Should I wait for X61 tablet?

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pudding · #1 Post by **pudding** » Sat May 19, 2007 1:23 pm

I'm a college student and I'm going to get a Thinkpad tablet. However, I'm not sure whether I should wait for X61 or get the X60 now. I haven't came across any Santa Rosa benchmarks that indicate a noticeable increase in battery life. Therefore I would like to ask for your opinion on whether I should wait to get X61. It would be great if you could comment on the performance of X60 with Core Duo on Vista and the average battery life. One more thing I would like to ask for your opinion is whether SXGA would be a better choice for note taking.

Thank you all very much.

tamasrepus · #2 Post by **tamasrepus** » Sat May 19, 2007 4:24 pm

It's pretty clear Santa Rosa as yet has not provided any increase in battery life.

The rest of your questions are very subjective... the best one to answer them is yourself.

One thing you've not mentioned how incredibly cheap the X60 tablet is right now with Lenovo's current 25%-off Memorial Day sale. I doubt the X61t will be this cheap for a long time.

Trekk69 · #3 Post by **Trekk69** » Sat May 19, 2007 6:34 pm

Personally, I am also waiting for the X61 tablet for school in the fall. I'm hoping the battery life won't be a problem as it is for the T61, and that Santa Rosa is all its cracked up to be.

ymarker · #4 Post by **ymarker** » Sat May 19, 2007 6:58 pm

Well I start school late summer/early fall and got the x60 tablet with c2d chip. I don't like certain things about it.

It's heavy. Not quite as light as the x60 non-tablet version. There is a hairline gap around the screen and the frame. Typically this isn't an issue but if you're scrolling down a web page the stylus falls in that groove and you've got to yank it out. It heats up quite a bit. The TV on vista ultimate stutters/jitters (see seperate thread). I'm trying to return it back to lenovo and see if I can get the newer x61. Hopefully they fixed some of these things. Don't worry about "deals" They pop up more than you think.

I like the SD card slot. I've got a treo 700wx with a 4gb sd card and I can take that puppy out and slide it in the x60 to transfer stuff. It's much faster than BT/USB. The 1400x1050 50hz sucks. It makes the text pretty small (maybe I need

)

BTW this is my 4th tablet, but first thinkpad.

tamasrepus · #5 Post by **tamasrepus** » Sat May 19, 2007 7:02 pm

ymarker wrote: Don't worry about "deals" They pop up more than you think.

Actually not really... I've been watching prices since last November, and right now is the cheapest they've been. Computer prices tend to be cheapest in the spring and early summer, with the demand of the back-to-school and Christmas seasons artificially driving prices back up.

pianowizard · #6 Post by **pianowizard** » Sat May 19, 2007 7:03 pm

ymarker wrote:The 1400x1050 50hz sucks. It makes the text pretty small (maybe I need )

Actually, for many people including me, that's the best feature of the X60 tablet. I wish there was such an option for the X60s.

pudding · #7 Post by **pudding** » Sun May 20, 2007 11:51 am

ymarker, you said the refreshing rate for SXGA is only 50Hz, wouldn't this low refreshing rate induce eye strain? Also, is it worth the $50 to upgrade to c2d from cd?

tamasrepus · #8 Post by **tamasrepus** » Sun May 20, 2007 12:32 pm

pudding wrote:ymarker, you said the refreshing rate for SXGA is only 50Hz, wouldn't this low refreshing rate induce eye strain? Also, is it worth the $50 to upgrade to c2d from cd?

Not sure whether that 50 Hz refresh rate bit is true, but LCDs operate differently than do CRTs, so the short answer is that no you will not have any eye strain (nor if it was only 15 Hz, which is the Hz for many LCD cell phones).

You'd only notice it with gaming, where you'd effectively be locked at 50 FPS (frames per second). The X60t/X61t are not gaming portables anyway.

SFWrtr · #9 Post by **SFWrtr** » Sun May 20, 2007 7:29 pm

Refreshing of LCDs is (potentially) more interesting than you think. One of the new energy saving strategies in the new 965 chip set used for the video is the ability to cut the refresh rate in half when there isn't much going on. The crystals need to twist to keep the image sharp, but only so often. (Intel press releases can be interesting if you are a technophile.) In any case, to the best of my knowledge, refresh rate is not an eyestrain issue on laptops.

BTW, I am one of those waiting for the X61T...

ymarker · #10 Post by **ymarker** » Sun May 20, 2007 9:09 pm

pudding wrote:ymarker, you said the refreshing rate for SXGA is only 50Hz, wouldn't this low refreshing rate induce eye strain? Also, is it worth the $50 to upgrade to c2d from cd?

My previous (non-thinkpad) lappy was core duo from work. You'll read that c2d is better and perhaps it is. I can't say my x60 zips along much faster as I haven't done any quantitative benchmarks. I'm sure you could google it. Though for $50 it's not such a big deal to not get it.

@SFWrtr - interesting note on refresh rates on the new chipset.

BTW, I'm calling Lenovo tomorrow to see if they'll take this x60 back.

iannis · #11 Post by **iannis** » Mon May 21, 2007 2:43 am

anyone else experiencing the same problems ymarker is discribing?
Th hairline gap and the excessive heat issue, i would be very interested into wich X60/ X60s has these heat problems and who don't.
Is there a way to get all the users of this serie, maybe trough a poll, to enlighten us about this issue, is everybody experiencing these for instance redhot palmrests???
Of course i am not only asking this for the sake of humanity, but also i am really planning on geting myself one.
Can someone also explain to me how to get myself an Ultralight version of this series??
All of them are IPS screens are they not?, so i don't have to wory about not getting a non IPS screen.....do i?

Thanks,

fuscob · #12 Post by **fuscob** » Mon May 21, 2007 8:28 am

I am in the same situation as the original poster in this thread. I do not know whether I should wait for the X61t or just get the X60t. If I did get the X60t, it would be the C2D with 2GB of RAM. I have a feeling that I will save quite a bit of money getting the X60t now.

Like the last poster, I'm also wondering about the problems ymarker cites with the X60t. Can anyone corroborate these?

I'm coming from a MacBook (shameless eBay plug), and I can't decide whether I want something small with a long battery life or a bigger, more powerful machine. When I look at it, it's hard to justify a 1.5GHz machine for the same price as a 2.4GHz (T61). Does anyone have advice on X60t vs. T61?

Thanks!

milstein · #13 Post by **milstein** » Mon May 21, 2007 10:37 am

I'm planning to get a Thinkpad Tablet too, while I have a T43 & a T60
I think the tablet can handle every day computing really well, and my plan is to exploit it for "every where" computing: reading, browsing, writing, coding, simple image editing, light data processing --- in whatever places that I like

my T60 or future T series will dedicate to those heavier task, such as huge file data processing, image processing, etc

The X tablet series are now carrying the highest quality screens in Thinkpad after the IPS: If I know there will be any degrade of the screen quality in the X tablet series, I shall immediately get a X60 tablet without hesitation

ymarker · #14 Post by **ymarker** » Mon May 21, 2007 10:46 am

Just an update. My RMA is confirmed though oddly the email says it's valid for 10 days but CS says I'm good as long as I return within 30 days of the RMA issue date. She said she'll email me the label so I don't have to pay shipping but it hasn't arrived yet.

She wouldn't give me any details on the x61t.

SFWrtr · #15 Post by **SFWrtr** » Mon May 21, 2007 10:57 am

fuscob wrote:I am in the same situation as the original poster in this thread. I do not know whether I should wait for the X61t<snip>

The way I figure the X60T vs. the X61T is the following.

1. The business can afford the money for a X61T, so I don't have to get the bargain.
2. The laptop will see 4 years service so I need to get it as well stocked as possible.
3. The X61T supports 64-bit OS, which I will get preinstalled.
4. The 1.60GHz L7500 is likely as fast or faster than the 1.83GHz L2500.
5. New sleep characteristics of the CPU and chipset should eventually translate into better battery life once MS handles its infant OS's growing pains. (Poor little baby Vista.)
6. The X3100 video chip is a vast improvement in performance over the GM950 in the X60 and it ought to make DVD watching and video editing almost reasonable. (Of course, if I required good video performance, as in gamer use, I would go with a T series instead.)
7. Internal Turbo memory support. Okay, that's iffy and uses the slot for the WWAN built-in, which I want, but if it is offered, the Lenovo blogs team say it would be a real performer.

Re: Flaws in system temp and hair fracture. If the fracture or sep is on the bezel, that is likely a warranty item. Please call Lenovo customer service. (There is supposed to be a sep on the back or edge, I don't remember where, that is pressure relief for when you stack too many books on top of your laptop.) The heat... Running a full speed, the system will probably get hot. That's physics for you (esp. if you have the fast CPU and 2-4G memory), and its one of the reasons why when in battery mode (when you would be carrying it), the system throttles down. If the heat feels excessive, again, call Lenovo while it is still under warranty. I understand they are much more friendly than the DELL support I'm hoping to ditch real soon.

ymarker · #16 Post by **ymarker** » Mon May 21, 2007 4:09 pm

SFWrtr wrote:...Re: Flaws in system temp and hair fracture. If the fracture or sep is on the bezel, that is likely a warranty item. Please call Lenovo customer service. (There is supposed to be a sep on the back or edge, I don't remember where, that is pressure relief for when you stack too many books on top of your laptop.) The ....

Just to clarify, the gap is in between the glass and the surrounding frame. It's small but small enough for the stylus to fall in there. Imagine a picture frame where the glass is just a hairline shy all around such that there is a minute gap all around between the glass and the frame. I sent it back for repairs x2. The second time (upon escalation) the repair guy called - which suprised me - he said this was an engineering issue and verified that other x60t's also have it. Now, 99% of the time this won't be an issue asyour stylus won't go near the edge of the screen. The other 3 tablets I've had did not have this issue.

On Vista x64 Ultimate - I had a lot of trouble trying to get that installed on x60t. There are some drivers that they have that are native x64, but a lot aren't. I imagine they'll eventually get there - hopefully x61t will take us there esp since they are offering preinstalls.

I'm wondering if I should get the slower 5400 RPM drive on the x61t. I currently have the 7200RPM but I'm wondering how much additional battery drain/heat it causes. Plus I can get a larger size. The turbo cache (if available) should help with boot times I imagine. BTW, I got the 8 cell and it probably adds to the weight but I can't imagine using 4 cel esp with Vista. They really need to tweak the power usage since I hardly get 3-4 hours (with wireless on). Another issue that should be alleviated with x61t, I hope.

fuscob · #17 Post by **fuscob** » Mon May 21, 2007 5:20 pm

Thanks for all the input so far. A little bit of unsettling news; my boss has an X60t and it has the problem where the lower 1/3rd of the screen "shakes." He figured out that if you pinch the screen just a bit, it stops, but once you let go it starts again. I have heard of this problem before - is it a big problem (i.e. can I expect it to happen if I get an X60t?)

pudding · #18 Post by **pudding** » Mon May 21, 2007 5:26 pm

ymaker, on the issue of 5400 RPM vs. 7200 RPM, I was reading a post on gottabemobile.com when X60t first came out and if I remember correctly, the number from Lenovo is that you would get about 15min more with the 5400 RPM hard drive on XP. I'd think it's probably the same for Vista.

SFWrtr · #19 Post by **SFWrtr** » Mon May 21, 2007 9:43 pm

pudding wrote:ymaker, ... from Lenovo is that you would get about 15min more with the 5400 RPM hard drive...

This is conventional wisdom, and to an extent is probably true. Nevertheless, there has been dramatic changes in the electrical characteristics of mobile drives in the last year. I've examined the number of watts drawn by drives with different in rotational speed and capacity. The difference is minor (over coming the additional inertia to spin up from 5400 to 7200). Chances are the 7200 version of the drive Lenovo picks will draw no more than the 5400. The difference comes down to price. If we knew the manufacturer part number... Does anybody know what drives are in the X60T. Again, chances are that hasn't changed. A quick comparison of the manufacturer spec sheets for X60T drives would definitively answer the question.

From my study, I'm okay with going for 7200 when I buy my X60T. I/O bound operations are a major performance sink.

new2tablet · #20 Post by **new2tablet** » Tue May 22, 2007 10:21 am

ymarker wrote:

On Vista x64 Ultimate - I had a lot of trouble trying to get that installed on x60t. There are some drivers that they have that are native x64, but a lot aren't. I imagine they'll eventually get there - hopefully x61t will take us there esp since they are offering preinstalls.

ymarker, I have some questions regarding Vista 6t4 on the x60 since you have already gone through the ropes.

1. Could you use someone else's Vista 64 bit install DVD and the serial number lenovo provides for you?

2. Was the operating system stable? Were there some major things that didn't function?

3. Did you notice any performance gains or faster booting times?

4. Were you still limited to 3 GB of addressable RAM, i.e. is the limit a chipset issue or an OS issue?

Thanks for anyone who has had success (or failure) in these endeavors.

gdavis · #21 Post by **gdavis** » Tue May 22, 2007 12:36 pm

I had the understanding that one could not load 64bit Windows on prior x60t machines since the processors would not handle it. I thought that with the Santa Rosa processor on the x61t or s, this began the ability to run either 32bit or 64 bit windows.

Is that incorrect?

I am hoping to run 64bit when I get the x61t and am hoping that there won't be problems with print drivers or other peripheral support softwares to interface with my office or elsewhere with items, etc.

Does anyone know about the status of these drivers and other extra things that would be needed in the 64bit environment?

new2tablet · #22 Post by **new2tablet** » Tue May 22, 2007 12:58 pm

gdavis wrote:I had the understanding that one could not load 64bit Windows on prior x60t machines since the processors would not handle it. I thought that with the Santa Rosa processor on the x61t or s, this began the ability to run either 32bit or 64 bit windows.

Is that incorrect?

The L7400 is a core 2 duo, which support 64-bit operating. However, Lenovo only supplies 32-bit vista and is sketchy as to whether or not many of the drivers for the computer would work on the X60 w/64. Hence, if you want 64-bit computing, best to wait for x61. It will come standard. I on the other hand am quite happy with the x60 L7400...

gdavis · #23 Post by **gdavis** » Tue May 22, 2007 3:12 pm

Are there older printers (like 1-2 years old) from HP or other companies which might need special drivers to run in 64 vista?

Also, what about applications like the NY Times reader software or other non-microsoft applications? Do they need to be specially made for 64 bit operating environment?

fuscob · #24 Post by **fuscob** » Tue May 22, 2007 10:09 pm

gdavis wrote:Are there older printers (like 1-2 years old) from HP or other companies which might need special drivers to run in 64 vista?

Also, what about applications like the NY Times reader software or other non-microsoft applications? Do they need to be specially made for 64 bit operating environment?

Yes, there are even some brand-new HP printers without fully compatible Vista drivers. Drivers and software are two issues that you may have to worry about with Vista, and especially so with x64.

ymarker · #25 Post by **ymarker** » Wed May 23, 2007 8:14 am

new2tablet wrote:
ymarker wrote:

1. AFAIK, DVDs aren't tied to a specific serial #. I dont see why not.

2. Stable enough to use, sure. It's the little things. Getting the tablet button drivers to work and such.

3. Can't say.

4. I have 2gb so didn't run into that issue.

Probably not the definitive answers you were looking for, but if you can wait for another week, the x61 announcement should be official.

Also on Vista x64, most apps are NOT have native x64 despite whatn start64 and vista64 and those other sites tell you. If you go into task manager you'll see they are 32 bit apps. Heck even office 2007 is still 32bit. Even antivirus s/w that claim 64 bit may have certain components that are still 32bit. You may know that M$ live one care does not install on x64.

gdavis · #26 Post by **gdavis** » Wed May 23, 2007 4:09 pm

If I want to install 4 megs (edited: 4gigs!) of RAM, don't I have to be using vista in 64bit?

If I do that, then drivers will probably be a problem and programs won't run in 64 bit, correct?

Will 32bit software work in 64 bit Vista?

my-cool · #27 Post by **my-cool** » Wed May 23, 2007 4:29 pm

In response to

<< If I want to install 4 megs of RAM, don't I have to be using vista in << 64bit?

<< If I do that, then drivers will probably be a problem and programs << won't run in 64 bit, correct?

<< Will 32bit software work in 64 bit Vista?

I hope you mean 4 gigs of ram not 4 megs...I have heard that Vista is a little slow on anything under 8-meg

.

Now seriously...I don't know what the big fuss over the 64-Bit version of Vista is. What would I gain from 64-Bit computing?

<><
michael

SFWrtr · #28 Post by **SFWrtr** » Wed May 23, 2007 9:53 pm

Vista allows access to 4GB of RAM (on a ThinkPad, on a PC 128GB). All earlier Windows are restricted to 3GB.

Speed and security ought to be better in 64-bit environment. Eventually, all apps will migrate that direction. There are some driver issues now, esp. for small company hardware, but many vendors are issuing drivers for 64-bit. One other factor is that if the OS comes pre-installed on your ThinkPad, you don't have to worry about upgrade problems going from 32 to 64 bit.

smvp6459 · #29 Post by **smvp6459** » Wed May 23, 2007 11:09 pm

SFWrtr wrote:Vista allows access to 4GB of RAM (on a ThinkPad, on a PC 128GB). All earlier Windows are restricted to 3GB.

Vista allows access to 4GB of RAM on a chipset that supports 4GB of RAM. That means that until the Santa Rosa machines are available, no operating system can see 4GB of RAM in a Thinkpad.

SFWrtr · #30 Post by **SFWrtr** » Thu May 24, 2007 3:42 am

64-Bit Vista supports 4GB and more on 64-bit capable CPU. The Core 2 Duo (non-Santa Rosa) can also support 64-bit. The fact is, it is Windows XP and its predecessors that do not support the extra space from 3GB to 4GB. As I understand it, when the compromise was made that allowed the move from 640K to a segmented and then to a flat model, the DOS designers mapped the 3-4GB range to memory mapped I/O. Drivers have used that ever since. They thought, and who could blame them, when would anybody ever be able to build a machine with more than a GB of memory?! In other words, the restriction is only a restriction for Windows. Given sufficient address lines, a program could access all of memory. That said, I think Linux could use the entire 4GB on the X60.

(Now I may have got my facts half-right or half-wrong... I'd do further research before quoting me. Still, I think that's the gist of it. Somebody feel free to correct me.)

Should I wait for X61 tablet?

Should I wait for X61 tablet?

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