Upgrading sound on the T60 worth it? (ie: Echo Indigo)

[Somewhat Damaged]

Hey guys, first post.

I got my T60 (2007-01U) with 1gig of ram back in January of this year. It was actually my first laptop purchase, and I've been extremely happy with my choice (got a great deal on it), especially compared to my girlfriends HP (dv1000 series). Aside from the lack of an S-video out, and lack of media card reader(very minor issue), I'm very happy.

My question to you guys is about the soundMAX high definition integrated audio.

I'm also the proud owner of Grado SR80 headphones and I'm surprised at the better than expected performance I'm receiving while having my cans plugged into my T60.

What I was more concerned about is when I move ahead to go with purchasing my set of Klipsch Promedia 2.1's (I used to have a the promedia 4.1's a few years ago but they burned in a house fire ), and I'm just wondering if plugged them right into the headphone jack would still be suffice for good quality audio, or if I'm better off upgrading to something like the Echo Indigo add on?

Now my issue with the Echo Indigo is that its requires a cardbus slot which is currently occupied with a belkin Pre N notebook adapter for wireless networking, to go in conjunction with my belkin pre N router. The speeds I'm achieving with this wireless setup is phenomenal (upwards of 500kb/sec), so it's not something I'm really willing to sacrifice. Unless the difference in audio is very noticeable, I wouldn't mind switching cards from time to time, but this could prove to be very tiresome considering I listen to most of my music generally when I'm surfing the web.

Also I wanted to know if anyone here can tell me if there is a noticeable upgrade in sound from the soundMAX HD audio to the echo indigo headphone jack while using your cans.

I've also used my grado's on my desktop (dell xps gen 3, yeah i know its overpriced but i was too lazy to put together my own), and to be quite honest, the headphone jack at the front of the tower is TERRIBLE. I didn't notice the difference until I plugged my headphones into my girlfriends lappy and was blown away by the difference in quality. I was lucky to maintain that same sound quality when using the SR80's on my thinkpad, so if anyone has had any information on how they would sound on the Indigo, I would absolutely love to hear it.

Also if anyone has had a chance to use them with the klipsch promedia's, I would love to hear about it.

Thanks guys.

[Bonaparte]

Please reconsider the Klipsches. I have a pair of Premedia 5.1s that have broken 3 times, and among 5 friends I know that bought x.1's, all have failed and needed repair at least once.

There was a technical flaw in the speakers a few years ago, and it has since largely been fixed, but anecdotally the failure rate on early models was 100%.

My problem is less than just that they made a design mistake, rather I found Klipsch minimally responsive. First of all they were less than contrite about returns over the phone, pretending that it was unusual, encouraging the user to pay for return shipping in a clearly defective product under warranty, etc.

My speakers broke a few months out of warranty, (for the third time in a few years), and they wouldn't replace them since the warranty was up. After several detailed emails from me, they all but admitted that they weren't made to last more than a few years. As someone who owns a full set of Klipsch home theater speakers, I wasn't too pleased to hear this, and have decided not to give them any more of my money.

For desktop speakers, I would consider Monsoon. But really, why not just buy a proper component receiver and some small desktop speakers used? Even a decent one a few decades old will outperform anything in the computer consumer electronics segment.

[nick-m]

I realize this is a T60 forum but I have to pitch in about the Klipsch Promedias too. I had the 5.1 set...very expensive, sounded very nice.
For six months.

After two 'repairs' on their behalf and a heck of a lot of hassle shipping them, they failed yet a third time. I gave up and bought something else. Don't waste your money - check their forum, and see how many people experience failures.

IMO another sound card would be worth it - I have a little USB one by Turtle Beach and it makes a significant difference when listening to my tunes. I have a pair of Sennheiser 595s.

[Somewhat Damaged]

Hey guys, thanks for checking in.

As a previous owner of the promedia 4.1's (i was in audio heaven with these) my audio experiences since then definitely haven't been as good, arguably until i got my grado SR80's (these are also bliss), but I want some great sound for when I'm NOT wearing headphones. After I lost them in the fire I told myself I would one day get them back and most likely get the 5.1

Which brings me to what you guys said. I'm very very aware of the issues of the Promedia 5.1 and it seems to be an issue mainly with JUST the 5.1 and 4.1 systems (even though the ones i had lasted 2+ years before being destroyed by the house fire). I'm sure it plays somewhat of a role into why they've stopped production on both the 4.1 and 5.1 promedia's...instead of simply just fixing the problem they've had with their amps. Also the fact that the market seems to have gone more towards the cheaper, booty shakin bass of logitech type speakers (ie: z5500), which I have no interest in getting after owning a set of the Promedia's.

Which brings me to the 2.1 Promedia's. Klipsch is still manufacturing them and they don't seem to have the amp/durability issues as the 4.1/5.1, and that's exactly why I'm looking to get the 2.1's. I just LOVE the sound the promedia's put out. Nothing else comes close.

I just want to know if there's a big difference from going from the soundMAX HD headphone jack (which i guess i'd have to use to plug in the promedia's) or buying the Echo Indigo (requiring me to remove my belkin pre n wireless adapter) and also shell out an extra 150 bucks?

If no one here has the answer, I guess the only way to find out is by trying it on my own.

[Somewhat Damaged]

I realize this is a T60 forum but I have to pitch in about the Klipsch Promedias too. I had the 5.1 set...very expensive, sounded very nice.
For six months.

After two 'repairs' on their behalf and a heck of a lot of hassle shipping them, they failed yet a third time. I gave up and bought something else. Don't waste your money - check their forum, and see how many people experience failures.

IMO another sound card would be worth it - I have a little USB one by Turtle Beach and it makes a significant difference when listening to my tunes. I have a pair of Sennheiser 595s.

Hmmm...what's the model of the turtle beach one you have? I wouldnt mind looking into a USB option..that'd be very convenient for me.

Did you also consider the Indigo?

[efrant]

You could also try this card by Creative: http://www.creative.com/products/produc ... duct=16642

It has excellent sound and, since it's an ExpressCard, you would still have your PCMCIA slot free to use with your Belkin card.

Edit: Assuming of course, that the Belkin card would fit into the PCMCIA slot when the ExpressCard slot is filled.

[hart22]

Damaged,

This is my first post, but I may have some useful suggestions as:
1. I've owned Klipsch ProMedia 4.1, 2.1 as well as Logitech ZS-2300 (2.1) speakers
2. I've had experience with add-on laptop cards (owner of a Audigy ZS 2 notebook card and auditioned Echo indigo on a friend's laptop)
3. I've tried several mid-to-high end headphones (grado 225s, AKG 601s, personally own Sennheiser 580s)

Some thoughts:
Correct me on this, but it seems like your main concern is superior sound quality for both headphones and *2.1* speakers (without needing the advanced audio editing features offered in add-on cards) while at the same time allowing you to still use your cardbus slot.

There may be a product you're unaware of that fits your needs slightly better than a add-on card, namely this: http://www.headphone.com/products/headp ... ithead.php

That standalone portable DAC (digital-audio converter) / headphone amplifier has several advantages over the Echo Indigo in your scenario:

1. It's DAC feature means it's a soundcard that runs from a USB slot, which means your cardbus is still free. Also, as I can personally attest with my Audigy ZS 2 notebook card an add-on card sticks out monstrously from a laptop and is very fragile to bend, and impossible to fit in normal sized carrying cases. (The USB feature is nice because no matter where Lenovo decides to stick that headphone jack - even in front like the T61 - you can always plug into the side or back)
2. It has 2 audio outs, so you can keep it on your desk with the speakers always plugged in, and plug in headphones as needed.
3. All electronic components of that BitHead are isolated from the internal electronic noise of your T60, and if you're considering a higher end Indigo card this will be a factor in audio quality between the two, as the electronic components used in the Indigo and the BitHead are of similar quality.
4. The headphone amplifier component is designed *specifically* for headphones, and is better than the headphone amp on the Indigo (lower impedance outs allowing for a higher transducer damping factor).
5. Even under USB power (it also runs off batteries) the BitHead draws less power than an add-on card, as it contains no components designed for advanced audio editing.

As for the ProMedia 2.1: They are definitely a lot more durable than the 4.1s I've owned. My 4.1s developed random hiss, left-right volume mismatch, and outright blew after a few years of use. I've had the 2.1s almost 5 years now with heavy use, and they still sound good. However, I have had to change the fuse in the 2.1, but that was probably due to a power surge. The satellite speakers on the 2.1s are the best computer speaker satellites I've ever heard (I assume because of the separate woofer/tweeter design), however the subwoofer on the Logitech ZS-2300 is better by far than the ProMedias, at least to me.

Hope that helps, and don't you find those Grados a little uncomfortable?

[Somewhat Damaged]

Damaged,

This is my first post, but I may have some useful suggestions as:
1. I've owned Klipsch ProMedia 4.1, 2.1 as well as Logitech ZS-2300 (2.1) speakers
2. I've had experience with add-on laptop cards (owner of a Audigy ZS 2 notebook card and auditioned Echo indigo on a friend's laptop)
3. I've tried several mid-to-high end headphones (grado 225s, AKG 601s, personally own Sennheiser 580s)

Some thoughts:
Correct me on this, but it seems like your main concern is superior sound quality for both headphones and *2.1* speakers (without needing the advanced audio editing features offered in add-on cards) while at the same time allowing you to still use your cardbus slot.

There may be a product you're unaware of that fits your needs slightly better than a add-on card, namely this: http://www.headphone.com/products/headp ... ithead.php

That standalone portable DAC (digital-audio converter) / headphone amplifier has several advantages over the Echo Indigo in your scenario:

1. It's DAC feature means it's a soundcard that runs from a USB slot, which means your cardbus is still free. Also, as I can personally attest with my Audigy ZS 2 notebook card an add-on card sticks out monstrously from a laptop and is very fragile to bend, and impossible to fit in normal sized carrying cases. (The USB feature is nice because no matter where Lenovo decides to stick that headphone jack - even in front like the T61 - you can always plug into the side or back)
2. It has 2 audio outs, so you can keep it on your desk with the speakers always plugged in, and plug in headphones as needed.
3. All electronic components of that BitHead are isolated from the internal electronic noise of your T60, and if you're considering a higher end Indigo card this will be a factor in audio quality between the two, as the electronic components used in the Indigo and the BitHead are of similar quality.
4. The headphone amplifier component is designed *specifically* for headphones, and is better than the headphone amp on the Indigo (lower impedance outs allowing for a higher transducer damping factor).
5. Even under USB power (it also runs off batteries) the BitHead draws less power than an add-on card, as it contains no components designed for advanced audio editing.

As for the ProMedia 2.1: They are definitely a lot more durable than the 4.1s I've owned. My 4.1s developed random hiss, left-right volume mismatch, and outright blew after a few years of use. I've had the 2.1s almost 5 years now with heavy use, and they still sound good. However, I have had to change the fuse in the 2.1, but that was probably due to a power surge. The satellite speakers on the 2.1s are the best computer speaker satellites I've ever heard (I assume because of the separate woofer/tweeter design), however the subwoofer on the Logitech ZS-2300 is better by far than the ProMedias, at least to me.

Hope that helps, and don't you find those Grados a little uncomfortable?

What an informative post. Thanks hart!

I'm definitely going to be leaning towards the promedia 2.1's, and as far as the sub goes, I hear that logitech subs are more 'boomy' rather than tight sounding bass. I haven't tested out the logitech z2300 myself so I can't comment, but I have heard the z5500 and found it to be quite boomy and a little overbearing.

As far as my audio needs go, you understood correctly, that I'm just looking for superior sound quality for my grado's *and* the 2.1's, and I definitely like the sound of the bithead, and will surely look into it now that you've brought it up, although at first glance the price is a bit steep at $199 USD so it might break the bank a little, but if it offers superior quality like you say it does, then it'll definitely be worth it.

How do you like your Audigy ZS 2 sound quality wise?

Also, since you've got the 2.1's as well, is there a noticeable difference in quality from plugging them directly into your thinkpads headphone out (thereby using the soundMAX HD integrated audio) and using your Audigy ZS 2?

If it's just a slight difference I'm not sure if I'm going to shell out the cash for any kind of an upgrade.

I also took a look at some reviews online of the turtle beach USB device that another poster above mentioned (audio advantage micro) and it *seems* like a nice little add on for 30 bucks, though i'm skeptical if there's any noticeable gains in audio quality. Let me know what your thoughts are on that if you've heard or tried it first hand.

As far as the grado's, they've served me quite well since getting them and I don't think i notice any real discomfort unless i've had them on for several hours, but I think that's to be expected.

[furrycute]

If portability is not a major concern, I would definitely go with an M-Audio USB audiophile external soundcard.

[hart22]

If you scroll to the bottom of the BitHead link you'll see they're on sale right now for $149.

I'm very happy with the Audigy 2 sound-wise, however I have to admit that I don't have any experience with the soundMAX High-Def audio. I've been looking at these forums as a potential first-time ThinkPad buyer, and so far excited about the prospect, but my current laptop uses a very old (read '03) integrated audio chip, so the difference I hear after switching to the Audigy is understandable. I will say this: the difference I notice between the Audigy and the integrated audio is MUCH bigger on my Sennheisers than my Promedias. I am somewhat familiar with the Grado line, more so with the SR 60s, but your SR 80s probably have much better sound quality and detail than any consumer grade computer speakers.

If your music is mainly encoded using a lossy format (ie. 192 kbps Mp3 or 128 kbps AAC), and you are wondering about the difference between the Audigy and the integrated T60 audio, the most important factor will probably be the output signal-to-noise ratio, as the other quality differences are mitigated by the lossy source. My old integrated audio had a very low signal-to-noise, and on headphones the hiss was very distracting. But the circuity of the Promedias attenuated this to a large extent. I can't find the exact specs right now but I recall seeing somewhere that the T60 integrated audio had a signal-to-noise somewhere in the 90+ dB range, which is far more than necessary for great sound except in rarefied audiophile circles.

The main advantage I envision in your case in using the BitHead would be the headphone amp. The enhanced clarity and detail of a dedicated amp is very significant, especially when using lossless sources such as FLAC or ALAC played using bit-exact streaming that bypasses the windows kernel mixer. In a blind ABX audio comparison I am completely unable to tell the difference between 192 kbps Mp3 and lossless FLAC when using my Sennheisers and the Audigy, whereas with the dedicated headphone amp I can tell the difference 95% of the time.

So you'd need to verify with the soundMAX audio yourself, but as far as I would be willing to guess no, a dedicated card such as the Audigy won't sound materially different than your integrated audio. However, the BitHead should sound much better than either one of those options.

[Somewhat Damaged]

Oh didn't notice the sale price.

Reading through the reviews of the bithead, and even some other headphone amps, it does seem like a really good solution.

As far as the soundMAX and audigy 2 ZS (for my desktop), this is going to make me sound like a total n00b, but I didn't realize that I had fiddled with the equalizer of the sound card when i first got my pc (2.5 years ago), so thats why the sound i was getting with my headphones through the headphone jack was sounding like crap.

SO, now that I've actually fixed it on the desktop, I can say that it does sound quite a bit better than the soundMAX HD audio on my laptop, though I don't imagine the soundMAX one being as horrible as previous incarnations of integrated audio chips.

That being said, I definitely want to take advantage of my headphones while the gf and I are living together (which means my desktop stays at my parents place) so I'm definitely looking towards getting the Total Bithead.

Now the issue with that is I'm not sure if it's sold anywhere in Toronto (maybe someone from here can point me in the right direction, maybe bay&bloor radio? Which is where I got my Grado's, one of the few places in toronto that sells them) so its possible that this store has them, but I'm hoping there's a cheaper alternative because anything from there will cost a lot more than usual. I don't really want to get them shipped from the US because I imagine I'd have to pay some sort of duty fee and taxes on top of that, which my wallet doesn't like.

Thanks again for your information. Just to confirm, as I suppose is expected, Audigy 2 ZS >> soundMAX HD. Would it be worth an upgrade? For me,yeah it would be..especially considering you can get the laptop audigy 2zs for a decent price. I imagine it has extremely similar output quality as my desktop version.

I imagine that the Total BitHead would also be an improvement over the audigy card...when I've figured out what I'm going to do I'll post here again, and when I've received it and set it all up, I'll also post my observations, though I'm by no means a longtime or expert audiophile. At this point in time I'd say I'm probably more of an audio enthusiast, than audiophile. I don't have the money for it! It's definitely not the cheapest hobby around.

[efrant]

Just to confirm, as I suppose is expected, Audigy 2 ZS >> soundMAX HD. Would it be worth an upgrade? For me,yeah it would be..especially considering you can get the laptop audigy 2zs for a decent price. I imagine it has extremely similar output quality as my desktop version.

I imagine that the Total BitHead would also be an improvement over the audigy card...when I've figured out what I'm going to do I'll post here again, and when I've received it and set it all up, I'll also post my observations, though I'm by no means a longtime or expert audiophile. At this point in time I'd say I'm probably more of an audio enthusiast, than audiophile. I don't have the money for it! It's definitely not the cheapest hobby around.

I would say that the X-Fi card (in the link I posted above) is far better. Here is a review of the desktop version: http://www.tomshardware.com/2005/08/18/creative_x/

Not sure of the cost though...

[Somewhat Damaged]

Just to confirm, as I suppose is expected, Audigy 2 ZS >> soundMAX HD. Would it be worth an upgrade? For me,yeah it would be..especially considering you can get the laptop audigy 2zs for a decent price. I imagine it has extremely similar output quality as my desktop version.

I imagine that the Total BitHead would also be an improvement over the audigy card...when I've figured out what I'm going to do I'll post here again, and when I've received it and set it all up, I'll also post my observations, though I'm by no means a longtime or expert audiophile. At this point in time I'd say I'm probably more of an audio enthusiast, than audiophile. I don't have the money for it! It's definitely not the cheapest hobby around.

I would say that the X-Fi card (in the link I posted above) is far better. Here is a review of the desktop version: http://www.tomshardware.com/2005/08/18/creative_x/

Not sure of the cost though...

Oh I'm sure it's better...I was actually answering my own question because i've got the audigy 2 ZS as my desktop soundcard and was just letting it be known in case people out there were wondering to upgrade their laptop sound. If you've got good quality headphones (not the sony, koss, panasonic etc crap), then for people not quite wanting to spend the money for the creative X-Fi card, the audigy 2 zs is noticeably better..its pretty cheap for laptops also from what i've seen.

I'm looking to spend up to 200 bucks on an amp now that it's been brought to my attention since it'll be much more versatile than just being used on a laptop.

[hart22]

If money is a concern and you're looking for the best of both worlds -- features/flexibility of an add-on card + improved sound for headphones from an amp -- you could consider getting a DIY headphone amp off Ebay or HeadWize forums (www.headwize.com).

Search for "CMoy" in Ebay and look at the custom made headphone amp designs available for purchase, usually around $25-40 shipping included. (Wiki CMoy for a little more info on those.) My first headphone setup was the Audigy notebook through an Ebay CMoy, and the sound was great, similar to the BitHead, albeit missing some important things given my needs.

Important things to look for in a CMoy amp: decent op-amp chip (Burr-Brown 2227 is best, 2134 also good), a volume control, and the ability to run off a DC wall plug, so you don't constantly need batteries.

I imagine that the Total BitHead would also be an improvement over the audigy card...when I've figured out what I'm going to do I'll post here again, and when I've received it and set it all up, I'll also post my observations, though I'm by no means a longtime or expert audiophile. At this point in time I'd say I'm probably more of an audio enthusiast, than audiophile. I don't have the money for it! It's definitely not the cheapest hobby around.

Please do, I've very interested in the sound results you get from your T60, as that's much more important to me than gaming/DVD features in a laptop.

[furrycute]

From an audio purity point of view, most of the Creative soundcards are a no-no, because Creative soundcards resample everything to 24bit, regardless of the music file's original bit rate.

With regard to the Headroom amps, they don't usually give you pristine sound until you get to their mid level stuff which is usually around $400-$500 range.

If you want to go with an external DAC plus headphone amp route, the Benchmark DAC-1 (external DAC) is very highly regarded. The built in headphone amp on that one is pretty good, but it leans a bit too much on the side of accuracy, so unless your headphone is kind of mellow, plugging your everyday headphone into the DAC's headphone out will give you a very bright sound. You can pair the Benchmark with one of the Headroom's mid range headphone amps.

An all in one solution would be the Grace 902m. It has both a DAC and a headphone amp. The DAC section in the Grace is not as good as the DAC section in the Benchmark, but the headphone amp section of the Grace is far more superior, it wont sound harsh.


And with regard to the Grado headphones, they are not known for accurate sound reproduction. I would consider trying out some higher end Sennheisers, such as the HD580 or the HD600. You can even give HD595 a try.

Headphone amps are really needed to drive high impedance headphones such as the HD580, HD600. For low impedance headphones (your everyday headphones including the HD595) you wont see as much of a benefit in using an external headphone amp.

[DavidNY]

I have two T60s, one headphone out is OK. The other makes minor clicking sounds, but they can pretty much only be heard on headphones with nothing playing. (I'm using Beyerdynamic DT831s at home and Westone UM2 IEMs on the road)

When I'm not using headphones, I just hook the headphone out to an old RS amp and speakers, it sounds fair enough for everyday, and if I need better sound I can just use the headphones.

[furrycute]

Just found out, Benchmark DAC-1 now comes with a USB connector built in. So you just hook up the DAC-1 to your laptop via USB connection, and voila, you have studio grade audio right out of your laptop.

http://extra.benchmarkmedia.com/wiki/in ... /Main_Page

Here's something to read about computer audio.

[dataminer]

Hi SD, I've just got my first laptop, a T60, and have been researching notebook soundcards too.
The best one I've found so far is the "M-Audio Transit" It's a nice affordable USB unit.
http://www.minidisc-canada.com/shopexd.asp?id=272
I would also like to say that I've had the Klipsch ProMedia 4.1's
for over 3 yrs. and find them to be excellent computer speakers.
The only problem I've had is the volume can be a little staticy
when turning the dial. Not a big deal.

[hart22]

I'm surprised at how many people are interested in upgrading the sound on the ThinkPad line, as it's always pigeonholed as a "business" machine. It must be somewhat like the gaming that gets done on these machines as well. Are there many people who use their ThinkPad for semi-serious sound playback, and what kind of results are they getting? I'm mainly interested in the T6x series, but I'd like to know how different setups work with these, as the only multimedia I really use often is audio.

http://extra.benchmarkmedia.com/wiki/in ... /Main_Page

Here's something to read about computer audio.

FC: that's a good read. How are the results with your DAC-1?

Here's a reference I use often:
http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/

[furrycute]

I had a Benchmark DAC-1 a couple of years ago. At that time the DAC-1 didn't have a built in USB connector, so I had to use an external Yamaha USB soundcard, and then use that soundcard's digital out to connect to the DAC-1.

And then I had the DAC-1 hooked up to two monoblock amplifiers. That was the heart of my stereo system.

The convenience of that system couldn't be beat. I ripped all my CDs to lossless compression formats such as APE or FLAC, and kept them on an external USB drive. So you have instantaneous access to all your albums at your fingertip.

The sound was just phenomenal out of my two floorstanders.

At the time I also had a pair of Sennheiser HD600 headphone. The sound right out of DAC-1's headphone out was a bit bright. Perhaps that was because the DAC-1's headphone out gave you a very flat response, and some people don't like that kind of music presentation and find that to be "bright." Later on I added a stereo preamp to the chain, and plugged my headphone to the headphone out on that stereo preamp. That attenuated the brightness factor quite a bit. Very enjoyable sound.

[tommy d]

I use my laptop as a DAW and from my perspective there is very little value to be found in the computer speaker market.

With a budget in mind I bought a pair of Aleisis MK II passive speakers for $199.00 (links at bottom) and a FANLESS Behringer 500w digital refernce amp with a massive toroid and Fairchild transistors for $199.00.

This system is excellent for computers because the monitors are near field (aka designed for a short distance from your face) with ultra linear frequency response and have excellent imaging (imaging meaning that when I move a stereo track 5% to the left, I can hear it move). The speakers are extraordanarily loud as I use them for mixing tracks but also playing guitar and 5-string bass. The speakers remain sparkly and tight at high volumes even on the low B of the bass.

I can say with confidence that no computer speakers will do this at any price because the cross-over on the sub will be hinky and the bass mushy but nonetheless loud and the tweats less than silky.

Other products that I can highly recommend are the Event TR8 on up and the Mackie HR824. Both of these recommendations are amplified: I went with passive because I anticipate repurposing the Behringer amp on occasion because it is bridgeable and will make a fine modeling or sub amp if I require.

Be warned! Once you listen to real audio equipment you will never go back and it can get expensive!!! but on the other hand it will last until your drunken buddy decides to really crank up that Iron Maiden song he hasn't heard in twenty years (not a true story but you get the picture).


http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/ ... sku=480780
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/ ... c=3SOSWXXA

[tommy d]

Having addressed the speakers....

Users will find that there is always a detectable amount of PCI activity through the sound card especially when the HDD is accessed - I find this maddening. The pitfall with good speakers or headphones is that you can hear all this stuff.

To the best of my knowledge (admittedly incomplete) there is not a product available in USB or PCMCIA that overcomes the PCI noise problem but there are many 1394 solutions which are completely silent in terms of bus noise and offer the added benefit of off-loading CPU intensive audio processes - this has been going on for many years and Xi-Fi was not the first but the most advanced in some respects. Thinkpads are an ideal platform for audio because of the quality physical construction and the consistent use of Texas Instrument chipsets.

For the casual user who loves music try the M-Audio or PreSonus firewire solutions. I own the PreSonus FirePod and it is excellent - the FireBox is about $300 is cheaper and has the same ASIO engine and nice pre-amps for podcasting (and guitars, turntables, mics, etc).

In conclusion, PC audio is generally adequate but if you allow yourself to listen and get picky then don't look to the PC market for solutions that sound truly sweet and offer the power of a audio work station at nearly the same price as the PC market offerings.

Thanks for your time and sorry about the long thread but I had to get it off my chest:)

[pae77]

Couple of questions. If one decides to go the firewire route, wouldn't one need to connect a firewire pcmcia or express card to the TP to obtain the requisite firewire port? And, if so, then are you saying that the pci noise is not passed on through the firewire card?

Btw, completely agree about your general point wrt pro audio equipment. I did some amateur recording work with my TP connected to a mackie mixer, hafler amp and tannoy speakers (among other things) and after listening to music on that set up for a while, I couldn't believe how muddy and crappy my regular powered computer speakers sounded.

[tommy d]

sorry, i was working under the assumption of an existing 1394 but it is no big deal to add one via pcmcia or expresscard provided you purchase a quality card with a texas instrument chipset. SIIG makes a couple of nice ones, ~ $70.00. some manufacturers say that VIA makes a good chipset but i have found them to be unreliable at times. I bought my R60 specifrically because it had the texas instrument 1394.

1394 does not transfer pci bus noise in my experience and the added ASIO engines allow for a lot of power that is a joy to work with.

another cool thing about 1394 is that it is generally mac compatible and requires less processing power than an equivalent usb product.

hope this helps

Tannoy are awesome speakers, I should have added them to my short list. In fact, your whole list is a good setup.

[Somewhat Damaged]

Tommy d is an evil, evil man.

Reading through several reviews on some of the things you have mentioned throughout your posts (ie: alesis MKII, benchmark DAC-1 etc), I definitely see myself going the route of saving up enough to get them (eventually!). I definitely view this as an investment and would be much more useful for the longer term instead of the klipsch promedia's.

oh boy.

This type of a setup, oddly enough, may actually be a catalyst of sorts into pushing me to produce some of my own music. I'm such a huge fan of music (basically every genre you can think of, outside of country) that I think of it as a travesty that I haven't been more involved on my end. It's definitely something I'd want to do on the side. As far as how musically inclined I am, I guess I'll eventually find out!

Oh while reading about other speakers, i came across the behringer truths. Any thoughts on those?

[tommy d]

Sorry Dude!

What instrument do you play? I play guitar and bass. Last year I bought a Roland G-20 so that I can trigger MIDI modules with my guitar, very fun and I am not limited to the hardware sounds by Roldand but I can also trigger software synths on my computer (with some envelope tweaking). I've been getting paid to play for about 25 years but have resisted going full time (or big time) because I think the road really sucks. For most of my musical life I just played Friday and Saturday which was great - all the girls and fun but none of the hassle of living out of a box and I got a degree in biochemistry and am almost done with a JD. Music is a really good stress reliever and life balance is ultimately what I'm after

Re Value... I have pro audio equipment that I bought over ten years ago and it still gives me great satasfaction when I use it. Can you honestly make the same claims for computer equipment? What I'm getting at is audio equipment is a different type of investment so the money you spend retains it's "pimp factor" much, much longer than say a vid card or a T60.

Behringer: I absolutely love Behringer for value and overall quality. They are a company that is leveraging globalization in the most common sense way: German engineering & Chinese Manufacturing. I have never had a problem with their gear and they have a pretty active yahoo forum presence for some of their products: V-amp and FCB1010.

If you must go cheap, Behringer is a good choice. If you have a little discipline save up for the Event TR8. They are awesome! My buddy, a professional live sound engineer (on Tour with recluse Steely Dan right now - back stage for tommy d!!!) has these in his home studio and they are simply panty dropping nice. He has a 1000w servo sub that he doesn't really use and I have embarrased myself more than once commenting on how nice the bass is from that sub only to be told that the sub wasn't on.

Check it!

For now, buy the best speakers you can afford and skimp on the 1394 until you have established your musical needs. The speakers you will have forever, but your muse may leave you...

[thedogwarrior]

I've been very happy with my Logitech USB Headphone 350's; got a sound card built into the cable running to the headphones. http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/produ ... NTID=10013

I picked them up at Office Depot a few months ago, closeout for $20 (for some reason) but very nice sound, better than the built-in's for sure.

[Somewhat Damaged]

Sorry Dude!

What instrument do you play? I play guitar and bass. Last year I bought a Roland G-20 so that I can trigger MIDI modules with my guitar, very fun and I am not limited to the hardware sounds by Roldand but I can also trigger software synths on my computer (with some envelope tweaking). I've been getting paid to play for about 25 years but have resisted going full time (or big time) because I think the road really sucks. For most of my musical life I just played Friday and Saturday which was great - all the girls and fun but none of the hassle of living out of a box and I got a degree in biochemistry and am almost done with a JD. Music is a really good stress reliever and life balance is ultimately what I'm after

Re Value... I have pro audio equipment that I bought over ten years ago and it still gives me great satasfaction when I use it. Can you honestly make the same claims for computer equipment? What I'm getting at is audio equipment is a different type of investment so the money you spend retains it's "pimp factor" much, much longer than say a vid card or a T60.

Behringer: I absolutely love Behringer for value and overall quality. They are a company that is leveraging globalization in the most common sense way: German engineering & Chinese Manufacturing. I have never had a problem with their gear and they have a pretty active yahoo forum presence for some of their products: V-amp and FCB1010.

If you must go cheap, Behringer is a good choice. If you have a little discipline save up for the Event TR8. They are awesome! My buddy, a professional live sound engineer (on Tour with recluse Steely Dan right now - back stage for tommy d!!!) has these in his home studio and they are simply panty dropping nice. He has a 1000w servo sub that he doesn't really use and I have embarrased myself more than once commenting on how nice the bass is from that sub only to be told that the sub wasn't on.

Check it!

For now, buy the best speakers you can afford and skimp on the 1394 until you have established your musical needs. The speakers you will have forever, but your muse may leave you...

You'll get a kick out of this, but I currently play no instruments. I'm hoping that when I've got the time I can take up guitar lessons. I don't know if I'll ever have the time to become good at any of this since I've got such a wide array of different things I love doing (yes, I'm a gemini), so we'll have to see. But again, music is such a big part of my life, that I do want to be more involved somehow...so whether its learning an instrument, or just putting some music together on a computer, I've gotta do SOMETHING.

For the time being I'll just make do without anything special and then perhaps in a couple of months I'll invest in a pair of monitors, and get a sweet DAC amp (ie: benchmark dac-1), so that'll be quite a bit of cash spent there.

I tend to get carried away with these little hobbies and want the absolute best, which obviously gets pricey. Thank god for the time being I've been really been bogged down with studying and haven't had time to do much else. So, for now, this has been put on the backburner.