2nd hard drive in slim bay question

[gt5l]

I would like to buy a slim bay adapter to slip a hard drive that I already have. The hard drive is Hard Disk Family Travelstar 80GN, 40gb, 4200rpm, Ultr ATA/100. Which slim bay adapter should I buy, compuvest have these two the part numbers are lenovo's. So would a Ultra ATA HD work in a Serial ATA adapter? or do I need to buy the HDD adapter? I am lost here.

41U3148 HDD adapter
40Y8725 Serial ATA adapter

[RonS]

You can use either ATA or SATA drives in the slim bay. Look inside the slot and you can see both connectors, which mate to the slim bay adapter.

I've tested both and they do indeed work.

[gt5l]

Thank you but will my HD Ultra ATA work with the SATA Slim Bay adapter?

[gator]

No ... you need to get the PATA adapter.

[gt5l]

No ... you need to get the PATA adapter.

Does Lenovo sell a PATA slim bay adapter?? I did not see it please point it out if you know something I don't know

[gator]

Yes, Lenovo does sell a PATA adapter - part # 41U3148.
$39 at buy.com with google checout:
http://www.buy.com/prod/lenovo-thinkpad ... 07156.html

[gt5l]

Thanks, do you recommend getting this slim bay adapter? is the data transfer rate slower for this type of adapter versus the SATA? Sorry for asking all these questions but the more I know the better decisions I am able to make

[gator]

I would guess that that SATA is going to be a bit faster if you are primarily concerned about speed. My choice would be a PATA adapter because of the following reasons:

1. Cost - PATA drives are cheaper
2. Portability - I can buy a cheap external enclosure for a PATA drive and use it as a USB HDD on any other computer if I want to. SATA enclosures are not cheap.

[gt5l]

One more question, on the Lenovo website it says that this slim bay adapter is Compatible with ThinkPad R50, R50p, R51, R52, T40, T41, T41p, T42, T42p, T43, T43p , X40(1), X41(1), and X41 Tablet(2), Series notebooks and optional docking solutions. It does not list the T60p which is what I have.

So will it work with the T60p?

[steveg47]

Thanks, do you recommend getting this slim bay adapter? is the data transfer rate slower for this type of adapter versus the SATA? Sorry for asking all these questions but the more I know the better decisions I am able to make

I doubt if there will be any observable difference as the ide interface of the ultrabay negates the performance advantages of a sata drive.

[gator]

One more question, on the Lenovo website it says that this slim bay adapter is Compatible with ThinkPad R50, R50p, R51, R52, T40, T41, T41p, T42, T42p, T43, T43p , X40(1), X41(1), and X41 Tablet(2), Series notebooks and optional docking solutions. It does not list the T60p which is what I have.

So will it work with the T60p?

It works with the T60. I have used one personally. If you shine a torch inside the ultrabay, you will see that it has adapters for both PATA and SATA.

[RonS]

PATA and SATA drives benchmark identically in my T60. There is no observable performance difference.

If you're getting a second drive, you may want to consider making it SATA simply to have a hot spare for your primary drive, with is strictly SATA.

[gt5l]

Thanks to everyone that responded, I went ahead and ordered the PATA drive direclty from lenovo (I get a good Govt Employee discount). Lenovo has free shipping special right now and I have used my google checkout $10 off coupon when I purchased the docking station.

[gator]

If you're getting a second drive, you may want to consider making it SATA simply to have a hot spare for your primary drive, with is strictly SATA.

That is an excellent point to consider.

[gt5l]

Gotta love this great interaction with experts form different fields. Given that I already have a PATA HD and I dont want to spend any money on another HD at the time, i believe that that PATA slim drive was a good choice for me. If i decide to upgrade to the new 160gb 7200rpm HD I would cell the PATA slim bay on eBay and buy a SATA slim bay. Again you dont know how thankful I am to have joined this community. I will contribute as much as I can for as long as I could

[denton]

I have 2 PATA slim adapters that I pop between my Z61, T60 and X60 Ultrabase - performance is fine - no compatibility issues.

Clay

[FRiC]

Gotta love this great interaction with experts form different fields. Given that I already have a PATA HD and I dont want to spend any money on another HD at the time, i believe that that PATA slim drive was a good choice for me. If i decide to upgrade to the new 160gb 7200rpm HD I would cell the PATA slim bay on eBay and buy a SATA slim bay. Again you dont know how thankful I am to have joined this community. I will contribute as much as I can for as long as I could

Did you buy the drive or the drive adapter? If you already have the drive, you might need to get rails for it so it's not too loose inside the adapter.

[pae77]

The drives don't need rails to fit inside the Ultrabay slim adapter.

[FRiC]

I guess it depends on the type of Ultrabay HDD adapter, but on the one I have (65P4553, curved bezel) , if the drive doesn't have rails, then it's loose inside the tray, since the adapter has no screws to fix the drive. With the rails attached, the screws on the rails fit right into the plastic struts on the adapter and is fixed securely. Or maybe the 41U3148 part comes with the rails? Dunno. (On the image on that buy.com page, you can see the drive already has rails attached.)

The rails are the same type that are used when the drive is mounted into the notebook. (T4x PATA.)

[kulivontot]

I have a PATA drive in my T60 right now... It is the IBM branded (non-cheapo) for the T43. The drive benchmarks exactly the same as the SATA drive in there. This is due to the interface being natively PATA in order to support the DVD/CD-ROM drive. Thus having the SATA ultrabay adapter seems to be moot. Also, my drive is not loose at all, there's a tiny piece that folds down and holds the drive in place. I don't find the lack of screws holding it in place a problem. Overall definitely worth the investment as it allows me to have the convenience of an external drive without the hassle of extra cables and a clunky external enclosure. Oh yeah, not to mention better performance than any USB enclosure could possibly provide.

[jayober]

Related to this thread, I have a T43 and bought the SATA HD adapter that I didn't realize was only for the T60 and a couple other new models. The ultrabay form factor and interface connection appear to be exactly the same as the PATA adapter and the DVD/CD ROM drive. The only difference I can see is that the SATA adapter has a plastic tab which prevents it from sliding into the T43's ultrabay.

The question is, if I were to remove the plastic tab, would my T43 be able to see this drive? Again, the SATA adapter's ultrabay interface is the same IDE interface that the PATA adapter or the DVD/CD ROM would use.

Hoping to avoid either returning the adapter and drive or having to get a USB enclosure.

[andyP]

Related to this thread, I have a T43 and bought the SATA HD adapter that I didn't realize was only for the T60 and a couple other new models. The ultrabay form factor and interface connection appear to be exactly the same as the PATA adapter and the DVD/CD ROM drive. The only difference I can see is that the SATA adapter has a plastic tab which prevents it from sliding into the T43's ultrabay.

The question is, if I were to remove the plastic tab, would my T43 be able to see this drive? Again, the SATA adapter's ultrabay interface is the same IDE interface that the PATA adapter or the DVD/CD ROM would use.

Hoping to avoid either returning the adapter and drive or having to get a USB enclosure.

AFIK the T43 has a SATA controller with a PATA bridge for the primary HDD. As far as the Ultrabay is concerned I believe it only supports PATA. I would NOT remove the plastic tab in order to try it out, it's there for a reason and therefore doesn't fit in the T43.
On the other hand, when the T43 already has an SATA controller you could presume that it will support SATA in the Ultrabay, BUT what about the other t4* series in which, with a broken off tab the adapter would fit, they do not support SATA. I would say DON'T try it, it could be an expensive experiment. (unless you've got money to throw away).

[jayober]

I agree that the primary drive is only PATA for the T43 even with the PATA/SATA bridge. But with the ultrabay it seems the situation is different? A previous message piqued my curiosity:

"This is due to the [ultrabay] interface being natively PATA in order to support the DVD/CD-ROM drive. Thus having the SATA ultrabay adapter seems to be moot."

So trying to understand if there's an actual technical reason why a T43 wouldn't be able to see an SATA drive mounted in the ultrabay.

The PATA hard drive adapter without a tab will work in a T60, so I'm not sure why the reverse isn't true. The only thing I can think of is the SATA drive requires more power than the older Tx series can support or there is some I/O issue that requires SATA support for the ultrabay.

Another point, if I were to get a USB enclosure I could use the SATA drive I bought. The enclosure is converting the SATA to USB comms. USB is USB, so it doesn't matter whether the drive is SATA or PATA. So I'm guessing the same is true for the ultrabay. That hard drives and DVD drives are being converted to PATA/IDE.

Maybe I'm wrong on this, but if it's true, then the with the tab broken, the drive will fit and all should work both physically and technically.

And yeah, I may just break the tab and see what happens. Sure, it's a $45 experiment, but restocking fees and shipping make the return not quite so beneficial.

[Ken Fox]

I agree that the primary drive is only PATA for the T43 even with the PATA/SATA bridge. But with the ultrabay it seems the situation is different? A previous message piqued my curiosity:

"This is due to the [ultrabay] interface being natively PATA in order to support the DVD/CD-ROM drive. Thus having the SATA ultrabay adapter seems to be moot."

So trying to understand if there's an actual technical reason why a T43 wouldn't be able to see an SATA drive mounted in the ultrabay.

The PATA hard drive adapter without a tab will work in a T60, so I'm not sure why the reverse isn't true. The only thing I can think of is the SATA drive requires more power than the older Tx series can support or there is some I/O issue that requires SATA support for the ultrabay.

Another point, if I were to get a USB enclosure I could use the SATA drive I bought. The enclosure is converting the SATA to USB comms. USB is USB, so it doesn't matter whether the drive is SATA or PATA. So I'm guessing the same is true for the ultrabay. That hard drives and DVD drives are being converted to PATA/IDE.

Maybe I'm wrong on this, but if it's true, then the with the tab broken, the drive will fit and all should work both physically and technically.

And yeah, I may just break the tab and see what happens. Sure, it's a $45 experiment, but restocking fees and shipping make the return not quite so beneficial.

I responded to your PM already.

Please let us know how this experiment works out, if you do try it!

[jayober]

When comparing the SATA ultrabay adapter to my ultrabay DVD/CDROM, the interfaces look alike and are lined up exactly the same.

From a technical I/O standpoint, my belief is that both the ultrabay DVD/CDROM and the ultrabay HDs use an EIDE interface. This is the same for both a T43 and a T60. This has to be the case otherwise a PATA drive shouldn't work in a T60.

My only guess for why they're not compatible is for power reasons and not I/O reasons. SATA drives require much less power (250mv) than PATA drives (5v) --> http://www.directron.com/patasata.html . So it may be the case that T43's and older model's EIDE interface only support 5v devices. Where as on the T60 and newer models there are separate pins for both 5v and 250mv devices.


If that's the case then if I were to break the tab the ultrabay would fit, but the drive wouldn't be powered.

However, there's also the possibility that the EIDE interface supplies the same power for all devices and the ultrabay adapter has the power management built in to achieve the right power for the device. That's the case with USB devices, just don't know for ultrabay.

[Ken Fox]

When comparing the SATA ultrabay adapter to my ultrabay DVD/CDROM, the interfaces look alike and are lined up exactly the same.

From a technical I/O standpoint, my belief is that both the ultrabay DVD/CDROM and the ultrabay HDs use an EIDE interface. This is the same for both a T43 and a T60. This has to be the case otherwise a PATA drive shouldn't work in a T60.

My only guess for why they're not compatible is for power reasons and not I/O reasons. SATA drives require much less power (250mv) than PATA drives (5v) --> http://www.directron.com/patasata.html . So it may be the case that T43's and older model's EIDE interface only support 5v devices. Where as on the T60 and newer models there are separate pins for both 5v and 250mv devices.


If that's the case then if I were to break the tab the ultrabay would fit, but the drive wouldn't be powered.

However, there's also the possibility that the EIDE interface supplies the same power for all devices and the ultrabay adapter has the power management built in to achieve the right power for the device. That's the case with USB devices, just don't know for ultrabay.

As I've said in PMs, I'd not encourage you to modify the ultrabay to try to use it in the T43. That having been said, I don't know where you get your figures on power usage. SATA drives use the same 5V that PATA drives do. It may be that there are SATA devices that only need 250mv, but to my knowledge the currently available 2.5" hard drives, whether PATA or SATA, need 5V, regardless of what that article may infer.

I do have several USB2-> PATA or SATA adapters used for hooking bare drives up directly through a USB2 connector. I also have desktops with at least one SATA drive in them that is hooked up to the power source originally intended for a PATA drive but hooked up via an adapter that clearly does NOT modify the input power, merely adapts it to a SATA power plug. If there was an issue with this I'm sure I would have fried a drive or two or three by now, and that there would have been some sort of warning supplied with the adapters.

In the case of one older SATA desktop drive I have, it has both old style PATA and new style SATA power connectors on it; without doubt the drive would not spin with 250mv supplied to it.

Finally, I have a LOT Of experience with using laptop drives, both SATA and PATA, in 2.5" enclosures. The sticking point with these enclosures is whether or not they get enough power; if not, the drive merely clicks and is not recognized by whatever computer it is plugged into. I have no reason from my own experience to believe that SATA 2.5" drives are any less finicky as regards to getting full on 5v power as are 2.5" PATA drives.

[jayober]

The 250mv vs 5v came from the chart in this link toward the middle http://www.directron.com/patasata.html

...but in looking at the SATA adapter it has "5v" labeled clearly.

In looking at both the SATA adapter and my DVD/CD drive, the only difference I see is that the DVD/CD has a angled bezel on the bottom whereas the SATA adapter is flat.

Based on this simple comparison, guess is that the only reason it's not compatible is for aesthetic reasons and not technical reasons.

Also, accessories are add a nice stream of revenue and it's helpful when you make a design change such that people upgrading their equipment will also have to upgrade their accessories. Or making it seem as though you have to upgrade. The Lenovo site shows that the PATA adapter isn't compatible with the T60, yet real-world experience revealed that it does.

[Ken Fox]

The 250mv vs 5v came from the chart in this link toward the middle http://www.directron.com/patasata.html

...but in looking at the SATA adapter it has "5v" labeled clearly. The Lenovo site shows that the PATA adapter isn't compatible with the T60, yet real-world experience revealed that it does.

Another possibility is that the SATA HD ultrabay adapter would work with the T43 (with its SATA-PATA bridge) but not with the earlier models in the T4x series. It may be that they decided that the easiest approach was to simply make the adapter not fit into any of the T4x ultrabays even though this would eliminate possible use in a T43. Since the T43 uses a PATA drive in the primary drive bay, excluding a SATA drive in the ultrabay would be no big deal since few people would even think to use it in the first place. This is likely the *real* reason.

[FRiC]

I have a PATA drive in my T60 right now... It is the IBM branded (non-cheapo) for the T43. The drive benchmarks exactly the same as the SATA drive in there. This is due to the interface being natively PATA in order to support the DVD/CD-ROM drive. Thus having the SATA ultrabay adapter seems to be moot. Also, my drive is not loose at all, there's a tiny piece that folds down and holds the drive in place. I don't find the lack of screws holding it in place a problem. Overall definitely worth the investment as it allows me to have the convenience of an external drive without the hassle of extra cables and a clunky external enclosure. Oh yeah, not to mention better performance than any USB enclosure could possibly provide.

I'm kind of curious about this. Since the rails are so thick, without the rails installed, if I turn the adapter upside down, the drive would actually fall out a bit and is only held in place by the PATA adapter. The little plastic that folds down doesn't even touch the drive. Before I found the rails on ebay, I had to cut little pieces of foam and stuff them in the area around the drive to keep it from moving when the computer isn't placed horizontally. If you bought the drive from IBM, doesn't it already come with the rails pre-installed?

[gt5l]

I'm kind of curious about this. Since the rails are so thick, without the rails installed, if I turn the adapter upside down, the drive would actually fall out a bit and is only held in place by the PATA adapter. The little plastic that folds down doesn't even touch the drive. Before I found the rails on ebay, I had to cut little pieces of foam and stuff them in the area around the drive to keep it from moving when the computer isn't placed horizontally.

I did the same thing, except i used a piece of cardboard from a shoe box, I am serious.