenovo is unloading those ASAP..nobody will want them now that Vista is out.

At some point you have to get back to the key questions; what am I going to do with this thing, what do I use computers for, what will I use THIS computer for.

I've been following Vista's evolution, even tried to load one of the more recent beta versions onto a reasonably current desktop (my spare, built from components I discarded with my last desktop build) as dual boot, upgrade, and finally clean install, none of these with success. But I digress. Several of the vaunted Vista features were dumped when it took forever for MS to get their bloatware code out, things like the new file system format, some sort of total system search facility, and others.

What I have been reading lately is that the only thing that seems to Wow people is the Aero interface, which from what I've read is 8 parts gee whiz and 2 parts useful. As to Office, the only apps I use are Word, Outlook, and Access; all of these are used for relatively mundane things like writing the very occasional letter, managing my wine cellar collection, and a calendar/contact list. None of these apps require any processing power to speak of. The likelihood that after I would get Vista and Office 2007 that I'd start heavy duty number crunching with Excel spreadsheets approaches ZERO.

I do use Photoshop CS2, but the only problems I've had with that app on XP are related to bad code from Adobe, notably the "Bridge" application. This will be more or less replaced by Adobe Lightroom when it comes out, and I'm getting a free copy of that because I bought another product from another company that was bought out by adobe and all owners of that product (Rawshooter Professional) are entitled to a copy of Lightroom when it debuts.

What exactly do most people use computers for, anyway? I'd figure that far and away, the major apps are internet browsers, email, light duty digital photo processing, that sort of stuff. Some people are gamers (which I am not) but one can question why you would want to do gaming on a laptop? I'll leave the answers to others. Internet browsers and file downloads and email programs function up to the speed of the limiting function, which in their case is the speed of the internet connection, not the processor in your laptop.

What do people need from an OS? They need it to be stable, to work with all their programs, and not to bluescreen on them too often. Windows XP does this reasonably well, although it is, afterall, a product of Redmond and there is only so much you can do to shine sh*t. Vista, I might add, is a much newer product from Redmond, and there is going to be a lot more sh*t to shine at least for the next few months as the disaster stories start coming out.

There's a huge installed base of XP and computers with XP on them are still being sold this holiday season. This means there is a huge installed base for XP and XP will therefore be regarded to be a current OS (for which mfrs will write code) for the next few years, beyond question.

My impression of the impact of Vista on the average person will be pretty minimal. They will have to buy much more powerful computers in order to handle the resource overhead of the OS, they will be wowed by Aero and perhaps a few other features, at least early on until incompatibilities start to crop up and haven't yet been fixed, and in the end they won't get a whole lot more utility out of Vista than they would have gotten out of XP because Vista appears to be a gluttonous resource hog.

My next desktop, which I'll probably build before 2007 is finished, will undoubtedly be a Vista system. I think, however, that one can have Vista and XP systems coexisting in the same house, and get next to the same functionality with them.

[dsigma6]

The T43 is pretty much obsolete

I get what you're trying to say, but you definitely chose the wrong word. By many people's standards, even a 600E isn't obsolete.

[dfumento]

Do you really need the 'T' model at all? Each additional computer means more time spent doing maintenance and handling problems. Since you use the X32 most of the time, consider upgrading to an X60 with
1) Much longer battery life.
2) Free Vista Upgrade (Vista is worth it -- See Security features post in Vista section of this forum written by me).
3) More warrany life.
4) Faster machine.
5) Will run 64-bit if you get the Core 2 Duo

I just use the single X60 Core 2 Duo listed below with Dell 24" monitors (1920 x 1200) at home and at work. I'm thinking I'll get a VTBook which will allow me to run a second Dell 24" at home and at work.

[pianowizard]

I get what you're trying to say, but you definitely chose the wrong word. By many people's standards, even a 600E isn't obsolete.

Indeed. For what the OP needs, even a 600E is adequate (and without annoying fan noise!).

[dsigma6]

(and without annoying fan noise!).

Ha, I'm almost tempted to buy one.

[w0qj]

Have you considered a 2nd hand or refurbrished 14" T42 model, which has come down in price?


T42 can use any 2.5" PATA hard drive, and doesn't have that infamous 2010 error like the T43 does.

T42 has S-Video out, which the T60 does not have.

[Ken Fox]

I get what you're trying to say, but you definitely chose the wrong word. By many people's standards, even a 600E isn't obsolete.

Indeed. For what the OP needs, even a 600E is adequate (and without annoying fan noise!).

"Need" does not even factor into the equation. People who participate in online computer forums tend to fit into one of two groups; desperate people with a problem who found the forum through a web search and who are gone as soon as the problem is fixed, and those who find computers interesting and enjoy fooling around with them (aka "computer nerds"); I'm a member of the latter group.

My first PC was an original (or maybe 2nd version) Compaq Portable, with a 5" (or was it 7"?) B&W CRT display, two 5" floppy disk drives and no hard disk. I owned it when it was a current model. Since then I've owned and built god knows how many desktop systems and a whole slew of laptops, including 2 or 3 prior Thinkpads and my current crop of 2, soon to be 3. I'll admit to you if you won't repeat it that I've even owned 1 Dell, a Toshiba, an Acer, and a Micron (notebook), and probably two or three others I've forgotten.

I tend to buy tech related things and then try to figure out things to do with them

(EDIT) I've deleted stuff from the post that made this post too long and probably not of much interest here.

ken

[Ken Fox]

Have you considered a 2nd hand or refurbrished 14" T42 model, which has come down in price?


T42 can use any 2.5" PATA hard drive, and doesn't have that infamous 2010 error like the T43 does.

T42 has S-Video out, which the T60 does not have.

I have a T42 and am typing on it right now. I'm not concerned about the 2010 error. I've downloaded the CD flash disk and have a 100gb 7200 rpm Hitachi PATA drive on its way here. I'll flash the firmware and use it.

I don't do refurb computer equipment, especially when I can buy a new model for the price I'm paying. It isn't worth the aggravation in the long run. In addition, if you scan the prices on the refurbs on ebay, I did about as well on new one as a similar refurb would cost (or better) plus I'm getting a real Lenovo 3 yr. warranty.

[Ken Fox]

Do you really need the 'T' model at all? Each additional computer means more time spent doing maintenance and handling problems. Since you use the X32 most of the time, consider upgrading to an X60 with
1) Much longer battery life.
2) Free Vista Upgrade (Vista is worth it -- See Security features post in Vista section of this forum written by me).
3) More warrany life.
4) Faster machine.
5) Will run 64-bit if you get the Core 2 Duo

I just use the single X60 Core 2 Duo listed below with Dell 24" monitors (1920 x 1200) at home and at work. I'm thinking I'll get a VTBook which will allow me to run a second Dell 24" at home and at work.

I definitely do not "need" a T model, but then that isn't really important. At home, especially in the winter by the fire, or outside in the summer on a deck, I'd much rather have a bit larger screen than the 12" screen on an X3x or X6x. At the same time, I find the 15" screen on my present T42 to be too big, or at least I find the laptop itself to be too big. 14" seems to me to be perfect as regards the form factor, but for travel, especially extended travel far away, I'd prefer to lug a subnotebook like an X.

You are quite right that each additional system adds complexity and hassle to one's life. At the same time, if computers are an interest, a hobby, then playing around with them can be fun. And, since things invariably go wrong, it isn't such a bad thing to have some redundancy in one's collection of computers.

I looked at the X60 (or at least pictures of it and specs) and can't convince myself that the almost $2K I'd spend on one to get what I'd want would be money well spent. The sort of stuff I do on these trips does not require much speed or processor power. I'm doing mostly web related stuff and a lot of correspondence. My X32 with a 1.8ghz processor, and 1.5gigs of RAM is more than capable of doing what I need on the road. I also have a fond attachment to it, what else can I say?

I'm concerned about the video card (or I should say, lack thereof, e.g. integrated video) on the X60 series. My impression is that the next step will be that Lenovo will phase out this configuration and within a year or so the standard X6x model will have a separate video card. If I'm going to upgrade my X32, I want to have the change very noticeable, and at this point I'm not sure it would be, especially on the road using the laptop's own screen.

And finally, the X60 just seems a bit too expensive to me for what it is.

ken
p.s. I'm going to get the Vista upgrade on the T43 since it is capable of running it, although not the Aero interface. I'll play around with it and decide if I want to stick with it or go back to XP. In any event, I'm planning to run Vista on a new Desktop I'll build in about a year.

[JonathanGennick]

Anyway, I ended up getting a deal on the phone from a Lenovo rep; it is a 2668-73U, which is a T43, with 512mb RAM, 80gb 5400rpm drive, MP 2.0ghz processor, CDRW/DVD ROM drive, SXGA+ 14.1" screen with a 64mb X300 video card. I paid $899, and it has a 3 year warranty.

Are those still available? Last I looked on Lenovo's "closeout" page, the only T43 left was at the lower 1024x768 resolution.

[Ken Fox]

Anyway, I ended up getting a deal on the phone from a Lenovo rep; it is a 2668-73U, which is a T43, with 512mb RAM, 80gb 5400rpm drive, MP 2.0ghz processor, CDRW/DVD ROM drive, SXGA+ 14.1" screen with a 64mb X300 video card. I paid $899, and it has a 3 year warranty.

Are those still available? Last I looked on Lenovo's "closeout" page, the only T43 left was at the lower 1024x768 resolution.

I don't know. You could call Lenovo and see if someone will look up that model # and let you know if they can get it to you at that price. It was never listed on the internet sales sites as far as I know.

ken

[Ken Fox]

the ship date went from 12/18 to 12/20 to 12/22, and now the sales rep tells me it would be sometime in January (they are short of the intel ABG wireless cards). I decided to cancel the order. I am in and out in January plus I think the value of this system will rapidly fall. By mid January it may be a sh*tty deal and I will have other opportunities. I'll keep the T42 for now and consider other options later.

Thanks for all comments.

ken

[pianowizard]

the ship date went from 12/18 to 12/20 to 12/22, and now the sales rep tells me it would be sometime in January (they are short of the intel ABG wireless cards).

All these serious shipping delays that people have been complaining about are unacceptable. I don't think Dell has such a problem, even though they sell a lot more laptops each day.

Anyway, it can be a blessing in disguise, because the chance of getting a disappointing T43 is quite high.

[Ken Fox]

the ship date went from 12/18 to 12/20 to 12/22, and now the sales rep tells me it would be sometime in January (they are short of the intel ABG wireless cards).

All these serious shipping delays that people have been complaining about are unacceptable. I don't think Dell has such a problem, even though they sell a lot more laptops each day.

Anyway, it can be a blessing in disguise, because the chance of getting a disappointing T43 is quite high.

I'm less sanguine about the choice now than I was before, although I think I would have been satisfied with it. I wanted one with the 128mb FireGl card and ended up taking one with the plain jane 64mb video card because I thought it was a good deal. But just being a good deal is not really a good reason to buy it.

I am now left with RAM and a HD I ordered for this system that I now need to return (well, for sure at least the RAM). They arrived today and I expected the system to arrive by Friday. In another thread dealing with the Hitachi 7200rpm notebook drive (the questioner has an X31) I posed the question of whether I'd notice any difference swapping the 2.5 year old HTS726060MAT00 (60gig, 7200rpm) drive currently in my X32 for the drive I just received, which is a newer Hitachi ATA-6 7200rpm drive, the 100gb HTS721010G9AT00.

My assumption is that whatever nominal transfer speed difference in the newer drive would be of little value because the IDE channel and system bus would be the bottlenecks and would not allow the better performance to be evident to the user. Of course the drive has 40 extra gigabytes but I have no dire need of that in the X32. The power draw in the newer drive is also a bit less, but I doubt it would amount to more than 5 minutes additional battery power on this laptop (effect on heat, unknown).

Any thoughts as to whether there would be enough improvement in system performance to swap the drives? I'd put the old one in an enclosure or use it some other way.

Best,

ken