flexview and eye strain

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dr_st · #31 Post by **dr_st** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:54 am

WPWoodJr wrote:I think the LG Flexviews are S-IPS too from my reading somewhere.

My claim is based on specs that I picked up from LG's site back when the panel was still listed. This is why I tend to believe it.

WPWoodJr · #32 Post by **WPWoodJr** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:07 am

You're right, I found the old Philips brochure online which lists the T60's LP150E05 panel and it is listed as IPS not S-IPS.

http://www.humanthink.co.kr/data/LG_Philips_LCD.PDF

#33 Post by **archer6** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:12 pm

sb37 wrote:Any results in your investigation yet, archer6? Thanks again for doing this.

I did a little more research on Hydis vs LG screens. It seems that the Hydis screens are UXGA but use AFFS technology (one type of post-IPS technology) and are 6-bit, whereas the LG-Philips screens are SXGA+ but use S-IPS, a newer technology, and are 8-bit. Does this seem right to everyone?

My research into this will be delayed a bit due to my heavy travel/work schedule, however since my last post this does seem to be a relatively new issue.

I will have more in about a week.

vkyr · #34 Post by **vkyr** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:05 am

npish wrote:here's a question: putting aside the issue of Lenovo's apparent discontinuation of Flexview/IPS displays, is LG/Phillips their ONLY current/most recent supplier--that is to say, if you've ordered a T60 w/ FV in the past few months, does it *definitely* contain an LG display?

I'm curious because I'm at the point of wanting to request a replacement panel to see if this "sparkle" quality of the coating is particularly bad on mine, or just an inherent quality of all LG/Phillips Flexview panels (even though I'm fairly certain that it's the latter)...

I'm posing the initial question because I'm wondering if it's currently possible to get a NON-LG Flexview display from Lenovo (at least for those seeking replacements under warranty, as they do not seem to be available for new purchases); if so, it would be interesting for the sake of comparison with respect to this coating problem.....

Dependent on a specific Thinkpad model with a FlexView display and dependent on the resolution (SXGA+ or UXGA), there are different panel suppliers used.

AFAIK LG-Philips IPS panels are only used in 15" FlexView panels with an SXGA+ resolution. UXGA resolution based FlexView panels did stem instead in former Thinkpad models from IDTech and nowadays (in T60 models) from Boe-Hydis.

If you have a Thinkpad with an LG SXGA+ IPS panel assembled, there aren't much alternatives in exchanging the LG panel with some panel from a different panel supplier. I don't know, if Lenovo/IBM might still have some IDTech SXGA+ IPS panels in stock (?), which they maybe could assemble as an alternative in your case.

Another way to get around this for you would be to take a look at a Thinkpad with an higher resolution UXGA IPS panel, since those panels stem nowadays from Boe-Hydis (in older TP models from IDTech).

I use here at my side an IDTech UXGA IPS panel inside a notebook and I can tell you that this panel doesn't have any "sparkle" effects.

...if you've ordered a T60 w/ FV in the past few months, does it *definitely* contain an LG display?...

BTW, there aren't any T60 widescreen FlexView panels. IPS/FlexView panels are just available for 15" 4:3 aspect ratio Thinkpads in SXGA+ and maybe also still in UXGA resolutions. - IPS panels so far are only available for specific 15" Thinkpad models and the 12" X60 TabletPC.

WPWoodJr · #35 Post by **WPWoodJr** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:55 pm

I found this in an article reviewing two high-end displays for photographers:

The so-called crystal effect is often recalled in Web forum discussions of different matrix types. This effect can only be seen on S-IPS matrixes: solid-color areas seem to be shimmering or sparkling on them. But the extent of this effect is somewhat overstated. Firstly, it is well visible only from a short distance, like 30 centimeters, whereas it is recommended to sit at a distance of at least 60 centimeters from the screen. Secondly, it is most visible on matrixes from LG while the LCD2190UXi has a matrix made by NEC.

See page 3 of:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/ ... itors.html

I will admit I can see a slight shimmering of my Flexview screen, but I'm unaware of it unless looking for it.

WPWoodJr · #36 Post by **WPWoodJr** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 1:22 pm

Here is a great article on LCD displays:

Contemporary LCD Monitor Parameters: Objective and Subjective Analysis

shalliday · #37 Post by **shalliday** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:05 pm

From reading the comments posted here, am I correct in understanding that the BOE Hydis UXGA panel (13N7196) is considered superior to the LG-Phillips SXGA+ panel (13N7078), making it the preferred choice between the two? This is really important to me since I now need to decide which replacement panel to go with.

Thanks again,

Scott Halliday

san · #38 Post by **san** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:29 am

Shalliday , having owned both I would without hesitation yes, go for the UXGA.
Apart from the before mentioned "sparkling" of the LG (which the Boe Hydis lacks thanks god) it also has better viewing angles; both are good but the LG tends to have a "shift" in lighting intensity (not colors) when changing view angle. The colors though , are IMO ever so slightly better/more accurate on the LG + black is really "black" where the boe hydis tends to have a bit purple haze. When viewed side by side this was very obvious. I am a photographer and I am used to pay attention to colors so I might be very picky here.
Still, the BoeHydis wins on clarity, contrast and it is brighter. I can work 10+ hours on max resolution with no eye strain or headache vs 3 hours on the LG would make me all dizzy.
As a "reference" I would say that text on the UXGA is more readable than both the 15" and 14" SXGA+ displays , despite beeing smaller.
The last thing I will mention is that the Boe Hydis works really well with Cleartype fonts in windows. On both the SXGA+ displays (14" and 15" LG) - and quite a few LCD desktop displays - I saw a "red glow" on some fonts.

WPWoodJr · #39 Post by **WPWoodJr** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 10:08 am

Thanks san, I've been wondering about the differences between these displays, good to have someone with a critical eye for color give us the low down. When you say the color is better on the LG, do you mean that colors are more saturated, or what? When you say contrast is better on the BoeHydis, is that because its brighter? How much brighter - when you reduce the brightness on the BoeHydis by one "bar", is it still as bright as the LG?

Sorry to ask all these questions, hope you don't mind!

XiP · #40 Post by **XiP** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:07 pm

I use to have an 15" UXGA IPS a31p. I absolutely loved it and never had any eye problems using it. My T42's screen gives me a headache after a while because of the XGA resolution.

san · #41 Post by **san** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 4:21 pm

WPWoodJr wrote:When you say the color is better on the LG, do you mean that colors are more saturated, or what?

First, I did not do any profiling of the displays. I used the standard sRGB profile on the LG and found the IBM provided flexview profile to give a better result on the Boe Hydis (this was *terrible* on the LG). I compared the displays side by side with my trusty old profiled IBM trinitron monitor and the LG was spot on to the point where I thought "no way"! not on stock sRGB with no adjustments. Another thing that impressed me was the smooth tonal transitions, where the 6 bit limitation will usually give a slight banding effect - not so on the LG. Mind you, I am really beeing picky here when comparing to the Boe Hydis, but if I had to pick a winner in the color department, LG it would be.

When you say contrast is better on the BoeHydis, is that because its brighter? How much brighter - when you reduce the brightness on the BoeHydis by one "bar", is it still as bright as the LG?

The Boe Hydis is definately brighter, I'd say between one to two "bars". But also the "sparkling" effect of the LG coating kind of lower the contrast, since "pure white" seem to never really be achieveable. "pure white" isnt so much of an issue in most general photography since , well that would mean blown out highlights , but for a number of other things, pretty much everything involving black text on white background it was annoying. And I found myself constantly hitting fn-home just to found out I already had max brightness.

shalliday · #42 Post by **shalliday** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 4:47 pm

This thread just keeps getting bettter and better!

Hi San,

Thank you very much for taking the time to post all this helpful information. This is exactly what I needed. Your posts have made it easy for me to choose the Boe Hydis panel over the LG. While more accurate color with the LG is nice, being able to more easily read text and use the laptop screen for extended periods of time without eye strain are both far more important features for my use.

The Lenovo site lists the following two BOE-Hydis UXGA LCD panels for the T60 Thinkpad:

13N7076 - BOE-Hydis LCD panel, 15 inch UXGA FFS,
13N7194 - BOE-Hydis LCD panel, 15 inch UXGA FFS (sRGB)

Just wondering if you could tell me which of the Boe Hydis panels you have?

Regards,

Scott Halliday

san · #43 Post by **san** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:19 pm

Thanks for your kind words Shalliday. I received a lot of help on these forums myself and am just happy to give a little back.

I was not aware that there was two different hydis ips displays, but the one I have is the 13N7076.

WPWoodJr · #44 Post by **WPWoodJr** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 6:20 pm

san wrote:but if I had to pick a winner in the color department, LG it would be.

Thanks san. It seems the LG Flexview would be better than the BoeHydis for games, photography, and movies because of its better color response.

san · #45 Post by **san** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 6:45 pm

For photography / image editing I would give the edge to the LG, yes... as for games and movies that would really depend more on response time, something I did not compare. I just played a bit of Call of Duty on my UXGA and there was no sign of ghosting. The LG could be just as good though, only I did not try it.

WPWoodJr · #46 Post by **WPWoodJr** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 10:50 pm

I'm thinking that with the more vibrant colors of the LG, it would be better for movies and games. I've watched movies on mine and didn't notice ghosting, but I wasn't looking for it either - was enjoying the movie too much!

shalliday · #47 Post by **shalliday** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:22 pm

san wrote:I was not aware that there was two different hydis ips displays, but the one I have is the 13N7076.

That is really good news since that is the only one currently available.

san wrote:For photography / image editing I would give the edge to the LG

In an earlier post you mentioned that you used the IBM provided flexview profile with the Boe Hydis. Just wondering if perhaps the Boe Hydis could be tweaked to improve it's color accuracy and help narrow the difference with the LG panel. San were you able to try this or has anyone else?

sb37 · #48 Post by **sb37** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:29 pm

archer6 -- any update on this matter? thanks again for offering to look into it.

npish · #49 Post by **npish** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:24 pm

to echo sb37-- archer6, I too am quite curious if you've had a moment to conduct your display comparison;

again, the ultimate concern here--as far as I'm concerned--is whether or not this coating issue is universal among all LG/Phillips SXGA+ Flexview displays, or if it in fact varies among specific panels;

if someone is able to demonstrate the latter possibility, then there would be grounds for requesting an exchange/replacement.

in the context of this discussion, UXGA/Boe-Hydis panels are completely irrelevant----anyone who has ordered a new T60 w/Flexview in the recent past has received an LG panel; for those who would like to go the UXGA route, that's a separate matter; personally, I think the SXGA+ resolution is perfect for the 15" form factor (and furthermore, I don't think we're completely there yet with flawless scaling [even in Vista]);

sb37 · #50 Post by **sb37** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:59 pm

I think we might have determined that it's not a "coating" issue but an issue with the panel itself that is creating the sparkle effect. there are posts about this in other topics.

npish · #51 Post by **npish** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:42 pm

huh, really? I thought the conclusion was that the anti-glare coating produced the effect...

sb37 · #52 Post by **sb37** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:34 pm

can't seem to find the post (looking through but getting a headache from scrolling on my panel). If it pops up again i'll be sure to post it here. it linked to a bunch of different sites that explained IPS technologies, and quoted a paragraph talking about the "sparkle" effects of S-IPS screens.

san · #53 Post by **san** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:04 am

shalliday, I havent done any profiling of the display, and I think I wont bother. I have heard about bad results trying to profile these 6 bit panels and my current spyder only supports CRT. The color accuracy is pretty good as it is though.

About the "sparkling thing" I'd say that I'm 100% sure it is related to the coating, it will become obvious examing the display with a flash light, since the coating creates a quite obvious "prism" effect on the surface.

About readability of the small fonts on the UXGA it has to be tried to be beleived how good it is. I was myself surprised to find that the font size itself did not matter as much as the contrast or "display quality". Vista has good scaleable font support, and though I do not use it (no need) I found it to work really well , except for the sidebar that doesnt scale.

WPWoodJr · #54 Post by **WPWoodJr** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:12 am

I've had good results profiling the UXGA display on the T42p using Monaco Optix Pro to create a "table based" profile. I found that the LG SXGA+ Flexview does not need profiling and usually makes it worse. Use sRGB as your default profile for the LG.

san · #55 Post by **san** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:53 am

WPWoodJr wrote:Use sRGB as your default profile for the LG.

I second that

eMaringolo · #56 Post by **eMaringolo** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:43 pm

I own a R50p with UXGA 15" Flexview (LG, AFAIK), and use it for reading text (programming) and photo manipulation. If your sight isn't the best, i wouldn't recommend UXGA, because it's overkill, you'll see the pictures with a LOT more resolution, but the size of the fonts on the screen will make your eyes get tired earlier than with a 15" XGA screen.

However, If your eyes are trained enough, or working fine, I would go for the UXGA, I've never seen an screen like this before. It isn't brighter as some other screens I've seen around (Macs and Sonys mostly), but the colours are really accurate, and the viewing angle is great.

My vote goes for a UXGA.

Hope this help.

flexview and eye strain

Re: flexview and eye strain

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