AC Power Problems On Thinkpad Z-Series Notebooks

[gotconsultants]

Anyone who has had problems please contact me though a private message or document your problems in this thread. I am working on a package to get your problems resolved.

Thanks in advance...

[barrywohl]

You have a private message. I've put some work into this in the last few days. I'm pretty much convinced it is pure hardware not software.
I've tried two different hard drives with different Windows XP configurations; one bare bones, generic drivers, minimal configuration and one fully updated and all the Z61p custom drivers and software. Problem no different with two different configurations.
I've tried four different AC adapters, three of "6" revision and one of "G" revision. No difference.
I've updated bios, power management driver, power manager and no difference.
I've "reset" the power circuit by removing ac and battery power and draining the capacitors with ten on/off cycles and then 30 seconds of holding down power switch. No help.
I can't wait to hear your insight into this.
I have a pickup scheduled for 03/12/07 to send my unit to EasyServ but I'm not sure they'll know how to fix it if it is intermittent. No PC Doctor DOS or PC Doctor Windows errors.
Barry

[Ken Fox]

Anyone who has had problems please contact me though a private message or document your problems in this thread. I am working on a package to get your problems resolved.

Thanks in advance...

Which models in the series have purportedly had problems? People talk about the Z series as though it is homogeneous, but in reality the models in that series are probably the least similar to each other than in any other series.

I don't think that there is much in common, hardware or mobo wise between a Z61m and a Z61T, for example.

[gotconsultants]

It seems to be accross all the models... Z61m, Z61t and the Z61p... I have users on all 3 that have complained...

Rob

[Ken Fox]

It seems to be accross all the models... Z61m, Z61t and the Z61p... I have users on all 3 that have complained...

Rob

And if the hardware and form factors and mobos and discrete video chips vs. integrated, and all that other stuff are DIFFERENT, how exactly do you explain that? And who are these "users" that "you have?"

[GomJabbar]

Could someone elaborate on "AC Power Problems"? What sort of problems?

[Bob34]

Could someone elaborate on "AC Power Problems"? What sort of problems?

I've had one issue, only once. I was resuming from hibernation, booting up, I plugged in my AC adapter, shortly unplugged it (from the back), and my computer shut off.

Battery was greater than 50%

[barrywohl]

Could someone elaborate on "AC Power Problems"? What sort of problems?

My Z61p runs fine on battery. It runs fine on the AC adapter. It switches fine from AC adapter to battery. HOWEVER, sometimes, when I have it running on battery and I switch it to AC adapter it freezes.

This freeze seems hardware based. It doesn't matter if I use a SLIM or fully configured Windows XP Pro OS. It doesn't matter which version of bios, power manager driver or power management software. It happened from the first day I put the computer into service three weeks ago. It happens either at my home or at my office.

[Ken Fox]

Could someone elaborate on "AC Power Problems"? What sort of problems?

My Z61p runs fine on battery. It runs fine on the AC adapter. It switches fine from AC adapter to battery. HOWEVER, sometimes, when I have it running on battery and I switch it to AC adapter it freezes.

If the machine is less than 30 days old and you have an unresolved hardware problem you may be able to get lenovo to replace the unit. Key to this is good documentation that you have tried to resolve the problems with their tech support. Each problem is assigned a "case number" or somesuch and if you accumulate at least several of them you are on firm ground to request a replacement unit.

If you let the time slip to beyond 30 days they will in general not take it back.

[barrywohl]

If the machine is less than 30 days old and you have an unresolved hardware problem you may be able to get lenovo to replace the unit. Key to this is good documentation that you have tried to resolve the problems with their tech support. Each problem is assigned a "case number" or somesuch and if you accumulate at least several of them you are on firm ground to request a replacement unit.

If you let the time slip to beyond 30 days they will in general not take it back.

My machine shipped to me February 12th, 2007. I first opened it and started to set it up on February 22, 2007. I was waiting to see if a Vista Preinstall would come out and I hoped to exchange it for the Vista Preinstall version. Instead, the Z61p went away.

I called first about this problem on February 27th, 2007. Since then, I've got three calls, lots of advice and my pickup for return scheduled for March 12th.

On March 5, EasyServ told me to exchange it for a new Z61p and I followed the phone tree on Lenovo to do that. I was at 21 days from shipment at that point. Lenovo said I could not get a replacement Z61p from them since it was gone from the supply chain and I could get eitheer full credit towards a similar Z or T or I could send it to EasyServ for repair, but I had to decide by 7 pm EST that day.

Well, there are currently no WUXGA or UXGA ThinkPads, and I've grown accustomed to 1600x1200 during the last six years (A21p and R50p). So I opted to go the repair hardware or software route. At that time, March 5th, 2007, I was still hoping it was a software thing.

Since then, I've done more trouble shooting and it seems to be a hardware design issue. I don't think I can fix it through software and I am now worried (because of information gathered on this forum, and the experience shared with me from two forum members) that EasyServ will fail to fix it.

The best outcome for me would be my Z61p fixed on the first trip.
The second best outcome for me would be full credit towards a future T6xp with WUXGA.
The third best outcome for me would be full credit towards a current T60p widescreen WSXGA+, but that's not really what I want or I would have ordered that when I was placing my order.

Anyway, 30 days expires on March 14th, 2007. 21 days expired on March 5. I have a sick feeling that I'll be stuck with a machine with a serious defect for my application and no path to repair or replace without me losing a chunk of change.

I bought this unit with top of the line processor/ram/ThinkPad Protection (4 years), because I was hoping it would be my ThinkPad companion until 2011. I also bought oodles of Lenovo accessories (extra battery and charger, port replicator, keyboard, extra SATA drive and drive bay, ultrabay battery. Most of these will work fine on the T60 if I go that route.

Although a WUXGA or UXGA hybris IPS-TFT screen in this configuration would have been ideal for me, the truth is that this Z61p, repaired, would suit my needs better than any currently available Lenovo ThinkPad offering. I like everything else about the machine. Although, side by side with my R50p IPS-TFT 1600x1200, I can detect a difference, the WUXGA screen on the Z61p is terrific for my needs.

Needless to say, I do have good documentation.

Barry

[barrywohl]

Has anyone had this problem of freeze up on connecting AC power AND had EasyServ successfully resolve the issue by a depot repair?

That's my next step.

[Ken Fox]

My machine shipped to me February 12th, 2007. I first opened it and started to set it up on February 22, 2007. I was waiting to see if a Vista Preinstall would come out and I hoped to exchange it for the Vista Preinstall version. Instead, the Z61p went away.

I called first about this problem on February 27th, 2007. Since then, I've got three calls, lots of advice and my pickup for return scheduled for March 12th.

On March 5, EasyServ told me to exchange it for a new Z61p

Well, there are currently no WUXGA or UXGA ThinkPads,
I bought this unit with top of the line processor/ram/ThinkPad Protection (4 years), because I was hoping it would be my ThinkPad companion until 2011. I also bought oodles of Lenovo accessories (extra battery and charger, port replicator, keyboard, extra SATA drive and drive bay, ultrabay battery. Most of these will work fine on the T60 if I go that route.

Although a WUXGA or UXGA hybris IPS-TFT screen in this configuration would have been ideal for me, the truth is that this Z61p, repaired, would suit my needs better than any currently available Lenovo ThinkPad offering.

Needless to say, I do have good documentation.

Barry

(some snipping for brevity and to avoid mod irritation)

As you have said, most of the accessories will work fine on another model. You could ebay those items that won't. I have recently ebayed a brand new never used 8 cell Z61t battery and got back 90% or so of what I paid for it, and you could do that with any accessories that you won't be able to use on another model.

If I were you, I'd take Lenovo up on their offer to give you a full refund. You should get back everything including any sales tax you paid. This is what I got when I returned/exchanged my overly hot X60 for an identical model which is much better.

I'd call them back, say I changed my mind, and please pick the machine up. Granted, they might fix it but easyserv doesn't have the best reputation here and maybe they will accuse you of being responsible for a liquid spill or god knows what.

Good luck.

[barrywohl]

[I'd call them back, say I changed my mind, and please pick the machine up. Granted, they might fix it but easyserv doesn't have the best reputation here and maybe they will accuse you of being responsible for a liquid spill or god knows what.

There are two problems with that advice. (1) My first choice really is a properly functioning Z61p WUXGA. (2) My AUTOMATIC exchange privilege expired 03/05/07, so I think I will have a better chance getting a full refund/full credit if I give EasyServ one crack at fixing it. In fact, that's what EasyServ told me yesterday.

My experience with EasyServ has been better than yours. I'm not sure they'll fix this one, but in general they've solved my problems.

The liquid spill should not be an issue since I paid $379 extra for four years of warranty WITH ThinkPad Protection, and since there has been no liquid spill or abuse and this problem existed fresh out of the box.

If the website showed a WUXGA or UXGA T60/T61 today, it would be an easier decision.

Thanks for the advice though. I just wonder if this fixable.

By the way, I updated System Update today and then did two critical updates including Ingel Chipset update "Intel Chipset Suport 5 for Windows 2000/xp/vista
Version 8.1.1.1010".

Still hoping but no joy.

I suspect something just needs to be tweaked on the planar board to not detects some voltage transient with plugging in AC or that the system design is defective in not filtering out such a transient.

[gotconsultants]

I am well aware that the the Z6xt, Z6xm, and Z6xp all have different hardware on the inside, but they do carry similar features and use parts which are the same. Quite a few users have contacted me privately through e-mail from this board as well as from the INQ and I am trying to gather some facts together to write a story on the issue. There is a reason that Lenovo is phasing out the Z-Series, other than marketing reasons.

If I had a clear cut answer on what exactly was going on I would be more specific. On the Z61m, it seems to be a system lockup when an AC Adapter is plugged in. On the Z61p/t, I have had users contact me concerning overheating and shutdowns when it is on AC Power although adequately cooled. I have been personally been stonewalled by Lenovo (technical support, executive relations, and the media relations departments), and basically been told to "send my notebook in for replacement". It seems there is more of an issue than what is being told to users.

[barrywohl]

On the Z61m, it seems to be a system lockup when an AC Adapter is plugged in. On the Z61p/t, I have had users contact me concerning overheating and shutdowns when it is on AC Power although adequately cooled.

My Z61p has exactly the same problem as your Z61m, lockup when the AC adapter is plugged in. I have no overheating or shutdowns when running overnight on ac power.

Rob, have you EVER heard of Lenovo/IBM/EasyServ satisfying a customer by fixing the lock-up on connecting ac power?

[Ken Fox]

I am well aware that the the Z6xt, Z6xm, and Z6xp all have different hardware on the inside, but they do carry similar features and use parts which are the same. Quite a few users have contacted me privately through e-mail from this board as well as from the INQ and I am trying to gather some facts together to write a story on the issue. There is a reason that Lenovo is phasing out the Z-Series, other than marketing reasons.

If I had a clear cut answer on what exactly was going on I would be more specific. On the Z61m, it seems to be a system lockup when an AC Adapter is plugged in. On the Z61p/t, I have had users contact me concerning overheating and shutdowns when it is on AC Power although adequately cooled. I have been personally been stonewalled by Lenovo (technical support, executive relations, and the media relations departments), and basically been told to "send my notebook in for replacement". It seems there is more of an issue than what is being told to users.

I'm not trying to get on your case. Online forums and other ways in which complaints about equipment are made (such as your PMs or emails) can't possibly give you an idea of what percentage of users have these problems. People who are unhappy for whatever reason tend to be the most vocal, and people without problems don't tend to post their good experiences. For that matter, a large percentage of the people who will even seek out a forum such as this one are people with problems who use google or another search engine and find a link here (or elsewhere).

If you have received 27 complaints, however they sold 227,000 units then this would have to be put into perspective.

I have not experienced the reported problem to date, but I'm going to test it with repeated insertions and removals of the power plug in my Z61T to see if I can provoke it.

My impression of why Lenovo would be phasing out the Z series is that they either feel they have too many series of laptops and they should consolidate, or that the Z series wasn't selling well. There is nothing special about a laptop having been labelled a "Z" that would make it have problems that can't be fixed. If the series was inherently bad but they were selling a lot of them they would fix the problems, and try to keep existing customers at least reasonably satisfied in order not to muck up a nice franchise.

If your logic that they are eliminating the Z series because of problems were correct, then they would have eliminated the T series long ago because of USB problems in some T41s and T42s, plus fan problems in T43s and T60s, and the Z series due to overheating and hot palm rests in the X6x models.

[BillMorrow]

Hello Gentlemen..

I have some questions and comments..

barrywohl:

IRT the freeze problem..
have any of you tried pulling the various add in devices and in the case of add in memory, swapping different memory in where that can be accomplished..?

anyone tried booting to the bios WITHOUT a HDD in place..?

so as to try to be sure it IS hardware related..??

I personally would take them up on letting them repair it and if they are unable to repair it then take the refund or get a replacement..


gotconsultants:

i'm not sure you should be farming this forum for lenovo customers with a problem for your personal commercial gain..
i will think on this and ask for advice before asking you to limit your posts to the stated mission of this forum..
(Note: I am no great friend of the lenovo sales VP's I merely want the ThinkPad product line to be successful and continue.)

Ken Fox:

(some snipping for brevity and to avoid mod irritation)

would you like to enlarge on this comment and/or let me know what the basis is for making this comment..? You can PM me if you wish, for a quicker reply..

Thanks..

[JaneL]

would you like to enlarge on this comment and/or let me know what the basis is for making this comment..? You can PM me if you wish, for a quicker reply..

I'm probably the irritated mod in question since I've doctored up some of the good doctor's quotes (along with nested and overly-long quotes from any number of other forum members). They're my latest kill-on-sight fetish now that images-without-warnings are rare!

[Ken Fox]

would you like to enlarge on this comment and/or let me know what the basis is for making this comment..? You can PM me if you wish, for a quicker reply..

I'm probably the irritated mod in question since I've doctored up some of the good doctor's quotes (along with nested and overly-long quotes from any number of other forum members). They're my latest kill-on-sight fetish now that images-without-warnings are rare!

actually, I don't know who does it or if there are multiple mods involved, I just find that if I don't snip longer quotes someone "does it for me" or makes a comment or whatever.

It seldom makes any difference, so I don't care all that much.

Notice, I said "mod irritation," not "Ken irritation"

[Ken Fox]

My experience with EasyServ has been better than yours. I'm not sure they'll fix this one, but in general they've solved my problems.

The liquid spill should not be an issue since I paid $379 extra for four years of warranty WITH ThinkPad Protection, and since there has been no liquid spill or abuse and this problem existed fresh out of the box.

I need to clarify that I have no personal recent experience with easyserv, I am merely repeating stuff I have read with some frequency in other posts on this board.

My own experience with easyserv is limited to my long ago T40, presumably in the days before Solectron had the contract. There was an issue with the screen which I called tech support about and they said it was a defect and needed depot service. I dutifully put the laptop into the box and it went out to easyserv. It came back with some sort of documentation indicating they had done something (I forget what) but the "defect" was unchanged. Later, I came to realize it was not a defect at all, that all the screens looked like mine.

IBM has sent me replacement hard drives and stuff like that in the past, but those were all do it yourself type repairs. My one experience with depot repair, which was years ago and detailed above, is not relevant to what is being said these days about Solectron.

[gotconsultants]

Just so everyone knows... I have been quite open with Lenovo and IBM management about what has been going on. I am not on a crazed rampage out for blood, but to see if there is an issue that is happening to more than just handful of people, and work to get it resolved.

I am a big fan of Thinkpads as well as IBM servers. I am hoping we can get this worked out with Lenovo...

[Kyocera]

Notice, I said "mod irritation," not "Ken irritation"

Not following rules or requests does cause mods to react, that is why we are here. Follow the rules and "no irritation" will occur on any part.

[barrywohl]

I'm probably the irritated mod in question since I've doctored up some of the good doctor's quotes

I hadn't noticed. Doctor away! I'm sorry if I was too wordy.

For Bill, I will do as you suggest, and try each of the 1GB dimms separately and try a bare machine booted to PC Doctor for DOS or something with no hard drive.

If the problem were less intermittent, it would be easier to trouble shoot.

[Kyocera]

barrywohl, nonny was talking about Ken Fox's posts.

[gotconsultants]

I just was looking through my notes in my case log and IBM technical support said that it would not be a "memory issue".... they also did not replace my AC Adapter until i asked them why they had not done so....

The thing that I find odd is that if you purchase an Onsite repair contract (more expensive), the technicans do not have any diagnostic skill when they come onsite, but when you buy the depot contract (less expensive), they test everything out.

Rob

[Ken Fox]

barrywohl, nonny was talking about Ken Fox's posts.

you know, I don't get paid for posting here and if you look at my posts, a very high percentage of them are devoted to answering other people's questions. It is not my impression, either, that I'm constantly giving out wrong information.

If mods or admins here have a problem with me or my posts, I can go elsewhere. I don't have any active computing problems that I can't solve myself, so it would not be a huge loss.

[JHEM]

If mods or admins here have a problem with me or my posts, I can go elsewhere.

I'm not aware of any "problem" anyone has with your posts other than an apparent inability to trim quotes to a manageable size at times.

A request from a Mod to modify the style in which a post is presented is in no way indicative that the post doesn't have merit.

Your possible departure from the Forum, along with your overall knowledge and willingness to help others, would be our loss.

James

[Kyocera]

Nobody gets paid for posting here. And willingness to abide by the same rules everyone else abides by should not be a problem.

[barrywohl]

barrywohl:
IRT the freeze problem..
have any of you tried pulling the various add in devices and in the case of add in memory, swapping different memory in where that can be accomplished..?

anyone tried booting to the bios WITHOUT a HDD in place..?

so as to try to be sure it IS hardware related..??

I'm proceeding with your plan. I've just pulled one of the DIMMs. I'll see if I can replicate the freeze on plugging into AC power. If so, I'll pull the other. If I can still replicate the freeze with either DIMM, I'll pull the hard drive and try booting to BIOS and then perhapsPC Doctor for DOS.

I don't want to get into the middle of the flames. For what it's worth, Ken's comments helped me.

[barrywohl]

Further trouble shooting:
The problem of freeze-up on connecting ac power occurs with either DIMM installed alone.
The problem occurs with both DIMMs installed but NO hard drive. I tested this by booting to the BIOS 2.14 setup utility. I could arrow among choices until the freeze-up occurred.
I tried to test with no RAM and no hard drive, but I could not get it to boot to BIOS in that condition. I just got error beeps.

I also noted that when the freeze up occurs, the machine still beeps on connecting or disconnecting an ac power supply.

Can I roll back the BIOS and Embedded Controller? I know that past versions are available on line. Will the installer let me install an older version? Something else to try tomorrow.

Barry