Should I wait for Santa Rosa?

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Growly · #1 Post by **Growly** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:14 pm

I hear Santa Rosa is coming out in April. Is it worth the wait for a T60p that comes with it till then? I've been waiting for a T series laptop for years now...

I just don't know what to do. I hear after that improved CPU cores are coming too...

#2 Post by **tomh009** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:41 pm

Support for >3 GB of memory
Dynamic FSB switching for some power-saving
Improved integrated graphics
Integrated 802.11abgn
Integrated UMTS/HSDPA WWAN
Flash-memory caching (may or may not be enabled by Lenovo!)

The Merom CPU cores are already shipping today.

wswartzendruber · #3 Post by **wswartzendruber** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:47 pm

Santa Rosa will have an 800 MHz FSB and a new line of Meroms to go along with it.

brentpresley · #4 Post by **brentpresley** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:19 pm

Santa Rosa is COMPLETE marking BS by Intel.

1) you will notice NO real-world gains by going to 800MHz FSB on laptops. Why? Because the cache on Core 2 Duos is HUGE and these chips are not limited by the FSB. We are seriously talking MAYBE 5% of a performance gain. And that is ONLY on the most memory intensive apps. It is only if we start to see quad core chips on laptops that higher FSB will be useful.

2) The integrated peripherals of the chipset are MARGINALLY better, but how many of us really use the integrated video? ABGN is already available in a PCIE card.

3) current chipset already supports 4GB memory. You just have to run a 64-bit OS to access above 3GB.

#5 Post by **tomh009** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:04 pm

I agree, partially. 800 MHz won't make a difference on laptops, and new Meroms won't be a big deal, either. (Not that I think quad cores will be a big difference, either.

Integrated UMTS WWAN will be a boon to those of us who use GSM networks rather than CDMA. Better integrated video will be great for those of with X-series ThinkPads.

And the ability to install more than 3 GB of memory (the current ThinkPad design limitation) will be very nice a few years from now when apps are even hungrier than today.

brentpresley · #6 Post by **brentpresley** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:06 pm

tomh009 wrote:I agree, partially. 800 MHz won't make a difference on laptops, and new Meroms won't be a big deal, either. (Not that I think quad cores will be a big difference, either.

Integrated UMTS WWAN will be a boon to those of us who use GSM networks rather than CDMA. Better integrated video will be great for those of with X-series ThinkPads.

And the ability to install more than 3 GB of memory (the current ThinkPad design limitation) will be very nice a few years from now when apps are even hungrier than today.

T60 is NOT limited to 3GB FYI.

Only XP 32-bit limits it to 3GB (because of addressing issues).

Physical limitation by the chipset is 4GB.

pianowizard · #7 Post by **pianowizard** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:10 pm

Growly wrote:I hear Santa Rosa is coming out in April. Is it worth the wait for a T60p that comes with it till then? I've been waiting for a T series laptop for years now...

If you have already been waiting for years, waiting for several more months shouldn't be too hard, right? I think you should wait so that you won't regret it later.

tomh009 wrote:Better integrated video will be great for those of with X-series ThinkPads.

Excellent point!

tomatoeblue · #8 Post by **tomatoeblue** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:11 pm

Wait, but wasn't there a technical note from Intel about how they designed their existing laptop chipsets to "steal" memory from that 4 gig max to feed into the PCI-Express addressing scheme? So out of a max of 4 gigs, you can only see about 3.5 gigs. This was a hardware limitation of the chipset. Has anyone tried to run Windows XP 64 bit on a T60 with 4 gigs of Ram?

#9 Post by **tomh009** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:15 pm

brentpresley wrote:T60 is NOT limited to 3GB FYI.

Only XP 32-bit limits it to 3GB (because of addressing issues).

Physical limitation by the chipset is 4GB.

Chipset supports 4 GB, yes. Top 1 GB is used for addressing other system components on ThinkPads, though, so even though you can install 4 GB, you will only be able to address 3 GB -- search the forums and you will find examples of people running a variety of 64-bit OSs, all of them seeing 3 GB.

Or have you tested your T60 with a 64-bit OS and gained access to the full 4 GB? If so, which OS?

#10 Post by **tomh009** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:16 pm

tomatoeblue wrote:Wait, but wasn't there a technical note from Intel about how they designed their existing laptop chipsets to "steal" memory from that 4 gig max to feed into the PCI-Express addressing scheme? So out of a max of 4 gigs, you can only see about 3.5 gigs. This was a hardware limitation of the chipset. Has anyone tried to run Windows XP 64 bit on a T60 with 4 gigs of Ram?

Exactly. Yes, someone on the forums tried (I think with a T60), and saw 3 GB with 64-bit XP. Ditto with 64-bit Linux.

brentpresley · #11 Post by **brentpresley** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:31 pm

tomh009 wrote:
tomatoeblue wrote:Wait, but wasn't there a technical note from Intel about how they designed their existing laptop chipsets to "steal" memory from that 4 gig max to feed into the PCI-Express addressing scheme? So out of a max of 4 gigs, you can only see about 3.5 gigs. This was a hardware limitation of the chipset. Has anyone tried to run Windows XP 64 bit on a T60 with 4 gigs of Ram?
Exactly. Yes, someone on the forums tried (I think with a T60), and saw 3 GB with 64-bit XP. Ditto with 64-bit Linux.

This HAS to be a BIOS limitation and not a HW limitation. Even w/ the PCI-E buffering mentioned you should be able to get 3.5-3.75GB out of the system.

I bet when 2GB DIMMs come down out of the stratosphere we will see a BIOS upgrade that addresses this.

own6volvos · #12 Post by **own6volvos** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:39 pm

tomh009 wrote: Integrated 802.11abgn
Integrated UMTS/HSDPA WWAN

Yuck, does that mean no upgrading of those? I hope they aren't putting that stuff soldered on.

grahamdavis · #13 Post by **grahamdavis** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:55 pm

The only thing that has me excited about santa rosa is uefi, because from what I have read, unifed extensible firmware interface (uefi) will have a command shell that will enable booting os's without all the grub or or other on-disk bootloader nonsense. I think that they are not making it uefi 2, so maybe its not that great. Do you think its possible to upgrade current bios firmware to uefi?

Oh and best of all, unlike OpenFirmware, uefi is written in c

Other than that, I am super happy with the current t60. Technology is something you just have to jump into. You cant sit around waiting for the next big thing, because there will always be something better on the horizon.

If you need it, buy it now. It will always get better eventually.

#14 Post by **tomh009** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:18 pm

brentpresley wrote:
tomh009 wrote:Exactly. Yes, someone on the forums tried (I think with a T60), and saw 3 GB with 64-bit XP. Ditto with 64-bit Linux.
This HAS to be a BIOS limitation and not a HW limitation. Even w/ the PCI-E buffering mentioned you should be able to get 3.5-3.75GB out of the system. I bet when 2GB DIMMs come down out of the stratosphere we will see a BIOS upgrade that addresses this.

That's quite possible. We just won't know for sure for the time being.

#15 Post by **tomh009** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:20 pm

own6volvos wrote:
tomh009 wrote: Integrated 802.11abgn
Integrated UMTS/HSDPA WWAN
Yuck, does that mean no upgrading of those? I hope they aren't putting that stuff soldered on.

Probably not -- I would expect it to be akin to the current Intel wireless MiniPCI cards, which can be substituted with Atheros or others. But I have no inside info ...

own6volvos · #16 Post by **own6volvos** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:40 pm

tomh009 wrote:
own6volvos wrote: Yuck, does that mean no upgrading of those? I hope they aren't putting that stuff soldered on.
Probably not -- I would expect it to be akin to the current Intel wireless MiniPCI cards, which can be substituted with Atheros or others. But I have no inside info ...

Maybe they mean WWAN integrated with the intel 802.11 cards or something?

kulivontot · #17 Post by **kulivontot** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:43 am

Don't bother waiting, if you need a laptop, get a laptop. In all honesty, santa rosa doesn't offer all that much... 800 Mhz FSB, a possible increase in memory capacity (which will either not be supported by the OS or will be impossible to find since 2GB modules are pretty much the max right now) and intel's draft N card (Which you can get an equivalent IBM card with current T60p's). Also it's not coming out any time soon, and when it does, it will be even longer before lenovo releases a thinkpad to match it. Things like WWAN or Robson may not even be present on the thinkpad variations in a year or so. Therefore, there's really not all that much to wait for.

#18 Post by **tomh009** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:56 am

If you need to have a laptop right now, I agree, you should buy one now. But if you still have one that's OK (like my X31), you might want to wait until Lenovo's spring refresh with Santa Rosa.

For me, I do want at least a three-year lifespan for a new laptop, so having the improved graphics (for Vista!), increased memory capability for 64-bit OSs (even if today 2 GB modules are expensive, that may not be the case in a year), or the UMTS WWAN (which I can only get on a PC Card/ExpressCard right now) are all things that I would find valuable in the long term.

dfumento · #19 Post by **dfumento** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:15 am

The Santa Rosa will have a better built-in graphics processing unit (GPU) which if you want extended battery life is the GPU you want to have because discrete GPUs significantly decrease battery life (check out Graphically Long Battery Life). For instance, in the X60 which only uses the Intel GPU or if you want the longer battery life in the T60 with more powerful Intel built-in graphics, it might be worth waiting for if you want better GPU performance.

Growly · #20 Post by **Growly** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:50 pm

Wow! Thanks for the replies guys!

Unfortunately I've spent the last year in a hole, and have grown distant from the news of upcoming chipsets, CPUs, RAM chips, etc. I'm trying desperately to get back in the zone now...

pianowizard wrote:If you have already been waiting for years, waiting for several more months shouldn't be too hard, right? I think you should wait so that you won't regret it later.

You're absolutely right, and that's why I started this thread - to be sure. The improvements seem to be good and bad, and I agree that I could potentially spend eternity waiting for the next refresh before buying...

Unfortunately, New Zealand T60 models do not come with the flexview screen - I called Lenovo and asked here, and they said all I could do was wait for the model refresh in a few months to see if they introduce it.

So I'm waiting. Wikipedia tells me the platform is scheduled for release in April (about the same time as the refresh), but as was pointed out it may take Lenovo a kick up the [censored] to actually do something about it.

Glad to hear (strange, I know) that the improvements aren't earth shattering.

/edit: bbcode syntax

robvarga · #21 Post by **robvarga** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:52 am

brentpresley wrote:
tomh009 wrote:I agree, partially. 800 MHz won't make a difference on laptops, and new Meroms won't be a big deal, either. (Not that I think quad cores will be a big difference, either.

Integrated UMTS WWAN will be a boon to those of us who use GSM networks rather than CDMA. Better integrated video will be great for those of with X-series ThinkPads.

And the ability to install more than 3 GB of memory (the current ThinkPad design limitation) will be very nice a few years from now when apps are even hungrier than today.
T60 is NOT limited to 3GB FYI.

Only XP 32-bit limits it to 3GB (because of addressing issues).

Physical limitation by the chipset is 4GB.

And practically the limitation is 2GB, anyway, due to the price of the 2GB RAM modules.

Should I wait for Santa Rosa?

Should I wait for Santa Rosa?

UEFI has got me interested

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