Debating the purchase of a new Z series - advice appreciated

[phillip]

Hi,

I am looking to upgrade my T41 to a faster and more capable machine and I'd also like to get one of the new widescreen formats but I want to get a system with a keyboard mouse. I really don't get on at all well with mouse pads after using so many Thinkpads for so long now.

I have been looking at the Z6** range but in the UK the Z61m is pretty expensive and only comes as standard with a one year warranty ( I've checked around on this ) which really surprises me and it's not even an on-site warranty at that. I have to buy two further years which is not cheap and makes the price of the package almost comparable to a Mac.

I want to be able to have a dedicated graphics processor instead of having the shared memory system which uses the gpu in the on-board chipset as I want to use the laptop for video editing. I've read a lot about the Z series but nothing that makes me want to rush out and buy one at the asking price, which includes the full 3 yr warranty, and so I'm wondering if anyone has any comments or suggestions.

The fact that there is only a one year warranty puts me off as I see this as an indication that the new manufacturer is looking to cut costs and not stand behind their product as IBM did and that makes me skeptical. I may be wrong in thinking this way and I'm open to changing my mind in the light of any informed opinion.

I have looked through the postings in this section of the forum and noticed a lot of mixed comments but I also notice a lot more problems than I would have expected about a company whose name has, up to now, been synonymous with quality and reliability and backed up by A1 support and service. I have heard of companies who have been dedicated IBM users who have since upgraded to the latest machines and have experienced a significant increase in problems with their laptops. I'm sure that there are equally as many Thinkpad using companies out there who are ecstatically happy with their new IBMs but who you never get to hear of as we live in a world which thinks that the only news worthy of broadcasting is bad news. In this respect it's nice to see positive comments and compliments in this forum.

I've looked at a the high spec Dell Precision M65 and what that offers, for less money and which also includes a 3 years on site warranty, and it's making me think whether or not it's time to change from my dedication to using Thinkpads. I'm reluctant to do this but ....... with everything else seemingly manufactured in China these days is there really that much difference in quality now. What constitutes and justifies the premium in paying for a Lenovo now that IBM are moving away from this market.

Any advice would be most welcomed
Kind regards and best wishes
Phillip

[dsalyers]

It does seem that plenty of people have problems with their Z61 series. However, I will say that I own a Z61p and my wife a T60p. We have not had any problem with either laptops (although they are only 2 months and 8 months old respectively).

If you are nervous about the z-series then I would suggest looking at the T-series. They now have a widescreen T60p.

I can't really comment on the price, as when I bought mine the Z61p was very fairly priced (but, then again I am in the US, so I imagine prices are not the same).

I have also had experience with the most recent MacBook Pro. (I bought one because my z61p order was taking so long). However, I ended up returning it and resurecting my z61p order because there were a number of things that I couldn't do with the MacBook Pro that I needed for research. If you know this won't be a problem, I don't think there is any major things wrong with them.

[jkahng]

i have a Z61M 9541-5hk and here are a couple of thoughts...

1. this machine is huge
- 15 inch Z series bodies are made from plastic. (some have titanium lids. mine doesn't) plastic is less rigid than reinforced carbon fiber bodies, thus you have to use more to get the same strength. doesn't add too much weight but the size gets larger...
- thickness of my Z61M is at least 5-10mm thicker than HP or Mac pro models with 15.4" screens

2. samsung panels are grainy
- mine has the LG-phillips panel, samsung's LCD technology is home grown. meaning they do all the R&D. although they make the best DRAM modules in the world (i'm biased ) LG panels have the know how and technology of phillips.
- you can do a search and find out more. basically it's a crap shoot

3. plasic lid flexes
- i have the plastic lid. it flexes considerably. i'm scared to death about cracking / damaging the panel. i use a zeroshock memory foam pouch but it's still an issue for me. get the titanium lid if possible

4. price
- my Z61m specs are
- core duo 1.83, 512mb ram, 100mb 5400rpm HD, 15.4" 1680x1050, plasic lid, no web cam.
this cost me roughly $1,370.00 US. it was a steal(in korea of course) compared to other machines i looked at. i don't know about UK market so you would have to be the judge.

5. warranty.
- same story here, only 1 year (not on site) for the machine and 2 additional on the motherboard. i'm looking into how much it will cost to buy more. i heard somewhere that it was impossible fo rme to purchase extended warranty from lenovo korea but i have yet to confirm this. you should compare prices with additional warranties if you can purchase it.


I think the build quality and after service is not an edge for thinkpads anymore. it's a shame. (consequences of lowering retail price)

all that said, i love my Z61M. i did a lot of research before i bought my machine and the pros that got me to buy this machine is...
1. display (hi res)
2. legendary thinkpad toughness
3. cost

hope this helps.

jkahng

[phillip]

Hi,

Thanks for the helpful comments and information. One question I would have about /p variants is that of the workable screen resolution. I have an A22/p which is a great machine but the 1600x1200 screen is a nuisance insomuch that it won't work useably at any other resolution.

If I want to check something out to see how it appears in 1024x768 then I have to use another machine as I can't change my 22/p to work in that mode and get any decent kind of quality. Does this apply to the high end screens of the Z and T6*/p series or have they got more flexible now in respect to working outside of their specified default resolution.

As for prices, the best deal that I can find here in the UK which will give me 3 yr "carry in" ( great expression ) warranty is about $2,600 and that's for 2GHz/120GB/1GB/DVDrw/1680x1050 etc, no carry case and with just WinXP Pro. I haven't looked at windows Vista yet and have no idea what it offers over and above XP but have read a great deal about Vista's premium content restrictions so I'm not sure if having just XP is an advantage or not. Lots to think about.

Thanks again
Kind regards and best wishes
Phillip

[warder]

While I have the z60m rather than z61, I can say that I've been very happy with it.

In the past I've had Toshiba's, Compaq's and other brands and think this is better than those have been. I have the Titanium lid and it protects the screen very well. I've bashed the lid a couple of times when it's been in my laptop backpack and it's been fine.

The keyboard is also good quality - the key feedback is perfect for me, unlike say current cheap HP's, and the keys are in the right places (unlike say Toshiba's). To me it seems quite feature packed too, with finger print security (hard disk is password protected and you need to finger print in from the BIOS to boot the PC), and all the ports in the right sort of places.

On things like driver support, I'd say they were above the rest - all Vista drivers were available on the release date for my PC. Some Dell's still don't have drivers!

I would probably get another Thinkpad in the future, which can't be a bad recommendation.

[dsalyers]

Hi,

If I want to check something out to see how it appears in 1024x768 then I have to use another machine as I can't change my 22/p to work in that mode and get any decent kind of quality. Does this apply to the high end screens of the Z and T6*/p series or have they got more flexible now in respect to working outside of their specified default resolution.

Well, your current A22 has UXGA resolution. This has been pretty much discontinued, except there are some older T60Ps you can find with it, and there are Z61Ps with that resolution. The resolution that you mention (1680x1050) is WSXGA+. This should be easier to read then WUXGA (1920x1200) for the same size screen. When I switch my laptop from (1920x1200) to (1280x800) WXGA+, the text doesn't look as crisp, but I would certainly consider it usable.

There are mixed reviews about windows vista. It has some nice features, and other things have caused people problems. So, if there are specific applications that you need to run for your work, I would make sure they are known to work under Vista.

I have a free upgrade to Windows Vista, and I have decided to wait until service pack 1 comes out (should be late this year) before switching from XP. I will say that in general Lenovo's support for windows vista is pretty good.

[jkahng]

hello phillip,

1. resolution
- i came from using a 15" 1400x1050 to the z61m's 15.4 1680 x 1050. it's very legible for me at least. i also looked at the 1920x1200 display before i purchased. the text was just too small for my tastes. here's a link for a dpi calculator...
http://members.ping.de/~sven/dpi.html

15.4 at 1680x1050 : 116.7dpi
15.4 at 1920x1200 : 147.02dpi

some people love the higher dpi. i wear glasses and just could not see myself use this resolution. i would have loved to have the fire gl v5200 chip but had to settle with the x1400 due to display
as for "zooming" to 1280x800, if you hit function+spacebar, you will be able to zoom to a lower resolution on the fly, but using an lcd at anything other than native resolution is just not good enough for me i hardly ever use this. with that said, i would say that this setting is workable...

your prices seem normal for a top of the line z61p, but much too high compared to us prices. you should consider buying from US and have someone bring it over / ship to you. the world warranty should be good in UK as well.

you should also note that the z series will not be offered in the future.

jkahng

[phillip]

Hi,

Thank you for your kind and helpful comments and the information, it's very useful. I had thought of looking at getting the mid range of screen offering on the Z61m and using an external 17" monitor to view the 1024x768 resolution when I need to judge what screen content will look like at that size and ratio when I'm doing my project work.

What I'm not sure of is how the transition would work in the respect of how the graphics card handles the change in aspect ratio from widescreen to 4:3 and what gets lost, if anything, in the conversion. I haven't been able try this yet and wonder if anyone has any experience of using their system in this way.

If, as you point out, the Z series will not be offered in the future then will it be replaced by something along the same lines which also has the keyboard mouse or are they going to discontinue this style of machine altogether.

I have looked at prices in the USA and they seem much more attractive than here in the UK. My only concern in getting one via this method is the fact that the warranty period and requirements have changed and I'm wondering how much else had changed along with it. Without reading the Ts & Cs to discover the full content of the small print I have no idea of the implications of the change especially the part about "carry in" as they call it. Carry in to where is my question and how would it work in the UK and anywhere else in the world.

To me, the IBM warranty was legendary and it sent a message to purchasers that the company who produced the kit was confident in their product and would back it up wherever and whenever necessary because they'd budgeted for a limited amount of failures and returns. In my view, Lenovo don't come across as having that level of confidence in their products as they have seen fit to change the terms of their support policy and I see that as a weakness which reflects on their products.

I don't see the marketing strategy in tinkering with something which buyers the world over have been attracted to IBM for in the past which has been representative of their trustworthiness. When I started out in computing in 1970 the old saying was that "no one ever got fired for buying IBM". I can't see that being said about Lenovo. I don't feel that the new company have done themselves any favours by juggling with the warranty terms just to save a few bucks in order to make their prices look more attractive. To me it's just short term thinking.

Then again I may simply be out of touch with the current times and trends where people presumably have much different purchasing criteria these days in our consciousness of a "disposable" society. To me, $2,500 doesn't constitute a disposable item and I want something of that value to give me good reliable service for quite a few years.

Thanks again
Kind regards and best wishes
Phillip

[barrywohl]

I have an A22/p which is a great machine but the 1600x1200 screen is a nuisance insomuch that it won't work useably at any other resolution.

I don't understand this. I have an A21p and an R50p. Each has a screen with 1600 x 1200 native but each runs fine with Windows XP sp2 at 800 x 600 right up to 1600 x 1200.

As for your Z61 question, I bought mine about 4 weeks ago and it is back at EasyServ now trying to get its problem fixed. The problem is that it freezes up intermittently when I am running on battery power and then plug in an AC adapter (even one with no power). The problem is intermittent. If EasyServ fixes this, I'm happy with my 1920 x 1200 Z61p. If it is not fixed, I would NOT recommend this computer but would choose a T60 or a future T61 instead.

The Z61 offered some features not present on the T60: Firewire connectivity and a built in 4 in 1 card reader. At the time I purchased, you couldn't get a T60 with 1920 x 1200 either. I wanted either 1600 x 1200 or 1920 x 1200. I like the 1920 x 1200 screen and don't miss the lack of IPS.

I paid extra for a four year warranty including accidental damage protection (ThinkPad Protection).

[jkahng]

Hello phillip,
1. widescreen => 4:3 translation
- the only way to get a full 4:3 1024X768 is to get a 1024x768 screen but i would think that you could resize the window on the z61 to get that size. you can work with that on the laptop and view it on an external when you need to see it "in full" as you mentioned
- the graphics cards on these machines can drive just about any monitor out there as a dual output (there is a resolution limitation but it's definately around 1600x1200 so don't worry)
- short thinking : yes, i agree. competative pricing at the cost of quality assurance and support is a no no. but that's what lenovo is doing now. the last "true" thinkpads were T43s. my colleagues have them and they are definately worthy of ibm name. LENOVO has been making thinkpads out of china before ibm sold the thinkpad / pc line to them. it's not a question of where it's made or who makes it. but a matter of how the company handles quality and support. it's really a shame.
- don't get a Z series machine. it's a crap shoot and it's either perfect or unusable. if you are to get the Z series, make sure that you have warranty coverage.

regards,
John

[bkn]

I have owned a Z60m with titanium lid for the last 10 months. It died after only 3 hours use and a new motherboard was fitted under warranty. Since then, it has behaved flawlessly and I am extremely happy with it's performance. It's heavier than my T23 and T30 laptops but is much faster and has all the extras which make it an ideal desktop replacement.

I don't really use it enough and would be willing to sell it to you. Bristol is less than 20 miles away.

[redsoxidahovandal]

I have the Z61M And I love it. It is by far the largest Laptop i have ever used, but aside from some issues early on with some of the ThinkVantage Software I have had no problem (The thinkvantage password manager was not working well with outlook 2k7) So I re-imaged the drive.

As an IT Manager I usually try to have a small laptop, but the Z61M is flawless. It runs all my flight simulator programs and will run a DVD and keep me busy when I am traveling from site to site.

It is sturdy - My girlfriend likes it and she is a Mac User. The Keyboard is very nice.

As for the quality of Lenovo, We have 2 approved vendors in our company for the Laptops - Lenovo, and HP Business Machines (Which we re-image as soon as the box is opened)

I also have a Windows Vista partition on the hard drive, and it runs nice as well.

So in the end - the Z61M is awesome if you are looking for a business class and wide screen machine all in one.