2.5" Sata HD connector same as that for desktop?

[Mark_Venture]

Sorry for such a noobie question...

I know there is the ultrabay adapter to put a SATA drive into as a 2nd drive...

But I'm looking for an alternate solution to recover data when necessary...

Is the SATA connector on the 2.5" drives the same as on 3.5" Desktop SATA drives?

In other words, would something like -> http://www.compusa.com/products/product ... _Enclosure work to attach the laptop drive to USB port while we attempt to copy data off?

[steveg47]

The sata connector should fit but the housing is not designed to hold a 2.5" drive. For flexiblity you might want to consider something like this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6812156017

[Mark_Venture]

I figured it wouldn't fit for "permanent mounting"

was more conserned with temporary for data recovery before we send the drive out for warranty replacement...

that other device you suggested looks good too!! Nice find!!

Thank you!!!

[EOMtp]

In other words, would something like ... work to attach the laptop drive to USB port while we attempt to copy data off?

Short answer is NO. Longer answer is as follows:

Indeed, one can connect a Thinkpad notebook drive to a desktop EXCEPT that the BIOS of the Thinkpad uses a different drive geometry than the BIOS of the desktop. Consequently, not all data read/written to the notebook drive from the desktop will be readable on the Thinkpad, and vice versa. The specific details of what part of the data will flow properly and what part will not are a function of the type and size of the drive in question.

Bottom line: the data of an internal Thinkpad notebook drive must be read/written while the drive is used as an internal Thinkpad drive. Otherwise the data may not be accessed correctly.

[bitsoffish]

In other words, would something like ... work to attach the laptop drive to USB port while we attempt to copy data off?

Short answer is NO. Longer answer is as follows:

Indeed, one can connect a Thinkpad notebook drive to a desktop EXCEPT that the BIOS of the Thinkpad uses a different drive geometry than the BIOS of the desktop. Consequently, not all data read/written to the notebook drive from the desktop will be readable on the Thinkpad, and vice versa. The specific details of what part of the data will flow properly and what part will not are a function of the type and size of the drive in question.

Bottom line: the data of an internal Thinkpad notebook drive must be read/written while the drive is used as an internal Thinkpad drive. Otherwise the data may not be accessed correctly.

this is not true... drives made for laptops can also be used on desktops as long as a proper connection could be made. therefore a 2.5" sata drive on the thinkpad would work on a desktop so long as it could be connected to the desktop's motherboard.

[EOMtp]

... drives made for laptops can also be used on desktops as long as a proper connection could be made. therefore a 2.5" sata drive on the thinkpad would work on a desktop so long as it could be connected to the desktop's motherboard.

Would work, should work, ... it does NOT work -- not for all drives all the time -- and the resons are counter-intuitive until you understand the details. Of course drives made for laptops work on desktops if the proper connection can be made. However, that is not the issue.

The issue is whether or not all the data on the drive written by a non-Thinkpad can be accessed by a Thinkpad, and vice versa. That depends on the drive geometry used by the BIOS, and the desktop's BIOS uses a different geometry than the Thinkpad. Consequently, certain data (depending on the physical location on the disk) which was written on the non-Thinkpad machine will not transfer properly to the Thinkpad, and vice versa.

Once again, the geometry discrepancy issues depend on the specific drive, size, and location of the data on that drive. Things may appear to work, except that not all -- only some -- of the data may be read/written correctly. This situation is specific to the Thinkpad's disk access geometry and does not apply to a drive full of data that one wants to swap between an HP or Dell notebook and a desktop.

[ttfing]

Sorry for such a noobie question...

I know there is the ultrabay adapter to put a SATA drive into as a 2nd drive...

But I'm looking for an alternate solution to recover data when necessary...

Is the SATA connector on the 2.5" drives the same as on 3.5" Desktop SATA drives?

In other words, would something like -> http://www.compusa.com/products/product ... _Enclosure work to attach the laptop drive to USB port while we attempt to copy data off?

I think this item would work better; and it's cheaper.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6812156102

I bought the same one from microcenter so I could make a recovery for my new hdd. Works for all size and form factor hdd.

[steveg47]

... drives made for laptops can also be used on desktops as long as a proper connection could be made. therefore a 2.5" sata drive on the thinkpad would work on a desktop so long as it could be connected to the desktop's motherboard.

Would work, should work, ... it does NOT work -- not for all drives all the time -- and the resons are counter-intuitive until you understand the details. Of course drives made for laptops work on desktops if the proper connection can be made. However, that is not the issue.

The issue is whether or not all the data on the drive written by a non-Thinkpad can be accessed by a Thinkpad, and vice versa. That depends on the drive geometry used by the BIOS, and the desktop's BIOS uses a different geometry than the Thinkpad. Consequently, certain data (depending on the physical location on the disk) which was written on the non-Thinkpad machine will not transfer properly to the Thinkpad, and vice versa.

Once again, the geometry discrepancy issues depend on the specific drive, size, and location of the data on that drive. Things may appear to work, except that not all -- only some -- of the data may be read/written correctly. This situation is specific to the Thinkpad's disk access geometry and does not apply to a drive full of data that one wants to swap between an HP or Dell notebook and a desktop.

Amazing, I've been swapping drives from thinkpads to other brands of laptops and desktops and visa versa and recovering data for years on literally hundreds of machines and how do you like that, I never realized it wouldn't work.
Mark, just don't password protect your drive or encrypt it and you'll be fine using either of the two devices recommended from Newegg.

[RonS]

You can move formatted drives around between computers and swap data just fine. What you can't do is format the Thinkpad's drive on another computer (where the geometry is established) and then move it to the Thinkpad. That won't work.

[EOMtp]

You can move formatted drives around between computers and swap data just fine. What you can't do is format the Thinkpad's drive on another computer (where the geometry is established) and then move it to the Thinkpad. That won't work.

Absolutely correct. Further, if you backup the Thinkpad's drive unto another computer using the other computer and then try to recreate that drive image onto a new drive using the other computer -- expecting to end up with a working Thinkpad drive -- you will be unpleasantly surprised. That's the warning I would like to get across to the person who started this thread.

[RonS]

You can move formatted drives around between computers and swap data just fine. What you can't do is format the Thinkpad's drive on another computer (where the geometry is established) and then move it to the Thinkpad. That won't work.

Absolutely correct. Further, if you backup the Thinkpad's drive unto another computer using the other computer and then try to recreate that drive image onto a new drive using the other computer -- expecting to end up with a working Thinkpad drive -- you will be unpleasantly surprised. That's the warning I would like to get across to the person who started this thread.

Very true. I learned that lesson trying to use Acronis to restore a Thinkpad drive on another computer. It won't work.

[brentpresley]

... drives made for laptops can also be used on desktops as long as a proper connection could be made. therefore a 2.5" sata drive on the thinkpad would work on a desktop so long as it could be connected to the desktop's motherboard.

Would work, should work, ... it does NOT work -- not for all drives all the time -- and the resons are counter-intuitive until you understand the details. Of course drives made for laptops work on desktops if the proper connection can be made. However, that is not the issue.

The issue is whether or not all the data on the drive written by a non-Thinkpad can be accessed by a Thinkpad, and vice versa. That depends on the drive geometry used by the BIOS, and the desktop's BIOS uses a different geometry than the Thinkpad. Consequently, certain data (depending on the physical location on the disk) which was written on the non-Thinkpad machine will not transfer properly to the Thinkpad, and vice versa.

Once again, the geometry discrepancy issues depend on the specific drive, size, and location of the data on that drive. Things may appear to work, except that not all -- only some -- of the data may be read/written correctly. This situation is specific to the Thinkpad's disk access geometry and does not apply to a drive full of data that one wants to swap between an HP or Dell notebook and a desktop.

Dude, you are SO WRONG on so many levels.

I've literally uses HUNDREDS of SATA laptop hard drive (including IBM drives w/ modified firmware) on my desktop in the last year. There is absolutely no difference in the ability of a desktop or laptop to read the drive.

The firmware does all the translation for the drive layout, NOT THE BIOS.

Please do your homework before you confuse people.


EDIT - and I don't know what version of acronis you guy are using, but I restore laptop backups to laptop drives on my desktop all the time. T60p has no problems with it.

[EOMtp]

Dude, you are SO WRONG on so many levels.

Believe what you please; it won't change reality. The "magic" happens only when one reaches specific cylinder/sector boundaries.

You speak of SATA drives and T60p units. What do you know of PATA drives and T4x units? How about a SATA drive in a T60 Ultrabay adapter (which maps to PATA)?

If you believe that the BIOS has no "hand" in drive geometry, then you really do not understand the precise details of disk access; it is that simple. Some day you might have to figure it out, you will recall this exchange, and you'll be happy you have a good memory. Until then, believe as you wish.

[RonS]

Let's keep it nice guys, okay?

My experience with Thinkpad-specific geometry has been with Thinkpad PATA drives (as reported by EOMtp). I haven't had a chance to restore (format) a Thinkpad SATA drive using Acronis on a separate computer. It may very well work just fine (as reported by brentpresley).

Let's assume that we're all right. If so, then:

1. Thinkpad PATA drives must be formatted in a Thinkpad to work in Thinkpad
2. Thinkpad PATA drives, once formatted, can be freely swapped between different computers to move data.
3. Thinkpad SATA drives have no such restriction.

[brentpresley]

What do you know of PATA drives and T4x units?

Take it to the T4x forum. We were talking SATA and T60.


But FYI, I've had ZERO problems doing this w/ Acronis TrueImage and a T42 image transferred from a desktop to PATA laptop drive via a USB adapter. Granted, the ORIGINAL image was from a thinkpad drive as well, so perhaps Acronis is smart enough to record the geometry into the image and restore it properly.

[EOMtp]

We were talking SATA and T60.

You are correct on both accounts:
-- we were indeed talking about SATA drives and T60 machines, and
-- the geometry issue I discussed does not exist with SATA drives which are identical to the source drive.

Indeed, one can copy a Thinkpad SATA drive image to a desktop, restore that image using the desktop to a different SATA drive of same make/size connected to the desktop, and then install that new drive into a Thinkpad.

RonS is precise and correct with his 1./2./3. summary two posts above this one. However, if the source and destination drives are different types/sizes, then geometry may become an issue with SATA drives the way geometry is an issue always with PATA drives.

[Lazarus]

Amazing, I've been swapping drives from thinkpads to other brands of laptops and desktops and visa versa and recovering data for years on literally hundreds of machines and how do you like that, I never realized it wouldn't work.
Mark, just don't password protect your drive or encrypt it and you'll be fine using either of the two devices recommended from Newegg.

Did u ever try that swapping with a SATA drive?
While I can confirm that I myself have swapped IDE/ATA 2.5"drives for years myself, I can also vouch that when I tried to use my 160GB SATA drive in an external USB enclosure, all hell broke lose.

Originally I was able to access one drive at least in read mode, but once I tried to resize some partitions and/or format others I got the most strange of read/write errors and now the drive has become all but inaccessible.

The other drive wouldn't even give me the time of day.
It had just one big logical partition on it and I couldn't even see that one.

I think the internal BIOS geometry layout has a lot to do with it, as just moving the drive from the primary to the secondary internal slot caused my disk maintenance program to start complaining about the faulty disk geometry.

All the problems had had with using the SATA drives externally was just one more reason why I decided to move of the T60p again.

[Ken Fox]

Since this thread deals with disk formatting in and out of Thinkpads, I think this question is a bit related and hopefully I can get a conclusive answer given the people posting in this thread.

Although I've used Ghost 2003 for a whole lot of disk clones, I've never known whether I needed to format the recipient drive before dumping the ghost image(s) onto it, or if ghost 2003 essentially performs this function in the process of restoring the image onto the new drive. As a result, I've always formatted the new drives even though this may not be necessary.

My question is:

Can you take a brand new, unformatted and unpartitioned drive, stick it into a thinkpad, and have Ghost do a complete disk restore, either from a USB drive or an ultrabay drive holding the drive image? Or, do you need to partition and or format it in advance? My guess is that you don't need to do anything to the unformatted/unpartitioned hard drive if you are going to do a whole disk restore, but would need to at least partition the new drive in advance if you are going to restore each partition independently (and as a result in that case you'd need to repair the MBR as well).

[steveg47]

Since this thread deals with disk formatting in and out of Thinkpads, I think this question is a bit related and hopefully I can get a conclusive answer given the people posting in this thread.

Although I've used Ghost 2003 for a whole lot of disk clones, I've never known whether I needed to format the recipient drive before dumping the ghost image(s) onto it, or if ghost 2003 essentially performs this function in the process of restoring the image onto the new drive. As a result, I've always formatted the new drives even though this may not be necessary.

My question is:

Can you take a brand new, unformatted and unpartitioned drive, stick it into a thinkpad, and have Ghost do a complete disk restore, either from a USB drive or an ultrabay drive holding the drive image? Or, do you need to partition and or format it in advance? My guess is that you don't need to do anything to the unformatted/unpartitioned hard drive if you are going to do a whole disk restore, but would need to at least partition the new drive in advance if you are going to restore each partition independently (and as a result in that case you'd need to repair the MBR as well).

I also use ghost2003 for most of my cloning functions and I don't ever remember having to format a drive prior to ghosting a disc image to it. I do recall copying an image from an ntfs drive to a drive that I didn't realize was already formated as fat32 and the result was that ghost apparently kept the fat32 and converted the ntfs thus making the drive unbootable. I also vaguely recall that I used a commandline option to overide the existing disc format when I realized what happened.

[ttfing]

Wow. Where the hell did this thread go??

[Lazarus]

My question is:
Can you take a brand new, unformatted and unpartitioned drive, stick it into a thinkpad, and have Ghost do a complete disk restore, either from a USB drive or an ultrabay drive holding the drive image?....

Forget about partitioning and formatting.
Ghosting a disk drive is nothing else but making a complete(!) copy of it.
Sector by sector, track by track.
Formatting or partitioning a disk before ghosting would be like whitewashing a wall before tearing it down.
What you do need to worry about is changes in disk geometry.
So ghosting e.g. a 100GB disk to an 80GB drive or even a 120GB disk to a 160GB HD.
The S/C/H count differs and in case of SATA Bridge Controllers even the logical S/C/H translation will change depending on wether the disk is hooked up via the primary, secondary or USB port.

The more professional disk maintenance programs will allow for S/C/H adjustments after the fact.
The less professional ones won't and even so your drive will then originally work in that case, you will(!) run into the most bizarre of errors later on.
Specially large volume disk checks will give you the ride of your life, right out the window and onto the concrete pavement :-O

So in short, only ghost disks onto each other which are identical in every HW aspect and make sure the BIOS uses the same S/C/H translation logic for both.

PS: Ghosting a disk is different than ghosting a partition, which for various reasons I would never recommend a novice to do.

[Ken Fox]

Forget about partitioning and formatting.
Ghosting a disk drive is nothing else but making a complete(!) copy of it.
Sector by sector, track by track.
Formatting or partitioning a disk before ghosting would be like whitewashing a wall before tearing it down.
What you do need to worry about is changes in disk geometry.
So ghosting e.g. a 100GB disk to an 80GB drive or even a 120GB disk to a 160GB HD.
The S/C/H count differs and in case of SATA Bridge Controllers even the logical S/C/H translation will change depending on wether the disk is hooked up via the primary, secondary or USB port.

The more professional disk maintenance programs will allow for S/C/H adjustments after the fact.
The less professional ones won't and even so your drive will then originally work in that case, you will(!) run into the most bizarre of errors later on.
Specially large volume disk checks will give you the ride of your life, right out the window and onto the concrete pavement :-O

So in short, only ghost disks onto each other which are identical in every HW aspect and make sure the BIOS uses the same S/C/H translation logic for both.

PS: Ghosting a disk is different than ghosting a partition, which for various reasons I would never recommend a novice to do.

This flies in the face of god know's how many disk clones I've done over the years with ghost 2003 and some of its predecessors, in thinkpads, other laptops, and even more desktop computers. In the last MONTH I have replaced 3 desktop HDs with larger ones for friends with a medical office, and (now) cloned TWO 60gb 7K60s to 100gb 7K100s in my own laptops.

I've also done a ton of partition to partition clones.

I believe that you are correct about not needing to do anything to a new HD, out of the box, before making it the recipient of a disk clone. I have proven that to myself yesterday, and should have been obvious to me before.

I don't know where you got your information (about going from a smaller disk to a larger one, or a different one) but it is not reproduced by my own personal experience. It is also one of the major reasons that anyone would use this software, to facilitate a hard disk upgrade, and if what you posted was correct then the software would be nearly useless for its intended purpose.

[Mark_Venture]

Wow. Where the hell did this thread go??

Yeah wow, what a debate...

Btw, so IF i read/digest correctly everything posted here...

for "drag/drop" data recovery using Windows Explorer on a working laptop, with the "bad drive" as a 2nd drive... NOT imaging, etc...

I can attach via desktop adapter, the external usb enclosure, or the other two devices from newegg.com suggested.. WITHOUT problem...
and of course, there is no way I'm preping a drive in a DIFFERENT model PC... If a user's PC needs a re-image, rebuild, or what ever you want to call it.... new drive is being done in that user's PC, or exact same model machine...

As a TEMP solution... I was able to put the BAD Sata drive into the primary bay of my T60, and I did find using the latestUBCD for Win, booting from it, I was able to copy the data files to a spare drive in a USB Enclosure...

it worked, wasn't elegant, and I could not use my laptop during the process, but it did the trick for this user...

[steveg47]

Wow. Where the hell did this thread go??

Yeah wow, what a debate...

Btw, so IF i read/digest correctly everything posted here...

for "drag/drop" data recovery using Windows Explorer on a working laptop, with the "bad drive" as a 2nd drive... NOT imaging, etc...

I can attach via desktop adapter, the external usb enclosure, or the other two devices from newegg.com suggested.. WITHOUT problem...
and of course, there is no way I'm preping a drive in a DIFFERENT model PC... If a user's PC needs a re-image, rebuild, or what ever you want to call it.... new drive is being done in that user's PC, or exact same model machine...

As a TEMP solution... I was able to put the BAD Sata drive into the primary bay of my T60, and I did find using the latestUBCD for Win, booting from it, I was able to copy the data files to a spare drive in a USB Enclosure...

it worked, wasn't elegant, and I couet thld not use my laptop during the process, but it did the trick for this user...

Good for you. Let the mole hill to mountain builders rag on. They seem to be enjoying the debate. And I certainly wouldn't want to be the one to spoil their fun.

[EOMtp]

Let the mole hill to mountain builders rag on. They seem to be enjoying the debate.

This thread is not a debate whether vanilla or chocolate ice cream is better. Some people care to understanding how things work, beyond mere utilitarianism, i.e., "if it worked, I don't care why".

Here is an analogy for disk drive addressing:
Imagine there are package delivery/pickup drivers (BIOSs) and each driver is assigned to a set of city blocks (each set represents a disk drive). Houses (data sectors) in this city do not have house numbers written on them -- one has to count houses to get to the house with the house number one wants.

Each driver knows the house numbering scheme for his set of blocks, and generally it is: odd numbers on the south sides of the blocks, even numbers on the north sides of the blocks.

However, some drivers use a different rule: only for every 115th block, every 54th house's number is swapped with every 55th house's number.

What if one sends a driver to a set of blocks not his own? All will be fine most of the time, except when the driver tries to reach the 54th or 55th house on a block which is a multiple 115 in a set of blocks where that rule applies.

One can see how some people here are saying that they changed "drivers" (pun intended) and still were able to access all the houses they intended. Of course they did -- it's a matter of which set of blocks (drives) they tried and the house numbers they tried to access. Unless they ever tried to access the 54th or 55th house on a 115th block in a set of blocks where different numbering rules applied, they would never know that there is an issue.

[steveg47]

This thread is not a debate whether vanilla or chocolate ice cream is better. Some people care to understanding how things work, beyond mere utilitarianism, i.e., "if it worked, I don't care why".

It is probable that you may have some consider knowledge and very useful info to relate; but a preachy, pompous, pontificating, superior attitude with simplistic analogies wont attract many listeners. Sorry if this seems harsh but that is my honest impression gathered from the manner in which you presented yourself in this thread.
Anyway, I will say no more on this issue and probably have said to much already.
I apologize if my blunt honesty has offended anyone.

[EOMtp]

... simplistic analogies...

The analogy is not a bad one. However, I am always looking for a better explanation, so I hope you improve upon it. Thank you.

[steveg47]

... simplistic analogies...

The analogy is not a bad one. However, I am always looking for a better explanation, so I hope you improve upon it. Thank you.

I wouldn't even try.