Help me transition to Thinkpads please! Keyboard issues

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Steerpike · #1 Post by **Steerpike** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:11 pm

After years of using a variety of laptop brands, I'm now the proud owner of a brand new T60. I'm also the IT director for a company that is considering adopting Thinkpads as our corporate laptop standard.

Overall, I'm pleased with it, especially liking the cool operation and long battery life. But what is absolutely killing me is the keyboard layout! While everything is personal preference, and it's hard to argue 'standards', it drives me nuts that the 'Fn' key is lower left, with the 'Ctrl' key to it's right. On every other laptop brand I've ever used, the 'Ctrl' key is lower left, with the 'Fn' key to it's right. Also, every free-standing keyboard I've ever used has the 'Ctrl' key lower left. As a 'touch typist', I don't look at the keyboard when I type and I'm constantly hitting the 'Fn' key when I want the 'Ctrl' key - which I use a surprsingly large amount of time (multiple select, ctrl-c to copy, ctrl-v to paste, etc).

I suppose Thinkpad users are used to this, and thus don't want to change it, but I need to change it if I'm to be productive with this machine. I've googled extensively and all indications are, the 'Fn' key is not re-mappable ... is this true?

How do thinkpad users deal with normal keyboards (when the laptop is docked, etc)?

It may amuse you thinkpad die-hards out there, but the only reason I was willing to consider thinkpads at all was because they are now placing the 'windows' key on the keyboard! Some of the shortcuts it provides - 'windows+D' for minimize all, 'windows+E' for Windows Explorer, 'windows+L' for Lock, etc - are absolute time savers for me.

Any tips greatly appreciated!

SafeHarbor · #2 Post by **SafeHarbor** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:09 pm

Hi, Steerpike,

I don't have experience with other laptops, but I do find the function key in a convenient place. Look at the top two rows on the keyboard and their secondary functions. These were deliberately designed to make short work of common tasks - such as turning on the Wifi radio (Fn-F5) or selecting an external monitor or projector (Fn-F7) or turning on the keyboard light (Fn-opposite corner).

I do look down at the keyboard when I press one of these combinations, but I don't accidentally hit it when I don't want to. I think that the placement requires a deliberate action, and since I type at least subconsciously, I don't find myself accidentally hitting it.

Hey, it's just something to get used to, but I don't think you'll find it too hard.

Oh, and I use a Dvorak layout, too.

#3 Post by **jdhurst** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:17 pm

A number of my clients find a port replicator helpful. To the port replicator you can add a keyboard of choice, a mouse of choice, and a monitor of choice. You can get a second power supply and leave it tied to the port replicator.

I set them up so the replicator (and ThinkPad) are at the side and the Monitor, Keyboard and Mouse are directly facing you. In effect, it is a desktop machine while in the office. Then turn it off, eject it and take it all with you.

I am on my IBM Desktop right now and the keyboard is a standard IBM keyboard. There is no function (Fn) key and there are the two standard Windows keys (that I never use).

I have a T41 with the standard ThinkPad keyboard. I guess this is an answer you don't wish to hear, but I find my T41 just fine. The keyboard is different than the desktop but I have adapted to it with no real problem.

... JD Hurst

Steerpike · #4 Post by **Steerpike** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:51 pm

As a computer user of (too many

) years, I can certainly adapt. As the IT guy for my company, I have to get used to working on all manner of keyboards. At my office desk, I have the port replicator and a keyboard of my choice, and life is good. But when I take it home and use it, which I do every night, I use it as a laptop .... on my lap ... and am stuck using the built in keyboard, which is where the problem lies.

I guess this is one of those 'Thinkpad' things ... the thinkpad has a somewhat non-standard layout, comparing it to all other laptops I've ever used (dell, compaq, toshiba, etc), but if Lenovo changed it then all the current thinkpad users would be impacted (but if they don't, it makes it harder to transition to the Lenovo). I'm surprised they don't allow a 'swap' of those keys in the various keymapping utilities, but apparently they don't.

Looking at the physical layout of the kbd, I see that the thinkpad ctrl-key is wider than average, and occupies some of the same physical space that the ctrl-key occupies on my standard external kbd, so I just need to get used to avoiding the Fn key.

I like the build quality of the thinkpad, I like the overall packaging, I like the battery/power profile of the T60. I'm less impressed with most of the 'extra' software that's loaded, but have not gone so far as to uninstall yet (though we did have to go to some lengths to disable the 'proprietary' IBM wireless manager software for reasons I forget now). I LOVE the shock detection feature - I've always worried about movement of laptops, and this seems to be the perfect solution. The keyboard is way too noisy (again, this is probably one of those 'love it or leave it' thinkpad things, most existing users probably love it).

What market share does Thinkpad have of the laptop market, anyone know? Is it growing or declining?

tom lightbody · #5 Post by **tom lightbody** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:46 pm

well, googling on "windows swap keyboard keys" got

http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/device/in ... n-map.mspx

the example swaps <ctrl> with <caps_ lock>

Steerpike · #6 Post by **Steerpike** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:57 pm

Thanks for the link. I did go down the path earlier of researching scan code mappings. Reading the intro to the article you posted, it says "... PS/2-compatible scan codes provided by an input device are converted into virtual keys ...". I believe the issue is, the 'Fn' key is not a standard scan code, and/or, it's not passed to the OS by the firmware, or something.

However, I will re-visit this with fresh enthusiasm tonight! I did find one page already that suggests Fn is code 55, for what it's worth. I'll post back with findings

Thanks!

#7 Post by **tomh009** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:26 am

Steerpike wrote:On every other laptop brand I've ever used, the 'Ctrl' key is lower left, with the 'Fn' key to it's right.

Of course the Ctrl key rightfully belongs in the space currently occupied by the CapsLock key ...

tom lightbody · #8 Post by **tom lightbody** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:59 am

check out "sharpkeys" from

http://www.randyrants.com/2006/07/sharpkeys_211.html

he says he's added Fn support. (Need .NET 2.0)

skanky · #9 Post by **skanky** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:50 am

it'll become second nature after a while, at work we used to use thinkpads but now using dells (grr!), for me, its still natural when fixing an ibm to auomatically remember that the FN key is where the CTRL key is and switch back when using a dell or external keyboard.

its just muscle reflex, i guess my martial arts instructor was right, do something enough times and you'll be able to do it without thinking about doing it.

Steerpike · #10 Post by **Steerpike** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:09 pm

tom lightbody wrote:check out "sharpkeys" from

http://www.randyrants.com/2006/07/sharpkeys_211.html

he says he's added Fn support. (Need .NET 2.0)

Thanks for this tip! I have installed it, and ... well ... it's trying to work ! I'll provide feedback to the author and see if he can get it to work 'well', 'cause it's almost there!

I 'swapped' Fn and left CTRL. The first fun and games occurs when you try to log back in after the mandatory reboot - your left ctrl-key can no longer be used as part of the ctrl-alt-del sequence (which makes sense) but neither can the (what was the) Fn key. Right control key worked. I thought I was locked out for a while there!

In excel, I tried to use the new 'Ctrl' key (Fn Key) to do a multi-select of cells (ctrl-click on cell after cell) - it works, but only if you press and hold Fn for a while - longer than is 'natural'. Using Ctrl+down arrow to 'go to last cell' does not work with the newly remapped key (works with right control still).

And now, the left 'Ctrl' key on my external keyboard no longer works at all

So ... like I said ... it's sort-of half-working, and thus, there may be hope!

I'll post my findings to the author in the hope he/she can figure out what's going on. So many sites say that the Fn key sends either no or odd scan codes, I'm not too optimistic, but at least now I'm learning about how key presses are handled!

tom lightbody · #11 Post by **tom lightbody** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:44 pm

*nix "showkey" gives

<right_ctrl> 0x61 0xe1
<left_ctrl> 0x1d 0x9d
<fn> 0x00 0x81 0x8f 0x80 0x81 0x8f

what a monster--sounds like you're having fun:-)
please do keep us informed

Steerpike · #12 Post by **Steerpike** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:36 am

tom lightbody wrote:check out "sharpkeys" from

http://www.randyrants.com/2006/07/sharpkeys_211.html

he says he's added Fn support. (Need .NET 2.0)

More research reveals ...

Version history for Sharpkeys (FAQ page) has this:

================
1.0 Beta 4/Release Candidate 2 - 3-Feb-2004/0.9.4.0
Added Type Key dialog for the Add/Edit mapping form
Added Fn support (same code as "wake)
================

So some 'Fn' support was added back in 2004. However, comments by Randy on his site as recently as 9/2006 include: "if you tried to remap the on-board Thinkpad volume keys or the Fn key, it wouldn't work: some keys come into Windows, some don't. "

and (Nov 06) "Fn should work like a Ctrl or Alt key. In reality, it's still a 50-50 shot and the bigger problem is the triple byte code that the key is returning: SharpKeys only deals with double byte codes, which 99% of the keyboard offers. And even if it did handle it, it's still a 50-50 shot: I get keycodes from my Lenovo hardware keys on my ThinkPad but they are still un-mapable... the hardware layer steals it and ignores the remap."

and (Jan 07) "Short answer: no. ... In depth reason as to why: Plz read one of the 46 comments above or check the FAQ

"

Finally, I found another page (which I cannot find again to quote), where he explains that, even though his 'typekeys' utility 'sees' the key press, he can't actually do anything with it.

So ... I think it's time to give up and just live with the Fn key the way it is. Shame on IBM/Lenovo for not offering a means of switching them - there are a LOT (I know, I've read many of them this past few days) of users out there struggling with this, and many who have returned thinkpads or not bought them because of it. Shame because the T60 seems to be a good machine otherwise. I guess I need to be thankful they have recently added the 'Windows' key and a synaptics touchpad.

#13 Post by **rkawakami** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:43 am

I know your pain. I feel it everytime I switch between a type 5 and type 6 Sun keyboard

.

dr_st · #14 Post by **dr_st** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:45 am

Steerpike wrote:So ... I think it's time to give up and just live with the Fn key the way it is.

Yeah, that what I'd suggest to begin with. It will really stop being a problem after a short while. I'm using my T42 a lot and I'm also using desktop keyboards, and experience no problems whatsoever with adjusting to the switched layout.[/quote]

Steerpike wrote:Shame on IBM/Lenovo for not offering a means of switching them - there are a LOT (I know, I've read many of them this past few days) of users out there struggling with this, and many who have returned thinkpads or not bought them because of it.

IBM/Lenovo is not the only one who has the Fn key on the far left. My old Compaq has the same thing. There are two standards here, and while I agree that one is much more dominant than the other, there'll always be people complaining if it was the other way around. And I have not heard of any other manufacturer providing means to switch the keys.

At least the Ins/Home/PgUp/Del/End/PgDn are in place and not scattered around or stuck on the right as with most laptops these days.

srirams · #15 Post by **srirams** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:13 am

another person with the ctrl and fn confusion here

I keep hitting fn+c and fn+v and wondering why it doesn't work.

pianowizard · #16 Post by **pianowizard** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:23 pm

srirams wrote:another person with the ctrl and fn confusion here

The TP240's keyboard is even worse. Besides swapping Fn and Ctrl, Tab and Caps are also swapped!

sapibobo · #17 Post by **sapibobo** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:36 pm

I think they did it to make the think light strokes; which is need FN + PgUp; unchanged.

This Fn position issue is bugging me big time first weeks i use Thinkpad. Onwards i get used to it and find it not as bugging as the first time.

1madman1 · #18 Post by **1madman1** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:39 am

The keyboard layout is one of the reasons why I like Thinkpads... (at least until the latest generation, I hate the new Windows key)

skanky · #19 Post by **skanky** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:36 am

dr_st wrote:At least the Ins/Home/PgUp/Del/End/PgDn are in place and not scattered around or stuck on the right as with most laptops these days.

urgh yeah i remember i used to work with old small form factor toshiba portege's and they had those keys down the side i think it was.. *shudder*

even though the X series is small form factor, i credit ibm/lenovo in being able to fit those keys in a 3x2 block instead of 1x6 crapness, even on a keyb that size.

jhwelch · #20 Post by **jhwelch** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 12:19 pm

I think there's a business opportunity here for a company to make
drop in replacement keyboards with the Fn and Ctrl keys
swapped or have it as an option when ordering a new laptop.

-jonathan

Steerpike · #21 Post by **Steerpike** » Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:30 pm

I pulled the kbd out of mine the other day to see if it could be easily modified, but it's way too sealed for my amateur efforts!

It's a nice modular unit, easy to remove, and there could be enough demand out there for some enterprising soul to make a replacement. Here's a site selling used ones for $9.99

, and here's a place that repairs and sells them. Some company could focus on remapping a variety of keys (ctrl, alt, windows, etc etc) and satisfy all us weird picky people!

I'm getting more and more used to mine now, but ... my main workhorse computer at home is still my Dell D600, and until I transfer all my music and video from it to the thinkpad, I'm stuck toggling back and forth between the two and that's why this is driving me nuts. I use Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V, Ctrl-click so much in spreadsheets and while editing documents.

A google search for 'Thinkpad keyboard Fn Ctrl' yields 47,000 results. The first page of results shows 7 people complaining about the layout; the other 3 docs are discussing the keys in a different context.

I picked up a small USB keyboard at Frys to see if I could use it 'on top of' my laptop (since I do use my laptop 'on my lap'), but it too had oddly arranged keys; not the Fn/Ctrl keys, but other equally important keys. Oh well.

For those of you who hate the 'Windows' key, if you want to at least try to get some value out of it - since it's there - you may want to try the combinations windows+E (explorer), windows+R (run), windows+D (minimize all/show desktop), to name but a few. Having suffered Repetitive Stress Syndrome and/or Carpal Tunnel Syndrome 10 years ago due to excessive mouse use, I'm now very grateful for keyboard alternatives to excessive mouse clicks. Note that these shortcuts are built into windows, you don't have to 'map' anything - which is important if like me you work on dozens of computers in the course of a week.

Sgt Raven · #22 Post by **Sgt Raven** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:01 pm

Steerpike wrote:
I picked up a small USB keyboard at Frys to see if I could use it 'on top of' my laptop (since I do use my laptop 'on my lap'), but it too had oddly arranged keys; not the Fn/Ctrl keys, but other equally important keys. Oh well.

For those of you who hate the 'Windows' key, if you want to at least try to get some value out of it - since it's there - you may want to try the combinations windows+E (explorer), windows+R (run), windows+D (minimize all/show desktop), to name but a few. Having suffered Repetitive Stress Syndrome and/or Carpal Tunnel Syndrome 10 years ago due to excessive mouse use, I'm now very grateful for keyboard alternatives to excessive mouse clicks. Note that these shortcuts are built into windows, you don't have to 'map' anything - which is important if like me you work on dozens of computers in the course of a week.

Have you tried a Microsoft Natural keyboard for your desktop? My wife was having trouble with her wrists and they really helped her. She hates to use a regular keyboard anymore. What part of the bay area are you in?

Steerpike · #23 Post by **Steerpike** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:28 am

Sgt Raven wrote:Have you tried a Microsoft Natural keyboard for your desktop? My wife was having trouble with her wrists and they really helped her. She hates to use a regular keyboard anymore. What part of the bay area are you in?

Absolutely! I have one at home in my home-office, and one at work. So when I'm at my desk at work, I have the luxury of using this great keyboard. However, when at home, I now prefer to sit on my comfortable sofa with my feet up in front of the TV while using my laptop, rather than go to my (cold, lonely, lifeless) home-office.

I live near walnut creek, work in san mateo.

If I use my keyboard/mouse carefully, I never have a problem now. But if I have to work on some random user's workstation, and if their environment is not well setup, I quickly feel the old pains I used to feel. Amazing how the body works! I've also found that using the 'trackpoint' mouse causes major problems for me, compared to the touchpad - which is counter-intuitive.

Help me transition to Thinkpads please! Keyboard issues

Help me transition to Thinkpads please! Keyboard issues

Re: Help me transition to Thinkpads please! Keyboard issues

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