Possibly another EZServ ordeal in the making *PICS*-RESOLVED

Message

Eric Giles · #1 Post by **Eric Giles** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:45 pm

Yep, I finally am getting to experience the downfall of the Thinkpad support/repair situation firsthand. I sent in my almost three year old T40 (2373-A7U) on Friday due to a number of issues that had been occuring:

1.USB ports not working-plugging in a device would case a hard lockup of the laptop. Other times if it did not lock, the device would not be recognized.

2. Problems with the AGP to PCI interface driver. I had to install the Standard PCI to PCI device driver to get working video back last year. Linux distributions would freeze at the point that it was loading the correct X driver for the video. Basically, the video subsystem was faulty.

3. Crack on the right side of the keyboard/palmrest bezel right next to the right cursor key.

4. AC adapter jack was loose/wiggling inside the unit.

5. Screen brightness was less than when new-hey, its still under warranty right? Might as well give it a shot at replacement!

Lots of issues-but I don't abuse the thing-it has been my primary computer for almost three years now and it sees a LOT of use every day.

So this afternoon I get the call I was dreading, and what a number of other people have received-Solectron tech says -'liquid damage'. I knew it, and that is total BULL***T! The woman and I had a nice long chat about the current state of Thinkpad service and support, and how I knew this was a very, very common claim for many others that had sent their Thinkpad in for service. I complained to her about how Thinkpad service has severely declined in the past few years, and even she acknowledged things had definitely changed and she gets a lot of complaints these days.

In the end, they will be e-mailing me the pictures of my supposed 'liquid damage' for me to dispute. Not sure how this will turn out, but of course there is no way I will be paying $935 for the repair.

I'll keep this thread updated with my results.

#2 Post by **K. Eng** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:00 pm

Ugh, another liquid spill problem.

pianowizard · #3 Post by **pianowizard** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:28 pm

Eric Giles wrote:I get the call I was dreading, and what a number of other people have received-Solectron tech says -'liquid damage'.

Yet again??!! This is outrageous!

Eric Giles · #4 Post by **Eric Giles** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:28 pm

Well, they sent me the pictures of the damage today. I don't know guys-I have never spilt anything into this unit of my knowledge-yet something above the motherboard shows corrosion and one leg of the memory DIMM shows it too. But, I am still not convinced. Here are the links to the pictures. Please take a look and tell me what you think. Click on the thumbnails to view the larger image.

Terrahawk · #5 Post by **Terrahawk** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:02 pm

I don't think that it matches the pattern of a typical liquid spill into a laptop. Firstly, there is not enough liquid and secondly the observed corrosion does not seem to correspond to the typical ways that liquids pool once inside a computer.

Frankly, I think that it is an excuse to make you pay.

jsteele · #6 Post by **jsteele** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:53 pm

Well, it certainly looks like corosion, but it doesn't look like a liquid spill to me -- especially since the two incidents are so far apart physically and there is apparenty no damage on any parts between the USB port area and the DIMM socket.

Do you live near the ocean? Spend a lot of time in a salty atmosphere?

Eric Giles · #7 Post by **Eric Giles** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:09 pm

I agree-something has caused it to corrode/oxidize, but in my opinion if it was liquid, it would have run directly down to the motherboard-and wouldn't there be some signs of liquid there they would have pointed out? Also, one lead on the memory DIMM shows something, and likewise would not more than one lead have corrosion? Seems highly unlikely it would have only affected one contact point when there are so many others next to it.

I don't live next to the beach or near salt air, although it does get very humid here in south Mississippi most of the year. I do carry it in the trunk of my car, and sometimes during the winter it will experience temperature extremes, but when in the car it is always in a Port laptop case.

Anyone have any pointers on how I approach my dispute with them on these spots?

#8 Post by **rkawakami** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:42 pm

Speaking as a memory test engineer, looking at the two traces on the module, which I believe to be a 200 pin DDR SODIMM, the corrosion is directly on pin 38. To the right is pin 36, to the left pin 40. This side of the SODIMM are even numbered. Pin 38 and pin 40 are connected together as you can see by them leading to the same via (hole) in the board. Those two pins are GROUND pins. Pins 36 and 34 are similarly connected together. Those pins are VDD or power pins. If there is any contamination between pins 36 and 38, which may be indicated by the picture, you would have the possibility of shorting power to ground. Not a good thing. Can lead to a blown fuse (worst case) or the module not being recognized. Could also result in unreliable performance as the power supply is drawing too much current.

It might be possible to remove the contamination with isopropyl alcohol. If what we're actually seeing is a loss of copper trace on the board, then it still should work since pin 40 still looks okay. The reason why adjacent traces are connected together is usually due to the amount of current (power) being consumed by the module. The loss of a single ground pin (there are about 33 ground pins on a 200 pin SODIMM) could possibly affect the memory chips connected to those ground pins. This would typically show itself as random memory failures.

There should be NO visible contamination between any adjacent pins, especially pins 36 and 38.

I can't comment on the USB port as the traces inside the connector are not visible, nor are the places where it's soldered down to the motherboard.

edit: Sorry, I forgot to reference the SODIMM pinout. A Micron document is here:

Design Reference Specification

SafeHarbor · #9 Post by **SafeHarbor** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:48 pm

So what, pray tell, are they proposing to DO for $935?

Eric Giles · #10 Post by **Eric Giles** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:26 pm

SafeHarbor wrote:So what, pray tell, are they proposing to DO for $935?

Best I can guess, replace the system board. Needless to say, they won't get it from me.

Stargate199 · #11 Post by **Stargate199** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:15 pm

By looking at your pics of the mainboard, there appears to be significant corrosion. Could be liquid damage, but sort of doubt it. It looks like the metal has reacted to some element (probably nickel, zinc or copper) in a very negative way. Possibly with the use of rubbing alcohol, water, a toothbrush, and good drying towel, it may be possible to get rid of that corrosion. You should be careful and not damaging any of the other working parts. For the RAM chip, replace it. I would not attempt to repair it as it could be damaged to the point where it would cause your system harm if you are able to get it to work again.

Eric Giles · #12 Post by **Eric Giles** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:05 pm

Another update-I responded to IBM once again disputing their claim. I was directed to the head person in charge of repairs, and she listened to what I had to say-but in the end basically IBM is denying my claim. They gave me another 800 to escalate my case further, but even getting thru to the right person is becoming a hassle.

This is becoming ridiculous.

jsteele · #13 Post by **jsteele** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:43 pm

Eric:

I've seen this movie before. Actually I saw the movie and the play and I read the book. You will end up sending the famous "note to Sam" before this is all over.

I sympathize with you as I've been down the "liquid spill" route myself. And this afternoon DHL picked up my T42p headed for EasyServ so I may be down that road again with you.

Eric Giles · #14 Post by **Eric Giles** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:57 pm

jsteele wrote:Eric:

I've seen this movie before. Actually I saw the movie and the play and I read the book. You will end up sending the famous "note to Sam" before this is all over.

I sympathize with you as I've been down the "liquid spill" route myself. And this afternoon DHL picked up my T42p headed for EasyServ so I may be down that road again with you.

If you have that email address for 'Sam', may I have it too please? I just got off the phone with them after escalating it again-and no dice. All levels are denying my dispute. They are shipping it back out to me today. I did tell them I wanted my machine properly reassembled with no missing screws or parts as I have heard the horror stories here, and I at least wanted it back in the same shape I sent it in.

The one good thing about this is-my employer will buy me a new unit of my choice. It's just I know I did not spill anything into my T40, and it seriously irritates me that they claim I did.

This very, very loyal Thinkpad user has just lost a LOT of respect for the company.

#15 Post by **BillMorrow** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:25 pm

read the post i just made..
which i wrote BEFORE i read this post..

IMO (not a humble opinion, either!) is SOLECTRON sucks..
plain and simple..
they try to make $$ by finding spurious "damage"..
I say take them to court..
i'm pretty sure that venue would run locally to the customer as the agent for solectron (i.e. fedex) picked up the thinkpad at your door..
set a value on the failure to make the repair and go to small claims court..

while i have never experienced this myself, several customers DID..

jsteele · #16 Post by **jsteele** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:12 pm

My T42p came back yesterday Tuesday) from EasyServ. To say that I was surpised is an understatement. No cri4es of "liquid spill", no hassles, nothing broken after the repair. They replaced my systemboard and keyboard and everything appears fine after 24 hours,

Eric Giles · #17 Post by **Eric Giles** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:22 pm

Ok guys, stick with me-this might be a long post.

So today my T40 arrived back from Solectron. I had informed them that I wanted my laptop fully re-assembled-properly!-before it was sent back to me. Well, it was but-the small crack in the plastic by the cursor keys? It was now fully broken, with a decent chunk of plastic missing. Now I can sorta understand that if there is a crack there that pulling it apart might make it worse-but honestly, don't you think that since it is under warranty they should fix THEIR mistakes?

Everything powered on and worked properly as it did before I sent it off, so at least that is a plus. I decided to call EZServe and tell them about the broken palmrest. I actually got some helpful people on the phone, and they are overnighting me a new palmrest and keyboard. I specifically requested that they ship the new parts to me and I install them, as there was no way I was sending it back to that laptop hell known as Solectron. So, at least one point for IBM in sending me some new parts.

So when I got home from work, I decided to disassemble everything to install an 802.11b/g card and a 512MB DIMM I recently purchased from a member on this board. Well everyone can see the pics I posted up above of the supposed 'liquid spill' damage that Selectron took, so I was interested to see what I can find myself.

First thing was the DIMM that has a red arrow showing 'corrosion'. The red sticker was still there, so upon examination it was just as I thought-there was NO corrosion on the DIMM, it was the copper contact on that trace was worn off! Why it had worn off, I have no idea-I did not originally install it and I had never uninstalled it since I have owned the unit, but it is obvious to anyone the trace is slightly missing due to insertion or something to that effect. Certainly not from a 'liquid spill'.

In order to fix my loose AC adapter jack, I had to remove the LCD panel assembly. Once I removed it, I found the other spot of corrosion that is in the other two pictures above. It's a VERY small spot, and only in that one square shaped area. Then it hit me-that is the area that is covered by the metal/aluminum hinge of the LCD assembly! Sure enough, on the bottom part of the metal hinge was a bit of the same corrosion. It was not to be found anywhere else close to that area-but ONLY where the steel/aluminum hinge and was in direct, almost sealed contact with the magnesium base/rollcage below it.

Now I am not a engineer by any means, but I am very aware of corrosion caused by dissimilar metals being put together. This is clearly a case where this has happened. I am telling you, IBM/Selectron is trying to find everything they can to keep from paying out on warranty claims.

By the way, the hinge design on the right side of the laptop is different, but there is still the same dissimilar metal contact there too-and sure enough, a very very slight amount in the area where they were in contact.

So, now I am [censored] and more determined than ever. Sure, I received a brand new T60p 8744-C9U yesterday replacing the T40, but honestly-I think I like using the T40 better. I want my baby fixed under warranty! So, if anyone has "Sam's" e-mail address or contact information, please send it to me so I can get the ball rolling on this.

I will make sure I win this 'fight' regardless of what it takes.

#18 Post by **rkawakami** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:56 pm

Eric Giles wrote:The red sticker was still there, so upon examination it was just as I thought-there was NO corrosion on the DIMM, it was the copper contact on that trace was worn off! Why it had worn off, I have no idea-I did not originally install it and I had never uninstalled it since I have owned the unit, but it is obvious to anyone the trace is slightly missing due to insertion or something to that effect. Certainly not from a 'liquid spill'.

As I had said in my post from the 8th, that particular pin is a ground pin. The trace to the left should be able to carry the load since it is also a ground pin. Somebody could have been "ham-fisted" in either installing or removing the module which could have led to the separation of the copper trace. I would examine the socket to see if there is any matching corrosion or damage on that pin.

Eric Giles · #19 Post by **Eric Giles** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:00 pm

rkawakami wrote:
Eric Giles wrote:The red sticker was still there, so upon examination it was just as I thought-there was NO corrosion on the DIMM, it was the copper contact on that trace was worn off! Why it had worn off, I have no idea-I did not originally install it and I had never uninstalled it since I have owned the unit, but it is obvious to anyone the trace is slightly missing due to insertion or something to that effect. Certainly not from a 'liquid spill'.
As I had said in my post from the 8th, that particular pin is a ground pin. The trace to the left should be able to carry the load since it is also a ground pin. Somebody could have been "ham-fisted" in either installing or removing the module which could have led to the separation of the copper trace. I would examine the socket to see if there is any matching corrosion or damage on that pin.

Nope, no corrosion on the DIMM socket at all that I can see.

Eric Giles · #20 Post by **Eric Giles** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:07 am

Just another update-I sent the e-mail to Sam and received a call yesterday from someone in executive relations. Although they are not promising anything, he is sending me a box to have it sent to their center in Raleigh, NC to get a second opinion on the situation.

ms · #21 Post by ms » Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:29 am

I cross my fingers eric, good luck this time. Good that you are not dependend on your T40, makes it easier for you

#22 Post by **BillMorrow** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:07 am

i think i need to add some new smilies..
well, smilies that are glaring, flaming and just plain furious..
which i just now did, in honor of this thread..!
and here he is:

solectron keeps doing it..
screwing with the customers..
this is sunday the 18th and i went to a small party tonight..
i was asked by one of the guests (an 80 year old man who drives a 2005 porsche carrera) what the best laptop and desktop computers were..
i told him h/p and thinkpads and he gave me a "look"..
i explained that aside from brand and who makes them, support was a major part of what you buy and i had to bite my tongue a little, knowing that solectron is so, well, screwed up..
it only takes one smelly deal to make everyone leave the room..

it might be said that with all the scammers out in etherland they (solectron and lenovo/ibm) must be a prime target for fraud when liquid IS actially spilt on a thinkpad..

but all the cases i have seen are like eric's..
a real reach.. not credible.. but when the judge and jury have something to gain from convicting the hapless customer and nothing at all to lose......

you get my drift..?
if this is not exactly what goes on in memphis it sure appears that this is what happens and appearances are EVERYTHING in this sort of situation..

egibbs · #23 Post by **egibbs** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:52 am

Hey Bill - Since you mentioned HP, do you know who handles HP's service?

If it's not Solectron I may defect when it's time to replace the T42p. As much as I love TPs I also have a soft spot for HP (the old HP - now Agilent).

Ed Gibbs

Eric Giles · #24 Post by **Eric Giles** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:07 pm

It's been a few weeks since I last gave an update, so here goes. Lenovo executive relations sent me another box to have my T40 shipped to their facility in Raleigh so they could take another look at the issue. After it arrived, they did find a couple of spots of corrosion on a few pins of the docking connector and sent me the pictures. Although I still have no idea how that could have happened, I was in complete agreement with them this time as they had shown proof of the corrosion, and I was satisfied with that. I apologized for the hassle I had caused and asked them to send my T40 back to me unrepaired. Case closed, right? Not quite....

Ok, I had written up the rest of the story about what had happened, but I have removed it due to an agreement I signed with Lenovo. I honestly don't want it to sound shady at all, I just don't want to break my written agreement with them. Let's just say my T40 went AWOL, and Lenovo offered me a replacement that I am very, very pleased with!

One thing is for sure-you can say what you want about Selectron, but the executive relations people at Lenovo are top notch, and they are definitely there to take care of us.

So this concludes this saga-it ended with a definite twist, but in the end I am more than happy.

Stargate199 · #25 Post by **Stargate199** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:24 pm

BillMorrow wrote:i think i need to add some new smilies..
well, smilies that are glaring, flaming and just plain furious..
which i just now did, in honor of this thread..!
and here he is:

I don't use the smilies very often, but I like the new ones you picked out Bill.

. I should figure out what post I can use the bouncing bird.

#26 Post by **K. Eng** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:27 pm

I guess this all calls for a celebration!

Temetka · #27 Post by **Temetka** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:28 am

So all we have to now is bribe the DHL guy to lose the laptop?

Hmm...

The T41p is going in for keyboard and (possbile) LCD replacement. Something to consider....

Actually I am including a letter with the laptop:

Dear Lenovo,

I bought the laptop 2 months ago. It has sat on my desk or table next to my chair in the living room that whole time. It is here for:

1. Keyboard replacement - Please re-install the soft dome trackpoint cap.
2. LCD replacement- I have provided pics showing the stress mark and blue pixel. It can only be seen when the LCD is off.

Lets get this clear:

Your company refurbished it.
Then sold it to a reseller, where it sat in a box until sold.
I bought it.
It has been very well taken care of.

It has never in it's life come near any form of liquid. Do not contact me regarding a liquid spill. I would really hate to escalate a job that should take no more than 1 hour to complete.

Your cooperation is appreciated.

****************

I wonder what their reaction will be?

Eric Giles · #28 Post by **Eric Giles** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:57 am

If you are seriously going to include this letter, I don't think that is a good idea. Immediately going on the 'offensive' before they have even looked at the unit will definitely not help your situation-heck, I could see it making something worse-and nothing has even happened.

Just give them a chance to fix it-more than likely, that is exactly what will happen with no problems at all.

#29 Post by **Kyocera** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:03 pm

Temetka, all due respect to you, that letter probably won't put your case on the front burner. Sometimes begging and groveling will get you further along dealing with technical repair organizations, I work for one. You need to either escalate to a higher level or grovel.

Website · #30 Post by **tfflivemb2** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:56 pm

I agree with Mike and Eric on this one...the letter will likely cause more problems than preventing any.

FYI: Make sure that the pixel thing is within their criteria for replacement.

Possibly another EZServ ordeal in the making PICS-RESOLVED

Possibly another EZServ ordeal in the making PICS-RESOLVED

Re: Possibly another EZServ ordeal in the making

Who is online