War or Peace - not tolstoy

[BillMorrow]

The techno-industrial economies will be at the mercy of OPEC -- not an OPEC dominated by the ed ucated, rational Saudis of today, but an OPEC dominated by the Jihadis.

Some people say the same about the Zionists. That they want to "rule the world, the economy, blah, blah, blah...." You see? It seems almost the same story but with other characters.

ANY religious fundamentalism just plain flies in the face of reality..

some need a higher authority to be their guide in life..
for me, duty, honor, country seems sufficient..

Do you want gas in your car? Do you want heating oil next winter? Do you want the dollar to be worth anything? You had better hope the Jihad, the Muslim Inquisition, loses, and the Islamic Reformation wins.

That seems to be the point IMO. It's not about Freedom or building a democracy in Iraq or fighting terrorism. Just about the oil and sustaining a lifestyle and economy.

Dethrone Saddam was a major priority, I agree with that. But like K.Eng I don't believe that war on terror should be fought on Iraq. It's more like they are trying to make Iraq the 51st state of America while Afghanistan, Iran, Korea and who knows which more countries who can be working on nukes, terror, suicide attacks, etc. are left apart.

IMO saddam, while a horror had spawned a double horror in his sons..

i guess i need to paraphrase rumsfeld abnd say that you fight the battles with the tools you have, or more to the point, each in turn..
with appropriate tools..
N. Korea and iran are different animals..
diplomacy with both but different diplomacy and for different reasons..

shucks, i think if you orffer kim il sung a manhattan penthouse, a fleet of exotic cars and hot short blond women he would abdicate and move to manhattan and give up N korea..

iran needs a bad guy to survive and we are the bad guy du jure..
same for chavez and venezuela..
these two yahoos need a bad guy to kick around and we are it for this century..

and we're not going to war with either unless iran actually DOES come up with nuclear weapons and then all bets are off and i am digging a hole..!

who knows, maybe there is another huge oil deposit offshore in the polar region..

but for now i think i will plan for high fuel prices and diminishing supplies..

[tomh009]

who knows, maybe there is another huge oil deposit offshore in the polar region..

Hey, that one's ours!

[qviri]

Not if the Russians have their say...

[tomh009]

I guess we'll have to share ...

[anthean]

Some people say the same about the Zionists. That they want to "rule the world, the economy, blah, blah, blah...." You see? It seems almost the same story but with other characters.

ANY religious fundamentalism just plain flies in the face of reality..

Just to make clear, Zionism began as an essentially secular movement in response to European anti-semitism. The founder of modern Zionism, Theodore Herzl, came from an assimilated family that even celebrated Christmas. (See speech by Rabbi Samuel M. Stahl at http://www.beth-elsa.org/be_s0314.htm)

[BillMorrow]

Just to make clear, Zionism began as an essentially secular movement in response to European anti-semitism. The founder of modern Zionism, Theodore Herzl, came from an assimilated family that even celebrated Christmas. (See speech by Rabbi Samuel M. Stahl at http://www.beth-elsa.org/be_s0314.htm)

i stand corrected..

[Melvyn]

Well, I'm not here to flame, only let's do memory:

1) Saddam was trained and supported by US in the '80s
2) Osama was trained and supported by US in '70s and later.
3) In the same way that we see them as awfull and all that, they see us.
4) Our dependency of their oil can't be solved with war. Let improve our technology and find alternative ways. The oil isn't forever.
5) Have you think something about this: a gallon of coca cola is expensive than a gallon of petroleum. Go and calc: a gallon of gas and a gallon of coca cola.... or water!! An 12oz bottle of water is more expensive than 12oz of fuel. Do the numbers.
6) Having read the point 5, do you think that we are good with them? We (north american or not) are thieving their resources and don't pay a right price.
7) If we invest more in their country and this money is not invested in war, they become in our friends.

I can continue far, far away... I will not. Only 2 more considerations:

a) My country is very close to U.S.A. Our relationships with USA are very good. Anyways, we got invaded twice the last century. The guys trained and supported by USA between 1960-1965 take actions in 1965 and USA bring here 40,000 marines. Do you read? Irak is 20 times bigger than Dominican, and we were only 2 millions in that time, and anyways, the invassion was only in the city of Santo Domingo and 42,000 soldiers got here!! Irak with more people and more territory have around 140,000 soldiers there. What do you think about we and gringos?

b) I'm pretty sure the world is a better place without Hitler and Saddam will be a Better place without Osama and all those prehistoric people.

Get realist: we, the white people only want them to use their oil almost for free, no more.

Just my 2 cents.[/list]

[BillMorrow]

Melvyn,

i think i can take your assertions apart, one by one..

no offense, but you are pretty much wrong or mis-informed or looking at life through rose-colored glasses..

suffice it to say, now, that life is mean and nasty and given the chance life will kill you (the generic "you" not you specifically)..
IMO there is only a thin veneer of civility covering us all..
and when you had better not be standing in front of the fan that the sheep just hit..

yet again, i reiterate my paraphrasing of louis pasteur, "Fortune favors the prepared (mind)"..

and the battle WILL go to the strongest..

so in my mind, it is better to be strong and prepared..

1) Saddam was trained and supported by US in the '80s

so what..
your point is..?
we used him against the iranian fanatics..

2) Osama was trained and supported by US in '70s and later.

again, your point is..?
and in response, yes, we supported osama along with hundreds of other "clients" to help toss the soviets out of afghanistan..

3) In the same way that we see them as awfull and all that, they see us.

again.. SO..?
besides, every madman needs a "bad guy" to fight agains or his power will wither away..
the communists all use the USA..
but then they all want (for the most part) to come here to live..
i'm sure any haitian would drop everything if "he" was given a one way ticket to miami and a green card..

4) Our dependency of their oil can't be solved with war. Let improve our technology and find alternative ways. The oil isn't forever.

you're right on this one.. dependancy can't be solved with war but then most recent wars have been fought over oil and other mineral deposits.. and the free access to the same..

5) Have you think something about this: a gallon of coca cola is expensive than a gallon of petroleum. Go and calc: a gallon of gas and a gallon of coca cola.... or water!! An 12oz bottle of water is more expensive than 12oz of fuel. Do the numbers.

BAFFELGAB..!
coca cola and gasoline are about the same cost..
water is cheaper but closing the gap..

the numbers are how much is left and who will own it..
and i'm not talking about coca cola..

6) Having read the point 5, do you think that we are good with them? We (north american or not) are thieving their resources and don't pay a right price.

in good with whom..?

thieving..??
we pay money and buy what they are selling..
open bid sets the price except for OPEC..

more baffelgab..!

7) If we invest more in their country and this money is not invested in war, they become in our friends.

will you be my friend if i send you a new thinkpad..??
i think not and if not not then not a true friend..
in short, you can't buy friends..

the rest of your post does not bear answering just now and maybe not ever..

gringos..?
please tell me who is a gringo and where you place yourself..

and

i wish george bush had sent more troops to iraq and let the generals manage the war..

another politically driven war = another vietnam..

the world IS a better place without hitler, et al. and would be even better without some who are running loose right now..

but that is not the case..
see comments above..

[mattbiernat]

will you be my friend if i send you a new thinkpad..??

yeah you can send me a thinkpad !
I think we should really think about the differences between germany, japan and iraq. See the case about Japan and Germany after WWII is that we invested a LOT of money into those countries. Both Japan and Germany are doing very well right and can be said to be our allies. Now what would it take to do the same with Iraq? Is it even possible to rebuild iraq, make it an industrial power and an ally of United States? I think to answer this question one needs to understand the cultural differences within middle east, and between middle east and United States.

[BillMorrow]

real friends come through a meeting of the minds..
(three marriages taught me THAT one)
not through cash..

once we succeed at herding cats we will be able to make iraq a modern nation..
until then its like managing all the street gangs in the western world and pacifing THEM..

bush went against the best advice and opened pandora's box and THEN he tried to win a war without any blood letting..
not possible..

it took some doing to root out all the nazi's running around europe after WW-2..
now we are faced with 9 or 10 groups who all hate each other..
and most of them hate the US..

gahhhhhhh

[anthean]

Let me touch on a few points:

1) Saddam was trained and supported by US in the '80s
6) Having read the point 5, do you think that we are good with them? We (north american or not) are thieving their resources and don't pay a right price.
7) If we invest more in their country and this money is not invested in war, they become in our friends.

Regarding 1), as a result of the US Embassy-hostage crisis, it is true the US wasn't very happy with Iran at this time. Maybe our hearts were with Iraq. But the fact is that the US neither trained Iraqis nor provided them with weapons. I dare anyone to find so much as a single US produced weapon in the pre-2003 Iraqi arsenal. But just the opposite is true with Iran--the "arms for hostages" deal (also called Iran-Contra) did provide Iran with spare parts for a variety of their US-produced weapons from the 70s.

As to 6), we can all argue as to what something is worth, but I tend to trust in the market--you know, that supply and demand thing.

Finally, regarding 7), it is the oil producing countries that have all the surplus dollars to invest . . .

[Melvyn]

Let's offtopic a bit to clarify:
I'm dominican born, father from Spain, mother from New Hampshire. I'm legally from USA. My residence is Dominican. I've trained as dominican and rarely go Spain. I work doing job for USA's companies located at USA and travel a lot.

Have said that, I can say something, maybe not too much related to the topic.

By the way, "gringo" in spanish reffer to people from united states and it's used in daily speaking.

I've seen from first hand the way that USA citizens is seen out of USA. People have a (political) hate to gringos at almost everyplace I've visited: Spain, Panama, Mexico, Dominican, Haiti, Netherlands, Canada (I'm not sure abot what do you think or know abut that, but Canadias get furious when they're confused with USA).

By the way, I feel that usually people don't hate US citizen, they hate US politics, US way to do the thing. Sometimes US is seen as nazi (the politics, not the individual people).

This country was (maybe) one of those more affected to be an "allied" of USA. People don't think about mechanics fails on Fly 587 which killod two hundreds dominicans in november 2001.

Finally, the price of the oil is not "market". They must sell it at the price that our companies says or they got invaded by us. It's a fact.

Anyways, I'm not ashamed from my USA citizenship. When I'm out of USA I don't say "I'm American." No, I don't say it. I say "I'm Dominican." It's not a fact of patriot or not. It's simply a recomendation of US embassy everywhere. They told us: "Don't say you're americans, don't use our flag ir your t-shirt, backpack or hat..." And I'm not speaking when visiting Iran or Cuba, I mean when visiting our allies (At Dominican you can say you're american, of course and no matter).

A final note:
What do you think about our cardinal, the most high position after the pope in the Catholic Church, being almost naked by US agents in our airport. They forced him to quit his shoes, his shirt and pants to check him... you know: he can go with a bomb, he can be a terrorist. And that happened when he tried to take a plan from Santo Domingo to NY and happened in our airport. Dominican agents told to US agents "this is the cardinal". The same thing happened to the Mayor of Santo Domingo. I know the law is the same for all, but sometimes...

And I know: all this is BAFFELGAB

[mattbiernat]

Anyways, I'm not ashamed from my USA citizenship. When I'm out of USA I don't say "I'm American." No, I don't say it. I say "I'm Dominican."

cause you didn't reside in U.S. long enough. i've been here almost half my life and i consider myself 1/2 american.

A final note:
What do you think about our cardinal, the most high position after the pope in the Catholic Church, being almost naked by US agents in our airport.

that's because this country is hypocritical about racial relations. if the agents wouldn't do it, next time they stripped search some muslim clerk they would be sued by ACLU for discrimination and other BS.

[anthean]

By the way, "gringo" in spanish reffer to people from united states and it's used in daily speaking.

I've seen from first hand the way that USA citizens is seen out of USA. People have a (political) hate to gringos at almost everyplace I've visited: Spain, Panama, Mexico, Dominican, Haiti, Netherlands, Canada (I'm not sure abot what do you think or know abut that, but Canadias get furious when they're confused with USA).

Well, gee, "barbarian" just means "non-Greek"--I don't understand why some people are offended by it . . .

This country was (maybe) one of those more affected to be an "allied" of USA. People don't think about mechanics fails on Fly 587 which killod two hundreds dominicans in november 2001.

Not sure where you are going with this. It is true airplanes suffer mechanical malfunction, or, as is believed to be the case with Flight 587, unexpected stresses in the wake turbulence of a larger plane. In any event, you can't blame this on the US company Boeing--Flight 587 was an Airbus A300-605R made in Europe.

[tomh009]

NTSB report pointed at pilot error (overuse of rudder controls), not a mechanical malfunction. AA is not disputing that fact, only whether or not it was too easy for a pilot to make that mistake.
http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2004/AAR0404.pdf

[mattbiernat]

NTSB report pointed at pilot error (overuse of rudder controls)

it makes me wonder thou how can an experianced pilot overuse rudder controls and cause the airplane to crush?

[Melvyn]

it makes me wonder thou how can an experianced pilot overuse rudder controls and cause the airplane to crush?

That's the fact. And nobody here believe anything about pilot or mechanical or whatever.

Also, why insurance don't pay after that?

Do you think that governement can admit another attack 2 months after 11/9? With increases security measures taken after 11/9 another plane down would be something unaceptable.

[tomh009]

That's the fact. And nobody here believe anything about pilot or mechanical or whatever.

Also, why insurance don't pay after that?

Do you think that governement can admit another attack 2 months after 11/9? With increases security measures taken after 11/9 another plane down would be something unaceptable.

Hmmm, was someone seen on the grassy knoll?

[anthean]

That's the fact. And nobody here believe anything about pilot or mechanical or whatever.

Also, why insurance don't pay after that?

Do you think that governement can admit another attack 2 months after 11/9? With increases security measures taken after 11/9 another plane down would be something unaceptable.

Ok, so your belief is that because the DR is an ally of the US, you suffered from Islamic terrorism just as we did ? And therefore you are blaming the US ?

[Melvyn]

Ok, so your belief is that because the DR is an ally of the US, you suffered from Islamic terrorism just as we did ? And therefore you are blaming the US ?

Wait. Don't misunderstood. Don't change my words.

1) I'm not blaming the US. I don't agree with the road this war is going.
2) Terrorist choose their target randomly or according to some purpose. If they don't attack an ally, ask Spain or England for their subway bombs. I don't think, I didn't say that fly 587 was because we support USA. Anyways, that was an attact to an US plane, in road to Santo Domingo. No more. It was an attact to US that involved dominicans (wrong place, wrong moment).
3) I only told "allied" to set a word to illustrate relations between US/DR and set focus in how anything related to USA afect this little country.
4) I'm double affected in this for a lot of reasons. I have roots here and there... And I'm user of the high risk road. I don't expect to be in a plane typing in my TP when a stupid terrorist get idiot and try to "God's will"...
5) I'm against terrorist and their stupidity. I support reality and I think that if we go to kill 10,000 enemies and spend 4 years to kill only 500 enemies and 500,000 inocents, I'm sure will get 1,000,000 new enemies.
6) We're not solving the problem. We're creating many new problems.

[anthean]

Wait. Don't misunderstood. Don't change my words.

I'm sorry. Please accept my apology.

[bill bolton]

I dare anyone to find so much as a single US produced weapon in the pre-2003 Iraqi arsenal.

Since its on the public record that the US supplied arms of non-US manufacture to Iraq for a number of years, you are just being disingenuous!

[anthean]

Since its on the public record that the US supplied arms of non-US manufacture to Iraq for a number of years, you are just being disingenuous!

Can you give me an example and source ? And French weapons purchased by Iraq from France don't count. Nor do Soviet weapons.

If I'm wrong, I will be happy to admit it.

[bill bolton]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_sales_to_Iraq

http://www.webcom.com/~lpease/collectio ... eicher.htm

[anthean]

Ok, I stand corrected.

I certainly didn't know about the helicopter sales.

The intelligence sharing I had heard about.

[mattbiernat]

how about top secret sales that we are not aware of? we will know for sure about 20-50 years from now when the gov't decides to declassify some information (that is IF gov't decides to declassify those documents).

[Melvyn]

how about top secret sales that we are not aware of? we will know for sure about 20-50 years from now when the gov't decides to declassify some information (that is IF gov't decides to declassify those documents).

Dear Matt:

<mode irony=on>
Those comments come from the yellow press. The sales invoice don't exist. It never happened.
<mode irony=off>

Well, you're right. With the time, we'll know. Anyways, I don't expect any surprise, because we create our own ghost, our own monsters...

I don't imagine the way that people will read the history by year 2,200 or so...

[mattbiernat]

don't forge that winners write the history.

[Melvyn]

Yes! Good and well-aimed.

don't forge that winners write the history.

And losers are stripped of their own...

By the way, who write about Vietnam?

[BillMorrow]

don't forget that winners write the history.

a popular, yet cynical notion, for sure..

but i don't think that the history written by the "winners" is what the winners might really want to see..
IMO truth usually will win over propaganda..
might take a few hundred years..

in short, matt, that statement is not entirely accurate..
its a "one off line" and just plain unworthy..