IBM ThinkPad T42 (2373CYU) - My firsthand impressions...

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feamster · #46 Post by **feamster** » Sun May 23, 2004 9:33 am

I was wondering, with the ghosting that you experienced, how does the screen do with action (fast motion) movies?

Thanks

#47 Post by **BillMorrow** » Sun May 23, 2004 10:16 am

on my R50p it is excellent..

what in particular would you like me to look for..?

RaysMD · #48 Post by **RaysMD** » Sun May 23, 2004 1:17 pm

The older version on the T40/T41s, I have been told, would only restore to the ntfs partition and leave the partition table unharmed.

Let me chime in on this. I had a T40 which was setup as follows from the factory.

1. small IBM partition
2. ~70GB partition

so, I reformatted using WindowsXP install CD into
1. small IBM partion
2. 8 GB winxp partitoin
3. 62 GB main partition

It worked just fine. However when I ran Rapid restore, the entire partition map reverted back to the original. I was hoping that it would only modify the 2nd partition and leave my "main" large partition alone. nope, lost all my data.

Conmee · #49 Post by **Conmee** » Sun May 23, 2004 1:25 pm

For users with one big partition and a single OS (namely, Windows), I think Rapid Restore is pretty cool. But who uses a single partition, single OS system anymore? lol. I think it may be more trouble than it's worth to implement on a multi-partition, dual-boot configuration.

Chun-Yu · #50 Post by **Chun-Yu** » Sun May 23, 2004 2:36 pm

JaimitoBond wrote:Not sure how you tested it, but I was comparing two people's test results using that same software. So compared to T42 (2373CYU): CPU-ALU=5493 CPU-Int=16518 CPU-Flt=18233 Mem-Int=2184 Mem-Flt=2193 HDD=22548 BufferedWrite=67MBsec (5400rpm HDD)

the 72K is faster. The slowest step in computer is often the HD.

I tested my 5K80 using the same software. This isn't the only benchmark I've seen where the 5K80 and 7K60 come pretty close, either. The slight benefit certainly isn't worth the extra $70 (a 60GB 5K80 is just $140, compared to $210 for a 7K60) in my opinion. Perhaps the drive in that T42 somehow isn't a 5K80? My old Dell had a 40GB 5400rpm drive too, but it was a Hitachi 40GNX, the model that came before the 5K80, and it was considerably slower than a 5K80 (up to 10 MB/s slower in some cases). The new "adaptive formatting" of the 5K80 provides a real improvement over the old 40GNX, along with the new noise reduction stuff that makes it MUCH quieter.

Daniel · #51 Post by **Daniel** » Sun May 23, 2004 2:46 pm

Depending on the software you're using, the additional speed in day to day usage is much more noticeable than stepping up the processor.

So using your logic: $70 < ~$200 because in some programs upping the disk and lowering the latency associated with seeking gives a much more noticeable improvement in performance when compared to upping a processor.

Like what was said earlier, the hard disk is one of the biggest bottlenecks in computing. Your RAM is capable of moving at what.. 2700MB per second while the hard drive sits there struggling to put up 30MB/s. It's what you're waiting for when you load up a program, windows, etc.

Chun-Yu · #52 Post by **Chun-Yu** » Sun May 23, 2004 3:06 pm

Actually, I usually just leave most of my programs running until I have to restart for a Windows update (I have 1.25GB of ram in my T41), so the time it takes to load the program isn't really an issue. The only case where the extra speed might be beneficial is when I'm using BitTorrent, but then again, the extra 20GB I'd get out of an 80GB might be even more beneficial when it comes to that

I've even seen BitTorrent bring a T41p with the 7K60 to it's knees before - the "Display Properties" dialog box took well over a minute to come up.

Matt · #53 Post by **Matt** » Sun May 23, 2004 3:51 pm

Conmee wrote:For users with one big partition and a single OS (namely, Windows), I think Rapid Restore is pretty cool. But who uses a single partition, single OS system anymore?

Been thinking about this today, and I think the best solution might be to keep your 2nd OS on a separate HD and pop it in the ultrabay drive when you want to boot to it. Not a perfect solution I realize (you'd probably have to have it in the primary drive slot for OS installation if installing from a CD, or if you need an optical drive in ), but it'd work well enough for most use (for me, anyway).

Mofongo · #54 Post by **Mofongo** » Sun May 23, 2004 8:23 pm

Conmee wrote:For users with one big partition and a single OS (namely, Windows), I think Rapid Restore is pretty cool. But who uses a single partition, single OS system anymore? lol. I think it may be more trouble than it's worth to implement on a multi-partition, dual-boot configuration.

In some ways, doing dual boot is easier than ever before. On my current workstation, I partitioned, installed XP on the first partition, then installed Linux afterwards. Everything works magically and automatically. If I had done this in reverse, it still would have been a piece of cake because the normal XP install CD is even smart enough to allow the user to select which partition to install to.

The problem here I have found is the developers of windows software...e.g. the developers of Rapid Restore...have their heads up their a**es and essentially made their product just compatible with Windows, since it does not support extended partitions.

The even bigger travesty is IBM. First of all, they went ahead and bought this lame software, while at the same time they are claiming that their Thinkpads are "certified" Linux compatible. Secondly, what ticks me off royally is included in the cost of every Thinkpad is $179 for XP Pro, but can I actually get a copy of XP Pro that simply installs into the partition I want? No! I have to get it embedded in other "restore solutions" so that it trashes my entire hard drive if I need to reinstall it. Not even Microsoft is that iron-handed.

I think I will just burn copies of the restore CDs so that I have a copy if I ever need to do a fresh install, then get rid of the service partition. I will just back up my XP partition using DriveImage or Ghost. Then I should in theory never have to restore from scratch anyway.

Mofongo

JHEM · #55 Post by **JHEM** » Sun May 23, 2004 8:41 pm

Mofongo wrote:I think I will just burn copies of the restore CDs so that I have a copy if I ever need to do a fresh install, then get rid of the service partition. I will just back up my XP partition using DriveImage or Ghost. Then I should in theory never have to restore from scratch anyway.

Burn a bootable CD, then copy the C:\i386 folder from your HD to it.

Everything you need to install XP from scratch is in there and you can install it to any partition you want.

Regards,

James

Mofongo · #56 Post by **Mofongo** » Sun May 23, 2004 9:02 pm

JHEM wrote:Burn a bootable CD, then copy the C:\i386 folder from your HD to it.

Everything you need to install XP from scratch is in there and you can install it to any partition you want.

That's neat! I know that one can download the Thinkpad utilities from the IBM website, but what about the other commercial software that ships with the unit, like the WinDVD creator and Sonic label maker. Do you know if it is possible to reinstall those somehow?

Thanks!

Mofongo

Conmee · #57 Post by **Conmee** » Sun May 23, 2004 9:34 pm

Mofongo wrote:
JHEM wrote:Burn a bootable CD, then copy the C:\i386 folder from your HD to it.

Everything you need to install XP from scratch is in there and you can install it to any partition you want.
That's neat! I know that one can download the Thinkpad utilities from the IBM website, but what about the other commercial software that ships with the unit, like the WinDVD creator and Sonic label maker. Do you know if it is possible to reinstall those somehow?

Thanks!

Mofongo

Make it a bootable DVD (I did) and you can copy from the factory IBM install the following: C:\I386, C:\IBMTOOLS, C:\DRIVERS, C:\SUPPORT, and C:\VALUEADD. The original applications are under C:\IBMTOOLS\APPS. You'll find the Sonic, Intervideo, and Restore and Recovery installation files there.

Also, there will be a number of XP patches, Hydravision, Acrobat Reader, etc.

Daniel.

Mofongo · #58 Post by **Mofongo** » Sun May 23, 2004 10:37 pm

Great! So just to make sure I understand exactly what to do, if I need to reinstall I would boot the DVD (which contains all of the directories you list), then I would have to manually start the WindowsXP setup from the \i386 directory (or is there some magic that would make this do it automatically?). Then after XP has installed, I stick the DVD back in and run the installers for all the other stuff (except for Rapid Restore

).

Is this correct? If so, I can live with that.

Thanks,

Mofongo

#59 Post by **BillMorrow** » Sun May 23, 2004 11:13 pm

last time i investigated a TP with no OS i was told IBM MUST sell a copy of XP with every cpu..

its not IBM, it is the greedy iron fist of M$..

Matt · #60 Post by **Matt** » Sun May 23, 2004 11:16 pm

Just out of curiosity, how up-to-date is the OS on the HD? SP1 with all the patches or does it need a few hours worth of Windows Update time out of the box?

JHEM · #61 Post by **JHEM** » Sun May 23, 2004 11:22 pm

Mofongo wrote:Is this correct? If so, I can live with that.

Yep, that's it. Run WINNT.EXE from the \i386 folder and everything else from their respective folders after XP finishes.

Regards,

James

Matt · #62 Post by **Matt** » Sun May 23, 2004 11:32 pm

That's gotta be the tech tip of the month...thanks!

#63 Post by **BillMorrow** » Sun May 23, 2004 11:44 pm

pretty up to date last time i got a new R50p in feb..
SP1 i think..
i can look if you want a certain answer..

FWIW, from experience with M$ updates i would wait 6 months before applying one to your thinkpad..

critical security updates are different..
backup the system first..

Mofongo · #64 Post by **Mofongo** » Mon May 24, 2004 12:57 am

morrow wrote:last time i investigated a TP with no OS i was told IBM MUST sell a copy of XP with every cpu..

its not IBM, it is the greedy iron fist of M$..

Yes, that is true of many big distributors (Dell, Gateway, IBM, HP, etc). They get a better price on XP by agreeing to sell one with every system. It's not so much that I mind that as I do the packaging (or lack thereof) of the software. Truly, I should get a CD with Windows XP on it if I paid for it. I should also get CDs with all the other software (like WinDVD) that I have also paid for. But this is laziness on IBMs part.

The thing that bugs me about Microsoft is that frequently the copy of XP that I am forced to pay for when I buy the system will only work on that brand of system...it's tied to the BIOS so that it will only install on a system with correct BIOS. For example, if I buy and HP, the version of XP that comes with it will only work on certain HP computers and that's it. This is the way Microsoft protects against copyright infringement. However, this deprives my of my right to resell my copy of XP. I paid for it, I own it, I should be able to sell it!

Mofongo

#65 Post by **BillMorrow** » Mon May 24, 2004 1:07 am

you are preaching to the choir, here..!

i do not like the M$ tactics..
nor do i like what i have heard is coming with the next version of windoze..

i sure hope linux has matured because i will not buy M$ unless i am forced to do so..

#66 Post by **JaneL** » Mon May 24, 2004 7:08 am

>I should also get CDs with all the other software (like WinDVD) that I have also paid for. But this is laziness on IBMs part.
>

It's not really laziness when you consider that most ThinkPads are sold to large companies who have their own custom preloads and don't need or want the recovery CDs. It's a waste of time and $$$ to ship recovery CDs with every system when the bulk of them just end up in a landfill somewhere. Much better to make them available to purchasers who actually want them via a simple phone call - free in the first 30 days, a small fee after that.

Conmee · #67 Post by **Conmee** » Mon May 24, 2004 8:13 am

Windows comes with SP1 and runs a pre-install script that applies sixteen or so of previously released updates. I ran Windows Update on a brand new T42 and here's the result:

10 Critical Updates and Service Packs
13 Windows XP Components

36.8MB of download. And if you download the latest Windows Media Player, there will be two additional Critical Updates to fix that. And this doesn't include Messenger 4.7. For some reason, they require you to update Messenger 4.7 and download Messenger 6.2 separately.

Mofongo · #68 Post by **Mofongo** » Mon May 24, 2004 12:14 pm

Conmee wrote:Make it a bootable DVD (I did) and you can copy from the factory IBM install the following: C:\I386, C:\IBMTOOLS, C:\DRIVERS, C:\SUPPORT, and C:\VALUEADD.

OK...next stupid question. Why are these thinks sitting on the NTFS partition on the hard drive, anyway? (Not that I am complaining). Shouldn't they already be part of the IBM_SERVICE partition or predesktop area?

It seems quite redundant. The IBM_SERVICE partition (or predesktop area for T40/41) eats up 4.x GB on your drive, mostly holding the data it needs to reinstall. Then it just copies the installation packages to your NTFS partition, then installs from those. So in the end you have each piece of software on your drive 3 times: twice in the form of installation packages, and once as the actual installed software.

Good thing I didn't get a 40GB drive! I think I would have about 15K left for my data...

Mofongo

#69 Post by **BillMorrow** » Mon May 24, 2004 12:43 pm

the recovery process works like this..
(or did)..

recovery pertition will recover directly and not install a second version of itself..

recovery CD set will (or did) give you the option of:
1. recover from CD's to HDD..
or
2. recover the hidden recovery partition and then initiate the recovery process from there..

all this was current with the last 5 CD recovery set for the 2373, 2378, 2379, 1830, 1832 etc..

with the T42 this might change..

YMMV

#70 Post by **shfawaz** » Mon May 24, 2004 1:59 pm

Was this T42 ordered directly from IBM? I didn't see this mentioned so I assume thats where it was purchased from.

Conmee · #71 Post by **Conmee** » Mon May 24, 2004 5:29 pm

shfawaz wrote:Was this T42 ordered directly from IBM? I didn't see this mentioned so I assume thats where it was purchased from.

My T42 was ordered directly from IBM. As for Mofongo's gripe, yes, the recovery/restore partition holds pkzipped files that are used to extract all the installation files after using a DriveImage-like utility to restore WinXP. In the new version, IBM uses a scripting language called Python to extract and config the system, then uses an application from Microsoft called sysprep to get the system ready for user setup and configuration.

I'm going to wipe out the Service Partition and install WinXP from scratch, and partition as needed. That way I don't have a drive half full of install files and restore files.

Daniel

benz · #72 Post by **benz** » Mon May 24, 2004 6:02 pm

Sorry if this has been covered before, I just want to clear something up:

Say I have a new Thinkpad (T42) and I wipe the HD clean (of ALL partitions, hidden and otherwise). I also have a retail box of WinXP Pro, which has been installed on another computer of mine. Can I (feasibly and legally) install this retail version of XP on the clean HD, but using the Product Key on the bottom of the Thinkpad?

Thanks.

Conmee · #73 Post by **Conmee** » Mon May 24, 2004 6:07 pm

benz wrote:Sorry if this has been covered before, I just want to clear something up:

Say I have a new Thinkpad (T42) and I wipe the HD clean (of ALL partitions, hidden and otherwise). I also have a retail box of WinXP Pro, which has been installed on another computer of mine. Can I (feasibly and legally) install this retail version of XP on the clean HD, but using the Product Key on the bottom of the Thinkpad?

Thanks.

No... the keys on the bottom of the ThinkPads are OEM keys and when you install it in a retail version, it will tell you that you have an incorrect key. You'll have to use the retail key, if indeed you have legally obtained it. lol

taphil · #74 Post by **taphil** » Mon May 24, 2004 7:24 pm

This is how I used the recovery CD's to install XP OEM by itself, without any of IBM/OEM setup and the long (and as Mofongo pointed out, maybe pointless) hour spent in pkunzip.

1. In BIOS, set up to boot from CD.
2. Boot from recovery CD disk #1.
3. Follow directions, it'll ask you if you want to erase everything.
4. It'll then re-image the hard disk, using disk #1 and #2.
5. When that's done, it'll ask you to put disk #1 back in.
6. Computer reboots, but quickly take out the recovery CD and boot from the hard drive! (What normally happens is that pkunzip will run using disks #1-5.)
7. Windows should load up.
8. At logon, it'll tell you that Windows must be activated. If you refuse, it'll log out and repeat.
9. Go on and activate Windows over the telephone.
(now this is where my memory begins to fail)
10. After activation, XP will log on and I think Sysprep begins to run. Just cancel it (try one of the three options, I can't remember which one but only work works, and reboot.
11. Windows will ask you to activate Windows again. Do it over the telephone.
12. Windows XP is now all set up with no IBM software.

If you don't have the recovery CD's but do have the Predesktop area in tact, you can restore from that. When it reboots after re-imaging the drive, all the pkunzip stuff should start to run. Just press CTRL+BREAK to stop pkunzip and reboot, then Windows will begin booting and just follow the steps above to activate.

IBM's system restore makes absolutely no sense to me. Doing the restore (1) re-images XP in 10 minutes, and (2) then spends the remaining 80 mins or so in pkunzip and setting up Windows software. The final product is maybe 4-5GB of space, which can be reduced by deleting the zipped packages. Why doesn't IBM just make the system restore function so that it just re-images the entire hard drive of Windows all set up, which might only take up 2GB of space and 15 minutes?

benz · #75 Post by **benz** » Mon May 24, 2004 8:01 pm

You'll have to use the retail key, if indeed you have legally obtained it.

Oh its legal alright. I bought it from my bookstore for my other computer at home, but I sure as hell don't want to buy another just to get a clean install of WinXP.

9. Go on and activate Windows over the telephone.
(now this is where my memory begins to fail)
10. After activation, XP will log on and I think Sysprep begins to run. Just cancel it (try one of the three options, I can't remember which one but only work works, and reboot.
11. Windows will ask you to activate Windows again. Do it over the telephone.

So you actually activate it twice, or am I misreading something? Why would Sysprep 'un'activate windows just by starting up? And won't the MS rep get a little suspicious when you call twice within 5min? I guess a lot of this I will just have to see for myself when I get my T42p, so I apologize if I'm not asking very intelligent questions.

IBM ThinkPad T42 (2373CYU) - My firsthand impressions...

How does it do with action movies?

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