Pretty much had it with Lenovo

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zhenya · #1 Post by **zhenya** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:32 am

This morning I've finally reached my boiling point in what has been up to now a patient, friendly dealing with Lenovo and their tech support regarding the lemon of a z60t they sold me last year. I've documented my numerous problems with this machine in this forum before, but a brief recap to show where I'm at:

- Hard disk replaced after 1 day with new machine
- ultra bay battery replaced after losing 50% capacity in 3 months
- motherboard replaced as an attempt to fix hibernate/standby problem (we'll come back to this, as it's the main issue)
- lcd/inverter replaced for enormous number of dead/dying pixels
- main battery replaced after suddenly dying completely while I was on an extended project in rural SE Asia.
- now scheduled to replace keyboard as next step in troubleshooting hibernate issue.

Which brings me up to today when I called in to tech support because I'd finally traced the problem where System Update does not recognize the machine to the mainboard replacement. Customer service agent told me flatly that in order to fix this problem the machine would have to be sent in for service because they do not let the update disk out of the company. As well as the fact that my extended on-site warranty doesn't cover software issues! Nevermind that this issue was caused by a HARDWARE replacement!! I finally lost my patience and hung up without trying to escalate the call further. I have spent hours and hours of my time now dealing with this lemon, they have not yet fixed the main problem (turns on from hibernate or sleep during handling) and they do not consider it to be a serious issue, despite the fact that it affects my use of the machine every day. As the IT buyer for our company who has been migrating our systems from Dell to Lenovo, I'm just about at the point of reversing that plan.

Thanks for a place to vent.

dsalyers · #2 Post by **dsalyers** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:11 pm

Sorry to hear about your problems. I know this is probably a stupid questions, but have you asked for a replacement outright. You may want to ask for a T-series as is seems there are very limited availability on the z-series.

zhenya · #3 Post by **zhenya** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:39 pm

Not a stupid question at all. Last month when I called to schedule the repair for the battery and the lcd and was informed that those repairs would be a month out, and continued to offer no solution for the hibernate problem, I escalated the case and did mention that I was now looking for a replacement machine.

At this point I appear to have hit the top of the escalation chain (that I can get to anyhow) and after speaking to a senior tech, they are going to replace the keyboard before moving to the next step. The tech indicated that the next step after that would most likely involve sending the machine in (!!) before they would even consider replacing it. My escalation manager did mention casually that Lenovo did not consider this problem as one that would warrant a replacement.

On the positive side, the replacement lcd is orders of magnitude better than the old one, and is among the best I've seen...

dsalyers · #4 Post by **dsalyers** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:27 pm

wow, that really sucks. Okay, now, I am sure you have talked to techs all over the place, but have you actually been escalated to their customer resolution team (or whatever it is called)?

I ask this because, I ran into a problem when I ordered a Z61p. Basically, when I ordered it, they said 5 to 7 business to ship. Well, it ended up taking a little over 2 months. When it arrived it had a flaw with the LCD screen. Not a huge flaw, but it was a brand new machine that I had waited 2 months for.

Basically, when I called tech support and sales about the problem, the only response I got was that I could send it in for repair. I didn't want to do because the machine was useable, and I needed it in a couple of days. I wanted them to ship me a new and when I received that one, I would send back my first one. They said that they couldn't do that.

Well, I ended up getting a hold of a customer service person who was able to do exactly that. There was no hassle. I asked why I wasn't offered this by the other two groups, and her response was that they didn't have the ability to do this.

So, if you have not been talking to customer support group you may want to see if you can get it escalated there, as they seem to have much more ability to actually help.

zhenya · #5 Post by **zhenya** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:21 pm

Hmm, I'm not positive who I've been talking to, but I know it is in Atlanta, and I believe it to be the customer support group. I believe the escalation manager I've been speaking to has the power to decide to replace my machine, but she needs to have word that it's neccesary from her techs, who seem to want me to send it in to see the problem for themselves. Usually if there is a person higher up in the chain, it's not too hard to get to. Now everyone I talk to says I'm at the top and there is nowhere else to go. In fact, when my escalation manager didn't return my calls for 10 days, they told me I had no other options than dealing with her which meant waiting for her to return my call.

snife · #6 Post by **snife** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:49 pm

Dunno about your hibernation thing, have you checked that timer wake on battery operation is disabled in BIOS (default)? I've dealt with a lot of ThinkPads and have never seen a keyboard cause such an issue.

The ultrabay battery thing is somewhat of an issue which sony are currently investigating to find out the cause, it seems like if the battery is discharged quickly, it causes a mismatch with the reported capacity.

Other than that you did just get a lemon, its certainly not the norm for ThinkPads, but its worth remembering that most failures occur in the first 3 months (of a 3 year period of ownership anyway) so if you can get them fixed you might be better keeping it just in case your unlucky again.

zhenya · #7 Post by **zhenya** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:14 pm

Thanks for the suggestions. Yes, the Timer wake with battery operation is disabled. I've been through the troubleshooting process several times with various reps who are all convinced it must be a software issue. It does really appear to be a hardware problem where the power button is being triggered during normal handling. The funny thing is it never happens if the machine is 'shut down' only when it is in hibernate or sleep mode. I don't know if the switch is more sensitive in those modes, or what. The typical scenario is that I've put it into hibernate mode, waited for it to finish, then pick up the closed laptop to slip it into its padded sleeve for transport. During the handling of putting it away, I'll hear it beep and hear the fans come on. I then have to open it back up, boot back into windows, hibernate again, then remember to pull the batteries out before packing it up again.
Replacing the keyboard seems to be the next thing that the techs are throwing out there as a long shot solution to a problem that has them totally stumped.

I would be happy to keep this machine, especially as it has been largely fixed, and the screen looks great now. However, as long as this one issue remains, I view the machine as broken, and non-functional for how I need to use it. Truthfully, running Vista now as a 2nd OS, its speedy sleep function would be great to use when running between the office and home, but I'm completely unable to use sleep/standby because of this issue. Overall, I'm actually quite pleased with Lenovo's tech support. I generally talk to polite, fairly knowledgeable techs who speak english natively, and through all these problems they've never hesitated to send out a replacement part, often without even running me through the hours of diagnostics that Dell requires before releasing a part. However their failure to genuinely deal with this hibernate issue has me to the breaking point. They need to fully accept that there is a problem they can't reasonably fix, and offer me a replacement. It's unacceptable to keep throwing parts at it hoping it will fix it, because every time that happens, it's another couple hours of my time.

#8 Post by **GomJabbar** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 7:50 pm

Are you sure it is actually going into Hibernation and not into Standby? Do you see the screen: "Resuming from Hibernation" when the ThinkPad comes back on? If not, I suspect you are actually in Standby mode and not in Hibernation.

zhenya · #9 Post by **zhenya** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 8:55 pm

oh yeah, I'm absolutely certain it's going into hibernation. I had to apply the Windows patch when I upgraded to 2gb ram and am well versed in the differences between the two modes. As I mentioned above, one of my methods of working around the problem is to remove the batteries when in hibernation. That doesn't work so well in standby.

cj3209 · #10 Post by **cj3209** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:41 pm

It's not a faulty RAM issue is it? I use a Z61t and it's been faultless so far.

CJ

#11 Post by **GomJabbar** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:21 am

zhenya wrote:oh yeah, I'm absolutely certain it's going into hibernation.

Well if I had to guess, it is probably creating the Hibernation file and going into Hibernation, but it is not powering down the systems like it should. If a replacement motherboard did not fix the issue, this would almost indicate that software is causing your problem. The only definitive way to test this would be to do a fresh install of the Operating System, preferrably by booting into Rescue and Recovery and choosing to Restore Factory Contents or by using the Product Recovery Discs. Do not add or upgrade any of the software, and carry it around for a few days to see if the Hibernation issue remains. It's up to you, but it may be worthwhile buying a second spare hard drive for this task, then you can use it for other things once the test is completed. New notebook hard drives can be had for as little as $50, and used ones for somewhat less.

This is my 2 cents worth on your perplexing problem. It's up to you whether you think this avenue is worth pursuing. It still might not lead to a solution.

Here is some information on power states:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acpi

zhenya · #12 Post by **zhenya** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:14 am

Well if I had to guess, it is probably creating the Hibernation file and going into Hibernation, but it is not powering down the systems like it should. If a replacement motherboard did not fix the issue, this would almost indicate that software is causing your problem.

Thanks for the suggestions. I don't know how much more definitive I can get than putting it into hibernate, and removing the battery? If it was not going into full hibernate, I would have data loss when I resumed my session (in fact, it would not re-boot into my saved session at all). Additionally, if this were a software issue, it would seem that it would occur while in these modes and stationary on my desk, when in fact this problem only occurs during handling. It can sit on my desk in standby or hibernate mode for days and never be triggered on.

The only definitive way to test this would be to do a fresh install of the Operating System, preferrably by booting into Rescue and Recovery and choosing to Restore Factory Contents or by using the Product Recovery Discs. Do not add or upgrade any of the software, and carry it around for a few days to see if the Hibernation issue remains.

I have actually done this twice in recent months. In early December I did a fresh factory install of XP with no change to the problem. Two weeks ago I did a fresh install of Vista which I run from a second drive in the ultrabay. The Vista install ran completely bare for more than a week and also exhibited the same issue. I've also run Vista up until yesterday without any of the Thinkvantage programs installed. (It's rather a pain without system update, which no longer works because of my replaced mainboard). Yesterday I finally installed a few of them, including their power management software manually.

zhenya · #13 Post by **zhenya** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:17 am

cj3209 wrote:It's not a faulty RAM issue is it? I use a Z61t and it's been faultless so far.

I'm not sure how faulty RAM would manifest itself in this way, without any other signs of trouble. When in hibernation the machine is effectively powered off. If the RAM was having troubles, it seems to me it would show up while suspending or resuming. I'm glad to listen to other theories though!

#14 Post by **gator** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:30 pm

I am sorry to hear so many issues on a new thinkpad, and I hope things get back to normal soon. I do agree that changing keyboards is probably not going to work, but then, it doesn't hurt to try. If I were you, I'd try what GomJabbar suggests - go back to factory fresh state and check things for a couple of days without installing s/w other than what is absolutely necessary.

If you want to try things out on a different drive, I have a spare 5400 rpm drive that I am not using at the moment. Let me know if you want to purchase.

Chonsk · #15 Post by **Chonsk** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:15 am

zhenya, can this have anything to do with your handling problems?

http://www.lenovoblogs.com/insidethebox/?p=55

RUSH2112 · #16 Post by **RUSH2112** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:13 pm

Aren't there specific laws against lemons....something like if you have it repaired 3 times, its considered a lemon and they HAVE to replace it?

zhenya · #17 Post by **zhenya** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:39 pm

gator wrote:I am sorry to hear so many issues on a new thinkpad, and I hope things get back to normal soon. I do agree that changing keyboards is probably not going to work, but then, it doesn't hurt to try. If I were you, I'd try what GomJabbar suggests - go back to factory fresh state and check things for a couple of days without installing s/w other than what is absolutely necessary.

If you want to try things out on a different drive, I have a spare 5400 rpm drive that I am not using at the moment. Let me know if you want to purchase.

Yeah, I don't expect it will work either. As I mentioned above, I've already tried this twice with a spare drive I have. Thanks for the offer though.

zhenya · #18 Post by **zhenya** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:44 pm

Chonsk wrote:zhenya, can this have anything to do with your handling problems?

http://www.lenovoblogs.com/insidethebox/?p=55

I don't think so, as tech support has already been through that. I've tried disabling the Active Protection in Windows and the Timer Wake with battery option in the BIOS. I know of no other place to disable it.

Interesting use of the accelerometers though! Probably not so good for the hard disk!

zhenya · #19 Post by **zhenya** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:47 pm

RUSH2112 wrote:Aren't there specific laws against lemons....something like if you have it repaired 3 times, its considered a lemon and they HAVE to replace it?

I'm really not sure of the specifics of the lemon law, or if it applies to consumer electronics. Anyhow, I'm ready to get a bit more forceful about getting a replacement. Today I couldn't even pick the thing up gently as could be without it coming on. I even turned it off by force, and it still kept coming back on from a hard off while sitting still on my desk. I had to pull the battery before I could put it in my bag. arrrggghhh!

I_Am_Banana · #20 Post by **I_Am_Banana** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:47 am

This isnt exactly a fix... but what happens if you disable hibernate in your OS? Not saying this as a solution, I'm just wondering if it gives you this same problem if you only use standby...

I'm willing to bet money that it is not your keyboard, but still a problem with the system board. Did you just send it in to get the original motherboard replaced? If they didnt find anything apparent wrong (or if a reinstall of the OS temporarily fixed it) then they might have left the same system board in it and returned it. In all reality, even if they did install a new system board it could have been defective in the same way. My college uses HP and some of our tablets have had this issue with hibernation... almost ALWAYS the system board.

gotconsultants · #21 Post by **gotconsultants** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:18 am

I live in the San Francisco Bay Area... ie not too far from Silicon Valley... This is how bad the techs are for QualixServer (IBM outsourced technicians)...

The technician placed a CPU pin-side down on a copper heat sink with no anti static protection.

This one blew my mind....

#22 Post by **rkawakami** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:19 am

gotconsultants wrote:This one blew my mind....

Merely putting a CPU on top of a copper heat sink (Cu, being an excellent conductor of electricity), is probably just very slightly less safe than putting the entire CPU inside a static bag. That the pins were down, is better than if they were sticking up and prone to being touched by a passing electrical discharge. Yes, you should always practice safe static techniques (using a ground strap, placing parts inside conductive bags, etc.) when working on computer equipment.

That said, in all my years (30+) of handling CMOS components I think I may have blown two or three parts. This happened in the early days of CMOS design (4000-series logic ICs) when the pins did not have the input protection circuits that they do now.

Today, I NEVER use a static strap when handling memory modules or disassembling a laptop (at work or at home). I DO take the time to discharge myself (ew, that sounds yucky!) when I'm working on a system and am very conscious of sliding around on the chair when I work at my desk. I guess this is a case of "do as I say" and not "do as I do". But given what I know about IC designs, I feel pretty safe in operating the way I have for years.

gotconsultants · #23 Post by **gotconsultants** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:43 pm

I agree totally, I have been doing this for many years as well... One difference between you me, and the techs are the many years experience that we have. You would think that QualixServ would at least provide their techs with some basic protection (anti-static bags, anti-static mat).

I should have filled in more details... Non-grounded table, and with the laptop in pieces, it is a little hard to ground yourself.

The other problem that I had with the techs were that they were always in a rush and not paying any attention to details. They broke a few pieces putting the system back together as well as stripping at least one screw.

[/quote]

Kruskal · #24 Post by **Kruskal** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:32 am

zhenya wrote:oh yeah, I'm absolutely certain it's going into hibernation. I had to apply the Windows patch when I upgraded to 2gb ram and am well versed in the differences between the two modes. As I mentioned above, one of my methods of working around the problem is to remove the batteries when in hibernation. That doesn't work so well in standby.

Can you tell me where to find that patch. I'm also having hybernation problems at 1.5 GB on a ThinkPad T43.

Thanks -- Vincent

Pretty much had it with Lenovo

Pretty much had it with Lenovo

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