Z-Series Notebooks In The Can

Message

gotconsultants · #1 Post by **gotconsultants** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:20 pm

Although I could not get Lenovo PR to admit to it, sources inside of Lenovo have stated to me that the Z-Series is heading for the graveyard.

It seems that there were enough problems with the design and RMA rates, that the notebooks are slowly going EOL.

From my personal experiences, I would advise everyone to head to the T-Series 15.4" Widescreen. The only downside is that currently the Titanium covers have not migrated over to the T-Series, but was told to expect it fairly soon.

Also the "T-70" model rumor will not bear fruit and should be branded under the "T-6x" and feature the Intel Santa Rosa platform.

Manarius · #2 Post by **Manarius** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:42 pm

I like my Z60m. I think it's an awesome notebook.

christopher_wolf · #3 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:44 pm

I wasn't even aware there *was* a T70 rumor, as the next logical progression is the T61.

There was a report like this awhile back and a thread was made out of it, but nothing much came of it and that was last year.

agarza · #4 Post by **agarza** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:51 pm

So, newer T series should incorporate Firewire and a Multi-card reader, right.

itzcoolz · #5 Post by **itzcoolz** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:30 am

i have a z61t that is supposed to ship the 22nd... how does discontinuing the series affect me?

will they continue to support it?

what happens if there are hardware problems?

is it worth switching my order?

Ken Fox · #6 Post by **Ken Fox** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:39 am

itzcoolz wrote:i have a z61t that is supposed to ship the 22nd... how does discontinuing the series affect me?

will they continue to support it?

what happens if there are hardware problems?

is it worth switching my order?

Someone you never heard of, who posts under a pseudonym, makes an unsupported statement and you are reconsidering your notebook purchase.

Chill.

gotconsultants · #7 Post by **gotconsultants** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:47 am

Ok so just so people don't think I am blowing smoke out of my rear, I write for a very well known IT news site... Plan on seeing this story up with a link in the next couple of days...

I would stay with the Z-Series but I have been recommending to all of my client base to pick up the Accidental Damage.

ATH · #8 Post by **ATH** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:36 pm

There are more problems reported with R60 and R60e then with Z60m, Z60t and Z61m.

ATh.

pianowizard · #9 Post by **pianowizard** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:54 pm

Ken Fox wrote:Someone you never heard of, who posts under a pseudonym, makes an unsupported statement and you are reconsidering your notebook purchase.

That's a good point. However, I vaguely remember people on this forum talking about Lenovo dropping the Z series about half a year ago, so this is not the first time such a rumor has been brought up, increasing its credibility a little bit.

gotconsultants · #10 Post by **gotconsultants** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:23 pm

I have had a ton of notebooks on both ends, but I have NEVER had so many issues with a notebook that I owned personally as I have had with my TWO Z's (60m & 61m).

My original Z60M, which I no longer have, and can't talk about the reasons, had enough issues on it's own. The Z61M I currently have is less than 6 months old and I have a fan going out already. The system repeatedly locks up, and it is not a software issue.

Since Day 1, I have had issues with the Active Protection system. I was told by Lenovo support that it was because of an old driver. The funny part is that the driver I had on the system, was newer than what I could download from Lenovo for almost 4 months...

Ken Fox · #11 Post by **Ken Fox** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:45 pm

pianowizard wrote:
Ken Fox wrote:Someone you never heard of, who posts under a pseudonym, makes an unsupported statement and you are reconsidering your notebook purchase.
That's a good point. However, I vaguely remember people on this forum talking about Lenovo dropping the Z series about half a year ago, so this is not the first time such a rumor has been brought up, increasing its credibility a little bit.

I think you can argue whether it makes any sense for the Thinkpad line to include BOTH the Z and R series. I have actually taken delivery of a Z61T a couple of days ago, which I bought (at a very good price) basically to play around with it; whether I'll still own it in 3 months is very much an open question. I haven't used it at all so far, being tied up with the other two new machines I've gotten recently, merely ghosted the HD in preparation for replacing it with a 7K100 that UPS failed to deliver on schedule yesterday.

I was curious to see how I'd react to the form factor, which is unique for the Thinkpad line, a 14" wide screen (after selling my T42 15", I want no more bulky machines like that). My initial impression is that the build quality is a touch below the X and T series, with which I'm familiar.

Getting back to my first paragraph, if the Z is in fact a little bit of a drop in fit and finish scale, and that the TP line has no room for anything crappy like the low end Dells, then the floor for the TP line is probably at the Z-R level (I'm assuming they are the same or perhaps Z is a little bit above R, but both below X and T). You could consolidate the R and Z level machines into another line, and have room in both for budget business/academic, and budget multimedia lines. That would give TP 3 well differentiated model series that made a bit more sense to me than having 4 with the last two being sort of disorganized in the models and crossover with the top two lines.

pianowizard · #12 Post by **pianowizard** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:58 pm

Ken Fox wrote:I think you can argue whether it makes any sense for the Thinkpad line to include BOTH the Z and R series.

Or whether it makes sense to have both the Z and T series, because the T series now includes widescreen models. So yes, i agree that the Z series is now getting redundant.

#13 Post by **K. Eng** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:03 am

It would not surprise me if the Z series was eventually canceled. It doesn't fit well into the product matrix if the T series goes widescreen.

Ken Fox · #14 Post by **Ken Fox** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:54 am

K. Eng wrote:It would not surprise me if the Z series was eventually canceled. It doesn't fit well into the product matrix if the T series goes widescreen.

What the T-series lacks is a 14" widescreen model, which is why I decided to give the Z61T a try. Not everyone likes gargantuan notebooks, and 15" widescreens fit that description for me.

Talon88 · #15 Post by **Talon88** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:34 pm

:::

Don't worry, The Z6xT is well build.

The Z6xT is very close to T series 14" & is good.
Slim & light.

The Z6xM 15" is like R series a bit low end.

:::

gotconsultants · #16 Post by **gotconsultants** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:46 pm

Part of the reason there is a T-Series out now, is that the Z-Series is being phased out.

I have a Z61M right now and already have another tech visit scheduled for Tuesday to replace a fan after 6 months. After having seen a Z60 torn down 6-7 times and a T43 torn down a few times, the Z-Series is overly complex compared to the T in the way it is put together. To get to certain core parts (ie CPU), you have to disassemble the entire notebook. On a T-Series getting to those same core parts is not too much of a pain in the [censored]...

So before someone asks why I don't do my own repairs?

It is very time consuming to tear down a notebook, and by the time I have to do it 2 times, it is cheaper for me to buy the support plan than to waste my own time doing it

craigg · #17 Post by **craigg** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 7:37 pm

I too have had many issues with the Z61t including nothing but trouble with the active protection system. I have had to RMA 3 units in the past few months and it was nothing but a headache. I have always been a IBM Thinkpad fan but now I find them difficult to recommend to clients. I'm still using a Z61t but may be trading it it on a Sony Vaio.

gotconsultants wrote:I have had a ton of notebooks on both ends, but I have NEVER had so many issues with a notebook that I owned personally as I have had with my TWO Z's (60m & 61m).

My original Z60M, which I no longer have, and can't talk about the reasons, had enough issues on it's own. The Z61M I currently have is less than 6 months old and I have a fan going out already. The system repeatedly locks up, and it is not a software issue.

Since Day 1, I have had issues with the Active Protection system. I was told by Lenovo support that it was because of an old driver. The funny part is that the driver I had on the system, was newer than what I could download from Lenovo for almost 4 months...

gotconsultants · #18 Post by **gotconsultants** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 9:23 pm

I figure I am going to get [censored] again in a few weeks after dealing with technical support... Hopefully they get it fixed in less than 10 visits...

#19 Post by **K. Eng** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 9:35 pm

Ken Fox wrote:
K. Eng wrote:It would not surprise me if the Z series was eventually canceled. It doesn't fit well into the product matrix if the T series goes widescreen.
What the T-series lacks is a 14" widescreen model, which is why I decided to give the Z61T a try. Not everyone likes gargantuan notebooks, and 15" widescreens fit that description for me.

I agree on the 15" widescreens -- they are a bit too big for me as well. I think that if a 14" widescreen T series became available, the case for keeping the Z6xt around would be difficult. As far as i could tell, the Z series' feature set was geared around multimedia applications (widescreen, card reader, slightly better speakers). These would not be difficult to build into a T series machine, which makes the Z series redundant.

My hunch is that the Z series was designed far in advance of the Lenovo purchase of IBM PCD. PCD probably wanted a product that could launch the ThinkPad into the consumer space. Now that Lenovo owns PCD, and Lenovo branded notebooks cover the consumer space, the Z series is doubly redundant.

gotconsultants · #20 Post by **gotconsultants** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:59 pm

That is pretty much what is going on... Hopefully soon we will get Titanium covers

itzcoolz · #21 Post by **itzcoolz** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:44 pm

craigg,

i was concerned because I just ordered a z61t, and I had heard that its build quality was on par (and i've heard even more solid) than the T60.

Can you elaborate more on your problems and the customer service you've received?

And were you given the option to switch to a similar priced T series?

craigg · #22 Post by **craigg** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:00 am

The physical exterior of the unit is solid but the problems lie in the internals and with having to deal with customer support. So far the issues that I have had to deal with are one unit that arrived with the internal WIFI antenna disconnected, one unit with many bad pixels, and 4 units with a defective active protection system. I had to fight to return one unit to Ingram Micro as they usually refer customers to IBM for an exchange but in my case IBM was out of stock on the model 9440-2cu. One unit was exchanged after IBM dispatched an improperly trained tech to replace a system board and he ended up cracking the case, breaking off the door that covers the PCMCIA slot, and drove a screw right through the palm rest. After this happened, IBM told me they would send me a box for depot repair even though I had paid for next business day service. I had to fight for a replacement as I now had a damaged laptop plus active protection was still not working. I have yet to see one unit where Active Protection worked 100% of the time. It always seems to display errors and I'm not sure what triggers the error. IBM has done nothing except to avoid the issue. I have found that the only solution is to disable the active protection sensor completely. If you call IBM they will often claim that it's a software issue; however I've seen the issue on at least half a dozen units now all with different installed applications. Considering that most of these were model 9440-2cu retailing for $2000, I find the level of service as well as the quality being subpar at this price point. I have received better service on $500 Dell laptops. At this point I rarely suggest a Thinkpad unless someone specifically asks for one.

itzcoolz wrote:craigg,

i was concerned because I just ordered a z61t, and I had heard that its build quality was on par (and i've heard even more solid) than the T60.

Can you elaborate more on your problems and the customer service you've received?

And were you given the option to switch to a similar priced T series?

ATH · #23 Post by **ATH** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:30 pm

Hello,

I have a Z60m (with titanium cover) for more then a half year. Every day it is on between 8 and 10 hours. And there are no problems with hardware or software.

Axel.

Ken Fox · #24 Post by **Ken Fox** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:55 pm

This does not qualify as a long term followup, but merely a first impression. I took delivery of a Z61T last week and have upgraded the RAM to 2gb, and the Hard Disk with a 7K100 100gb version. I have loaded a lot of software on it, burned a CD, and gotten the unit more or less buffed up to my liking. Last night I used it exclusively for several hours.

As a long time Thinkpad owner dating back to a 560 subnotebook, now three versions of the T4x series, and two X's, I'm favorably impressed with my initial experience with the Z61T. I was expecting something slightly better than an R series in terms of build quality, but now that I've had a chance to work on the innerds of the thing, it is clearly much better than that, I'd say close to being on a par with a T series model.

The screen is fully adequate, in fact quite good (I have the 1440x900). It feels very solid. The keyboard is very much like the other thinkpads I've owned.

Any machine can be a lemon and for sure there can even be a run of lemons over a short period of time. My machine was assembled literally less than 10 days ago. If what I have seen on this machine is representative of what they are producing in the Z61T line at this particular moment, there is no reason to be concerned if you have one on order and in fact I think you will be quite pleased with it when you receive it.

vital-analitix · #25 Post by **vital-analitix** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:55 am

Took delivery of my Z61m (model 94515CM) on the 23rd of September and retired my two A31's shortly afterwards. I am running my hardware hard (high loads) and require high reliability. RUnning the machine 14 hours a day (cut down from the 5 x 24 hours for the A31's).

Have had zero problems and am totally satisfied with it.

Only issue I have is that when both CPU's running 100% load then I get a continiously rising temperature - it was still creeping up at 74 C....

To put this in perspective.....

On one of the A31 I replaced the CPU with a 2.6 Ghz and put the fan in from the A31p and had continously the temperature around 70 - 74 C. CPU would throttle down at 75C for protection... Eventually other parts started to fail due to the high temperature. (read somewhere that memory should not be run at temperatures above 65 C).

However in real high load duties I am finding that the temperature on the Z61m has never been above 61 C. This should not represent any issues.

Never the less I am looking at ways to reduce this temperature. From my semiconductor studies I still have this nagging idea that every 10 C higher temperature reduces the life expectancy by half, no idea if this is still true today (that info is 25 years old...he he, shows how old I am...)

Would have no hesistation buying another one tomorrow. (unlike the Toshiba's, Sony's, Dell's, NEC's that I have had in the past. This is laptop number 15 or 16, have lost count....)

Hope this helps
Marinus

PS Was introduced to IBM laptops at work with a 600 series and later a T20 and that is why I switched from Toshiba to IBM for my own stuff)

PS2 I do however believe in one thing: Once a "technician" outside the factory touches one of my machines it gets moved on. I once worked in the solid state industry and was responsible for antistatic procedures. What 99% of the technicians call "proper antistatic" procedures I call "a joke". And antistatic damage results in a lower life expectancy of the electronics.

zhenya · #26 Post by **zhenya** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:57 pm

Never the less I am looking at ways to reduce this temperature. From my semiconductor studies I still have this nagging idea that every 10 C higher temperature reduces the life expectancy by half, no idea if this is still true today (that info is 25 years old...he he, shows how old I am...)

Try a program called Notebook Hardware Control. One of its many features allows you to reduce the CPU voltage from within Windows. I am able to reduce the voltage of my 1.86 Pentium M an average of .3v at each multiplier, which reduces my temps by well over 10c on average. My processor now idles at an average of about 38c and rarely reaches even the low 60's under full load.

Bob34 · #27 Post by **Bob34** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:44 pm

Man with all the complaints I might have not purchased a z61m, but that would be a shame. To be fair, on receiving my unit I had BSODs after awhile (IE not an apparent issue), but being the guru I am

I narrowed it down to a bad memory stick (I have 2) so I took it out while I waited for the other one to be replaced (though they replaced both *shrug*). But that can happen on any component, I've had Corsair XMS series RAM have issues out of the box (only visible with stress/mem testing).

Besides that, everything runs fantastic, no problems with APS. The Fingerprint reader can be wonky sometimes but thats user error combined with its design (scan, which is suppose to be more secure...). The only flaw, and this isn't series specific is the ThinkVantage stuff. I like PM, APS, UltraNAV and the Fingerprint software but everything else is wasted on me. CSS is just crap IMHO, though I haven't tried v8 yet.

I love being able to hook this machine up through S-Video and watch media stored on my Desktop. The card reader has let me diagnose client hardware so glad I have that.

As for taking it apart... maybe its just because this is my first thinkpad to take apart, but compared to HP, Dell, Toshiba, and Apple laptops I've seen this [censored] thing is a breeze. Maybe the memory is harder than other laptops (some have door access with one screw), but access to the internals (Wi-fi cards, CPU, etc) is pretty [censored] easy.

Glad I made the Z series purchase over the T but if they get rid of the Z please please Lenovo add S-video and the card reader to the T. Oh and the Titanium cover... was hesitant to get it, liked the classic black... but man it looks sharp.

billp117 · #28 Post by **billp117** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:41 am

In the can? I doubt it. Please note the latest option to add Vista to a Z61t on the Lenovo website:

Operating system [12] Help me decide
Genuine Windows XP Home Edition [subtract $79.00]

Genuine Windows XP Professional [$0.00]

Genuine Windows Vista Business [New]

Z-Series Notebooks In The Can

Z-Series Notebooks In The Can

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