AC Power Problems On Thinkpad Z-Series Notebooks

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Ken Fox · #31 Post by **Ken Fox** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:13 pm

I've now plugged and unplugged the power cord on my Z61T, that I am using now, several times. It does what every other thinkpad I've owned does; the power saving features including screen dimming come on with the Z61T on battery power, but otherwise it works fine; no freezing.

gotconsultants · #32 Post by **gotconsultants** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:42 am

Ken,

Do you know when you purchased your notebook? and also do you know the model number?

ie: 9450-39u?

I am trying to see if I can narrow down the problematic part(s).

gotconsultants · #33 Post by **gotconsultants** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:45 am

barrywohl wrote: Can I roll back the BIOS and Embedded Controller? I know that past versions are available on line. Will the installer let me install an older version? Something else to try tomorrow.

I would actually be curious... btw what is the model number?

ie: 9450-39u

the sticker is on the bottom...

barrywohl · #34 Post by **barrywohl** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:54 am

9450-CTO

Ken Fox · #35 Post by **Ken Fox** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 9:59 am

I bought it directly from Lenovo; it is a version of a 9442-CT0, and it arrived in mid-January. Specifics at time of purchase were T2500 core duo (2ghz) processor, Multiburner II optical drive, 1gb RAM as 1x1gb, 900x1440 WXGA+ screen, 8 cell battery (although I'm using a separately purchased 4 cell battery most of the time). It came with the smaller 65 watt adapter.

barrywohl · #36 Post by **barrywohl** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 9:59 am

When l had the palm rest removed, I could see "Revision C" on the planar board.

I bought my Z61p directly from Lenovo. It shipped to me February 12, 2007.

barrywohl · #37 Post by **barrywohl** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 10:48 am

Has anyone experimented with changing power management settings in the BIOS?

I am experimenting with changing power management settings in BIOS 2.14 right now.

Here's my Before/After for the BIOS power management:

z61p bios for power management

Timer Wake with battery operation: disabled (left alone)
Intel Speedstep technology: enabled => disabled
mode for AC Automatic (disabled by above)
mode for battery: battery optimized (disabled by above)
Adaptive Thermal management
scheme for ac: maximize performance => balanced
scheme for battery balanced (left alone)
CDROM Speed: normal (left alone)
CPU Power Management: automatic. => disabled
PCI Bus Power Management: automatic => disabled

I'll report back when I get enough trials. (No freeze up on the first few but that is not enough to draw any conclusions.)

gotconsultants · #38 Post by **gotconsultants** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:09 pm

Barry,

Can you send me the specs page for your notebook... Funny enough my notebook is a Z61m, but it is still a model "9450"... I am asking everyone else who PM'd here or through e-mail me to send me their model number...

barrywohl · #39 Post by **barrywohl** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:33 pm

Rob, here's some NEWS about the problem:

The BIOS settings did not solve the problem.

The freeze up occurs with the FIRST plug in but not 2nd through 10th.

Here's something really surprising.

The AC adapter DOES NOT HAVE TO BE LIVE.

Plugging in an AC adapter that is disconnected from the line CAN STILL CAUSE A FREEZE-UP.

Here's my specs:
Intel� Core" 2 Duo processor T7600 (2.33GHz, 4MB L2, 667MHz FSB)
2 GB PC2-5300 DDR2 SDRAM 667MHz SODIMM Memory (2 DIMM)
100 GB 7200 SATA hard drive.
15.4" WUXGA wide screen.
DVD-RAM optical drive.

Barry

#40 Post by **BillMorrow** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:41 pm

barrywohl:

thinkpad won't boot at all without SOME memory in at least one of the mem sockets..

i should have mentioned that..

begins to really look like a hardware issue on the planar board or a closely related sub assembly..

at this point i would have the planar replaced and see what happens..

ken fox:
I have not heard any negative comments except loading your posts with overly long and un-needed quotes of the previous message..
that said, its really not such a big thing.. there are reasons for and against quoting the entire question in the reply..
i suppose that the admins should get together and come up with a policy..
meanwhile, your presence here is an asset and if we are to remain the best source for thinkpad support then it is people like you, with practical hands on experience, who make it so..
so if we must endure a few overlong quotes, we will do so, since IMO overquoting is better than no quoting..

gotconsultants · #41 Post by **gotconsultants** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:11 pm

BillMorrow wrote:barrywohl:

thinkpad won't boot at all without SOME memory in at least one of the mem sockets..
i should have mentioned that..

begins to really look like a hardware issue on the planar board or a closely related sub assembly..

at this point i would have the planar replaced and see what happens..

Bill,

I have already had mine replaced 3 times... no luck... I did not throw any weight around until I was bascially told that they needed to keep replacing the planar board. When I called Lenovo out onto the carpet about the issue being unable to be resolved they went straight onto the defensive, as if they knew something was going on....

barrywohl · #42 Post by **barrywohl** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:23 pm

barrywohl wrote: Here's something really surprising.

The AC adapter DOES NOT HAVE TO BE LIVE.

Plugging in an AC adapter that is disconnected from the line CAN STILL CAUSE A FREEZE-UP.

An UNPLUGGED ac adapter that is then (without juice) plugged into the adapter receptacle caused my machine to freeze up this morning.

Unplugged!

Grounding? Switching over from battery to ac? Weird.

Anyway, I'm thinking that replacing the planar board would not fix a badly manufactured or installed ac adapter receptable.

I've got a port replicator but I don't know if attaching the Z61p to the port replicator will cause the freeze up.

Ken Fox · #43 Post by **Ken Fox** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:44 pm

barrywohl wrote:
barrywohl wrote:

sometimes the best approach is the one more or less guaranteed to eliminate the problem. And since they have offered to take it back for full credit, that is what I would do.

There must be another Thinkpad in the line that you can buy that will meet your needs.

For the record, I do like my Z61T a lot but I use my T43 more often; I really like the 14.1" SXGA+ screen. The T42 I had before that, with a 15" SXGA+ screen was also an excellent notebook, just too big for my taste. The current T60 15" SXGA+ should be just as good or better.

ken

Ken Fox · #44 Post by **Ken Fox** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:46 pm

BillMorrow wrote: ken fox:
I have not heard any negative comments except loading your posts with overly long and un-needed quotes of the previous message..
that said, its really not such a big thing.. there are reasons for and against quoting the entire question in the reply..
i suppose that the admins should get together and come up with a policy..
meanwhile, your presence here is an asset and if we are to remain the best source for thinkpad support then it is people like you, with practical hands on experience, who make it so..
so if we must endure a few overlong quotes, we will do so, since IMO overquoting is better than no quoting..

Bill,

Thanks for your nice board which is a pleasure to visit. And thanks for your kind words.

ken

barrywohl · #45 Post by **barrywohl** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:31 pm

Ken Fox wrote:sometimes the best approach is the one more or less guaranteed to eliminate the problem. And since they have offered to take it back for full credit, that is what I would do.
ken

Ken, that option, without appeal, went away March 5th at 7 pm EST. I think they will do that for me if they are unable to properly repair my new Z61p.

Since, the current line excludes WUXGA and UXGA resolutions, no currently sold ThinkPad is as suitable for me as a repaired Z61p with a WUXGA screen.

In my electronic medical records program 1600 x 1200 or 1920 x 1200 displays show a full "page" of information corresponding to what is printed on an 8 1/2" x 11" piece of paper printed from the electronic record. MOST users of my software run on 1024 x 768 and have to scroll to see the "full page."

I love the display and speed of this new machine. I'm optimistic that EasyServ will do better for me than they have done for Rob and for another one of our board members.

If the repair is successful, I'll be more satisfied than if I trade for a T60 with a WSXGA+ 1680 x 1050 screen. That screen would be my second choice.

Ken Fox · #46 Post by **Ken Fox** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:56 pm

barrywohl wrote:
In my electronic medical records program 1600 x 1200 or 1920 x 1200 displays show a full "page" of information corresponding to what is printed on an 8 1/2" x 11" piece of paper printed from the electronic record. MOST users of my software run on 1024 x 768 and have to scroll to see the "full page."

I have another solution for you; retire! That's what I did and I haven't missed medicine for a minute.

Sorry. Hope I haven't unduly depressed you

fbrdphreak · #47 Post by **fbrdphreak** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:46 am

Have you guys considered a grounding problem? If the AC adapter freezes the machine without being plugged in, sounds like it wouldn't be an AC adapter or power issue - but a grounding issue. Try grounding the machine before you plug-in and see if you get any freezes.

barrywohl · #48 Post by **barrywohl** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:30 pm

fbrdphreak wrote:Have you guys considered a grounding problem? If the AC adapter freezes the machine without being plugged in, sounds like it wouldn't be an AC adapter or power issue - but a grounding issue. Try grounding the machine before you plug-in and see if you get any freezes.

Exactly, but how?
To me it acts as if, intermittently, plugging in the AC adapter shorts something inside on the planar board.

It sounds to me like there's a manufacturing or design defect in the ac recepticle itself or the circuits/traces associated with it.

You are correct that I said plugging in an ac adapter can freeze the machine even when the ac adapter itself is unplugged from line current. Anyway, my machine is awaiting pickup today. I should have an answer on whether they got it fixed by 03/16/07.

gotconsultants · #49 Post by **gotconsultants** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:42 pm

fbrdphreak wrote:Have you guys considered a grounding problem? If the AC adapter freezes the machine without being plugged in, sounds like it wouldn't be an AC adapter or power issue - but a grounding issue. Try grounding the machine before you plug-in and see if you get any freezes.

Good idea, but I already had thought of that... I had even thought it was the AC Adapter, but the interesting thing is that Barry and I have the same exact model 9450... Interestingly though he has the Z61p and I have the Z61m...

barrywohl · #50 Post by **barrywohl** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:48 am

Update on my EasyServ repair.
DHL picked up my Z61p Monday afternoon for overnight delivery Tuesday. DHL sent it by ground instead of air so EasyServ Memphis received it Thursday.

Thursday, EasyServ held it up for more information from customer, in spite of my two page problem description sent in the repair box. I faxed the problem description Thursday night, resending the same problem description. It went back into "being repaired" status Thursday night at 18:04.

I tried Thursday night and three times on Friday to get past EasyServ depot's customer no service representative to communicate with the repair floor. Its status has remained "being repaired" since Thursday night at 18:04.

My fear is that they've plugged it in for "burn in" testing and will send it back to me saying it ran fine all weekend so it is "fixed." Since the problem only occurs at the instant the AC adapter is connected, leaving it running all weekend wouldn't show the problem.

However, I'm hoping that they've actually replicated the problem, identified the solution and are just waiting for a WORKING planar board to complete the repair. That would be good. Otherwise, there's a T61p in my future.

barrywohl · #51 Post by **barrywohl** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:25 pm

Update on my Easyserv repair.

I received my Z61p (new and defective on February 12, 2007) back from Easyserv today.

They replaced the planar board and updated the bios and embedded controller.

They DID NOT fix the defect of freezing up on plugging in the AC adapter.

I called sales to arrange a credit but it was 4:20 Mountain time and too late to find the right people. I'll call early tomorrow.

I hope to float the credit for a month and then get a T61p with WUXGA screen. I'm hoping that such an animal will be available within a month or so.

Ken Fox was right that returning it was the answer.

Rob Squire was right that they would attempt but fail to fix it.

orthm · #52 Post by **orthm** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 1:17 pm

fbrdphreak wrote:Have you guys considered a grounding problem? If the AC adapter freezes the machine without being plugged in, sounds like it wouldn't be an AC adapter or power issue - but a grounding issue. Try grounding the machine before you plug-in and see if you get any freezes.

We are having similar issues with some T6x machines. It's starting to look like a combination of static discharge and battery being used. People who never had the shut down problem, started having it when they got the replacement battery from one of the recalls. It might be useful to start tracking the battery manufacturer being used along with the shut down problem.

My T60 has a Panasonic battery and it has the shutdown prob. I can avoid it be holding the Thinkpad and grounding myself to the power plug or docking station before plugging it in...

barrywohl · #53 Post by **barrywohl** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 1:29 pm

orthm wrote:It's starting to look like a combination of static discharge and battery being used. People who never had the shut down problem, started having it when they got the replacement battery from one of the recalls. It might be useful to start tracking the battery manufacturer being used along with the shut down problem.

My machine is back at Level 2 Tech Support in Raleigh Durham and DOES seem to be a static discharge problem. I've also noticed the problem is more likely with some discharge of the battery but occasionally happens with a full charge. I've noticed it with either the 6 cell or the 9 cell I received with the machine, both post recall batteries.

Your post is interesting that you've had it with T6x machines also. It makes me more glad I didn't quickly jump to a T6x machine.

Barry in Wyoming

orthm · #54 Post by **orthm** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:45 pm

We have 5 or 6 folks now having shutdown problems and they all have post recall batteries. I noticed that the issue got worse during the winter when it's less humid. This would make sense if it were static related. For docking stations, we've gotten little extenders for the outside grounding pins. These ground the Thinkpad before the connection is made to the big connector on the bottom of the machine. In the grand scheme of things, I'd rather have the machine shut down than catch fire(reason for one of the recalls. Sony cells), but it's still annoying.

barrywohl · #55 Post by **barrywohl** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:16 pm

orthm wrote:We have 5 or 6 folks now having shutdown problems

Just to be sure you and I are talking about the same problem, my machine locks up/freezes up. The screen stays with the most current "picture", but nothing else works. The only way out is to hold down the power button until the machine powers off and then reboot. Ctrl-Alt-Del does nothing. The keyboard does nothing. The pointer controllers (Ultranav pad or mouse or trackpoint) do nothing. If a sound was happening, it makes a sick, baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa sound.

Is that the same symptom you're seeing on the T6x computers?

orthm · #56 Post by **orthm** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:35 pm

Sounds slightly different, the T60s are rebooting. Plug in or set in docking station, poof, hope you saved your work... End result is the same though.

fbrdphreak · #57 Post by **fbrdphreak** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:12 pm

Re: Shutdown w/docking station

Have you seen this?
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... MIGR-67382

orthm · #58 Post by **orthm** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 4:22 pm

That fix works pretty well for docking stations. Can still kill the machine just plugging it in though. Pretty much confims the static problem, but the battery manufacturer seems to be part of the puzzle as well.

zulu61 · #59 Post by **zulu61** » Wed May 09, 2007 2:56 pm

Within the first week of owning my ThinkPad I noticed a few quirks:

The AC Adapter gets hot as a bear if I play games while it is recharging.

The laptop takes a good three minutes or so to shutdown completely

Machine often gets hung when it falls into hibernate mode and will not come out of it gracefully

The fingerprint reader fails upon bootup fairly often and won't recognize any of my digits unless I Control alt Delete and select ok then scan again at the second popup scan window

There is a 15-20% chance of the entire PC locking up if I plug in the AC adapter while the machine is running and almost out of battery power.

I have the original battery that was shipped to me (ordered October 2006, received the machine in January 2007)

Z61m 9450-D9U
Intel® Core 2 Duo processor T7200 (2GHz)
2GB RAM
120GB 5400rpm HD, 15.4in 1680x1050 LCD
128MB ATI Radeon X1400
with Windows XP

I know how this will sound but I have just been too busy to bother with tech support and I can not have them take away my machine for repair as it is my workhorse. As a result (and many years of patience, wives and understanding) I simply have adapted and accepted some of these quirks since for the most part they don't impede the performance.

The one exception is the AC Adapter locking up the machine when the battery is nearly spent and I need to switch to power. Consequently I found a workaround that may sound stupid but has worked for me every time. Here's what I do:
Plug in the cord by itself into a wall plug
Plug the adapter cord into the back of the laptop
Then join them together.

I use this machine about 14 hours a day and I usually charge and fully discharge the battery several times a day. It has not locked up on me ever when I do it that way. I figure it has something to di with grounding/static but haven't given it too much thought since I am not very technical.

I have changed things by making sure it never goes into Hibernate
I usually can shutdown more quickly if I end any/all wireless connectivity software running first
Using Ctrl/alt/Delete to reswipe is not a real hassle or I'd disable it

I'll keep my eye on this thread to see if it is ever resolved in a more intelligent manner but for now I can survive.

Best,
PZ

barrywohl · #60 Post by **barrywohl** » Wed May 09, 2007 4:19 pm

zulu61 wrote:Consequently I found a workaround that may sound stupid but has worked for me every time. Here's what I do:
Plug in the cord by itself into a wall plug
Plug the adapter cord into the back of the laptop
Then join them together.

...It has not locked up on me ever when I do it that way. I figure it has something to di with grounding/static but haven't given it too much thought since I am not very technical.
Best,
PZ

PZ is right that it is a grounding/static problem, at least for my Z61p. Lenovo engineering at Lenovo U.S. headquarters in North Carolina replaced my DC in receptacle with one from a T60 and that solved my lock up problem 90%. In addition, they were able to replicate the problem on an in house Z61 and fix it the same way. My machine is back in North Carolina at Lenovo headquarters for a second time for installation of another, more Z61 specific improved DC in receptacle.

I've been biding my time responding on this thread until my machine is 100% fixed, but I'm pretty sure, at least for my machine, we've got the problem identified and greatly improved, perhaps fixed.

AC Power Problems On Thinkpad Z-Series Notebooks

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