Got my T61p. Disappointing screen. Sending it back.

[StevenD]

Well, I got a new T61p to replace my T43p, and I've worked with it for many hours, and I think I'm going to send it back. I'd be happy to hear comments, and I supposed I could be convinced to change my mind, but ...

Really the only problem is the screen. A minor problem is that I use 1600x1200 on my T43p, and I got the WS 1920 x 1200, and I was a little worried about those 1200 pixels, which were 9 inches high on my T43p, getting squeezed into 8.25 inches high on the T61p. Turns out that's not a terrible problem, especially since on Vista (and XP) one can change the font sizes in title bars, menus, etc. Doesn't work for all programs, but it's a great thing to do, especially with 50-something-year-old eyes.

The screen was verrrrrry blue, and I used Spyder2express, as recommended by another poster, and it made a great new profile that I couldn't get Vista to accept, but I mostly solved that problem by changing the color settings on the NVidia's color management page.

Main problem, that I can't seem to get over: The screen is *extremely* sensitive to viewing angle. If I adjust the angle at which the screen is opened (vertical adjustment) even less than 5 degrees, areas of the screen that were bright go dark, or vice versa. In fact, I don't find any angle where the screen is uniformly bright. For example, no matter where you sit, your eye hits the center of the screen at a different angle than the angle at which your eye hits the top of the screen, or the bottom of the screen, and those small angle differences mean that the top of the screen might be dark while the center is light. There is no 'sweet spot' angle where the screen can be viewed at uniform brightness.

And the difference in brightness between the bright and dark areas is large, and disconcerting. And aggravating, and the difference makes the bright areas seem glaring, even though most of us would like to have a little bit more power in our TP screens overall.

The great width of the screen, and thus the different angles between your line of vision and the screen surface on the left side of the screen vs. the right side of the screen, means that there will always be dark and light areas, no matter your viewing position.

When I place the T61p right next to my T43p, the light/dark sensitivity to viewing angle in the T61p is truly impressive. The T43p of course shows *some* of the factors described above, but only to one-tenth the extent, and in a side-by-side the T43p seems a much advanced display compared to the T61p.

I just rechecked it for the thousandth time (I don't *want* to send this thing back), and the light/dark screen areas, when changing the vertical viewing angle (opening or closing the lid another 5 degrees or so) are impressive and distracting and alarming. The dark areas are *much* darker than the light areas, whereas that same effect on the T43p is quite subtle and ignorable.

I'm not a newbie with Thinkpads: I had a A22p before the T43p, and before that a 600E and before that a 560 and who knows what else -- I'd always only use a Thinkpad because of the excellent keyboards and pointing devices. I work with photographs all the time, so I know what I'm looking at. On the other hand, I'm not saying people shoudn't buy this device: what I'm describing may not bother you, and we all know that nothing is perfect and you have to accept compromises everywhere. I'm just saying that this particular problem is too much for me.

On other matters, the build, the keyboard, the feel of the mouse buttons -- all exceptional. NO degradation from previous models. Some previous posters had commented on the screen being off-center, the different volume buttons, some other minor things: forget it, you'll never notice those changes after using it for a couple minutes. This is a *great* machine except for the screen.

I think I'll use my T43p and wait to see what happens with the Thinkpads. Does anyone know where I can get a 200-gig 7200rpm drive for my T43p? Remember, there was a problem about upgrading hard drives on T43p's that doesn't exist on the T61p -- you have to use only Lenovo hard drives, or something. I'd be happy to hear any advice about that.

And I'd be happy to hear any comments on my reflections (<g>) on the T61p's screen. Thanks for listening.

--Steve D.

[SHoTTa35]

you probably have that disease they call "Flexviewitis" which has spoiled your vision. Anything less than perfect (Flexview) wont be good enough for you. The newer Thinkpads don't come with the FlexView option (unless you get a T60p which you still can) so you wont get as good viewing angles as before. Some of them are still good so depending on what you actually have you might be better off with another. Apparently the Samsung LCDs are bad but the LG Phillips ones even tho not FlexView are great.

[johnvndnbrk]

Hello:

The only thing that I've noticed is a great deal of light coming from the lower part of my LCD, but this is only during boot up when the screen is black.

My personal view is that if you are not happy with it, then you should be able to return the item within 30days. You might try the 15" screen if the wide angle isn't a must have.

Could you let me know if you are able to return your item w/o a restocking fee? I am having a problem with doing so as described here, http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=47941.

Best of luck!

John
BTW: I do have a very high end T60p 15inch (1600X1200) that I will be listing on eBay. It has the Dual Core processor but not the Core 2 dual which succeeds it. Let me know if interested in finding out more. At any rate, moving up to a Dual Core or Dual Core 2 processor is a very nice upgrade from a T43 (a notebook I've owened and enjoyed).

[StevenD]

Hi, SHoTT and john,

You stimulate some questions.

SHoTT: Do some T61p's come with Phillips screens, and how would I get one? And has anyone posted about the difference?
I don't think I'd upgrade to a T60p unless the performance boost from my T43p was *substantial*. Do you have any information on that, and what is the most advanced T60p that was made?

john:
I don't see that T61p's with non-WS 15" monitors are available. Am I missing something? I'll get you feedback on returning my T61p.

--Steve

[johnvndnbrk]

john:
I don't see that T61p's with non-WS 15" monitors are available. Am I missing something? I'll get you feedback on returning my T61p.

--Steve

Thanks, Steve

This must have recently changed. The T61p's catagorized as "Workstations" were the only 15.4inch notebooks a week or so. Here is a link to someone asking about this very question:
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=47826

BTW - I was able to setup returns for the unopened notebooks sent in error, but will have to pay shipping. The one notebook I did open (since I was going to keep it), I need to pay both shipping and 15% (~$325) restocking - simply because I opened it.

[erik]

I think I'll use my T43p and wait to see what happens with the Thinkpads. Does anyone know where I can get a 200-gig 7200rpm drive for my T43p? Remember, there was a problem about upgrading hard drives on T43p's that doesn't exist on the T61p -- you have to use only Lenovo hard drives, or something. I'd be happy to hear any advice about that.

about the only option is to get the T6x ultrabay SATA HDD adapter (40Y8725) and install a 7K200 in it.   you can boot from it but i suspect that speed won't be as good as if it were installed as the main drive.

And I'd be happy to hear any comments on my reflections (<g>) on the T61p's screen. Thanks for listening.

the screen is biggest fear i have in getting a T61p.   mine is still on backorder so i have the option to cancel or just wait patiently for it to arrive.   as a graphic designer and photographer i need the best screen when traveling and your review leaves knots in my stomach.   it sounds like i might have to keep my UXGA T42p or find an IPS T60p.

thanks for the review.   sometimes bad news can be very helpful.

[Troels]

SHoTT: Do some T61p's come with Phillips screens, and how would I get one? And has anyone posted about the difference?

I know it wasn't adressed at me, but if we're talking WUXGA 15.4", the only manufacturer available is ...drumroll... Samsung.

I wouldn't personally do the upgrade from a T43p to a T60p, unless there is some problem with the T43p. Or unless you need dual core and faster graphics with double the video memory.
But again, the T61p is faster than the T60p.

The T61p mainboard might or might not be interchangeable with the T60p chassis.

Most advanced is probably 2007-93U, 2007-94U or along those lines. The 2623-DDU is also pretty fair with 160 MHz less core clock.

[SHoTTa35]

well i figured he's blind anyways and wont be going WUXGA anytime again (no offence) so he'll probably get the WSXGA+ which is what i would if i was getting any new Thinkpad and it 100% HAD to be widescreen. I'm not so trilled on widescreen right now but if i can get the same screen high virtually via that resolution as i have now i think i'll be ok.

[gator]

I can fully understand your concerns about the non-flexview UXGA screen on the T61p. As is well known, the T61 series will NOT come with UXGA (or in regular 15", no so transplant is possible either). Since you seem particular about LCD quality, have you considered buying a Core 2 Duo UXGA T60p? Seemingly they are still available from PCMall/Onsale.com and one user posted infor regarding his purchase in this thread:
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=46324

[NathanA]

gator,

Just FYI for everyone, the DDU model that I purchased and posted about in that thread is actually not a Core 2 Duo model; it's just a Core Duo. However, rumor has it (search the forums ) that the pre-Santa Rosa Socket-M Core 2 Duo chips work fine on the T60p's mainboard, so it is possible to upgrade the DDU to a C2D if you need the extra juice and aren't skittish about the risk of possibly voiding your warranty. (I plan to do the upgrade myself in the relatively near future...waiting for prices to come down a bit.)

As far as I know, there never were any T60p models produced that had the C2D+V5250 coupled with the UXGA FlexView screen; the last UXGA models released only had CD+V5200. I know because I waited in vain for the Core 2 Duo refresh to occur last autumn and was going to make my purchase then, only to have the UXGA screen CANCELLED on me at around the same time that the T60 line was refreshed for Core 2 Duo!

The only FlexView T60 and T60p models that had Core 2 Duo and FireGL V5250 mainboards in them were 15" SXGA+ models. There are a few "FrankenPads" around these parts where someone took a V5250 mainboard and paired it with a UXGA screen, but there were no TABOOK models with that pairing ever introduced, nor was it ever an official CTO option from IBM/Lenovo. To my knowledge, any ThinkPad T60p that you might come across with UXGA, Core 2 Duo, and V5250 all together is a custom hack-job (not that there's anything wrong with that ), and was not assembled nor supported by Lenovo, nor is it covered under any IBM/Lenovo warranty policy.

-- Nathan

[salaz]

StevenD,

Were you able to return your Laptop without paying the restocking fee? I am in the same boat - my T42p screen is, without any hyperbole, 1000 times better than the T61p I just received, I am also thinking about returning it. I am very disappointed, I thought they would have made progress in the last 3+ years since I bought my T42p, however, I've found that in fact there has been a regression in respect to Thinkpad LCDs. The return policy is abysmal, IBM had a no nonsense return policy that if you were not satisfied, you can return it without any fee. Do any other manufacturer offers that? Let me know, if they do, I will be doing business with them instead of Lenovo.

[jgrobertson]

Well, I got a new T61p to replace my T43p, and I've worked with it for many hours, and I think I'm going to send it back. I'd be happy to hear comments, and I supposed I could be convinced to change my mind, but ...

Really the only problem is the screen. A minor problem is that I use 1600x1200 on my T43p, a

My situation seams to be the revers of yours. I have a T43p and it is 1400 X 1050. It has exactly the problem you describe. Very sensitive to angle and looks washed out.

I got a new T60p (one of the last ones with Flexview) at 1600 X 1200 and it is great. But the T60p has Vista 64 so I still use the T43p a lot as sometimes I need XP to do serious work. It does not crash much.

[salaz]

Ok, I have enabled cleartype like others suggested, and it has improved the legibility to make it tolerable, not as good as my flexview, but tolerable enough for me not to have already packed the unit back for shipment (or even smash it like I was tempted to do). so I'll give it a couple more weeks and see - the pages in IE are loading very slow compared to my T42, so I still have to iron out some settings - Lenovo did an extremely poor job in setting the Laptop with the best possible settings - I never had to do anything with my T42, worked perfectly right out of the box.

[StevenD]

Thank you to everyone who has posted.

I'm going to reveal some naivete and maybe ask a dumb question.

I would upgrade from my T43p (a 2668-H2U with UXGA, a 2.13GHz Pentium M, 2Gig of RAM, a 100Gig 5400rpm hard drive, running Windows XP SP2) to a T60p if the T60p would be twice as fast or almost twice as fast. Otherwise, it's not worth the trouble to upgrade.

I'm not familiar with the processors available on the T60p's and I don't even know if they were ever delivered with Vista. Can anyone give an educated guess whether a latest-model processor in a T60p running Vista with a turbo drive and a 7200rpm hard drive and another gig of memory (and what else?) ought to be an impressive jump over my T43p?

I run a million applications and it takes me forever to install everything, so I only want to upgrade if the speed difference would be very noticeable.

--Steve

[gator]

Gak! What was I thinking? I meant to write Core Duo, sorry for the mistake! Nathan's info is accurate as usual. StevenD, Core Duo is much faster than dothans AFAIK. A Core Duo UXGA T60p with 2 GB RAM/7200 RPM/V5200 or V5250 ATI card would serve you well for years to come. If you really want to upgrade to a dual core thinkpad, the one that is on sale at PCMall is an awesome option (though they might be as expensive as your faster T61p because of the IPS screen).

[runixd]

I have received my T61P some days ago and I have to say all the whiners for the screen quality have either received a faulty screen or are concerned with how the screen looks more than how well it does the job.

The laptop is simply amazing.

The chassis is very similar to T60. Ram is easily accessible under the palm rest. However the palm rest itself comes off and on much easier than T60. The keyboard is also similar, like t60 is has a slightly rubberised feel (unlike the plastic t4x).

The laptop doesn't feel big and is actually about the same size and height as 14.1" T60, only wider.

The 1920x1200 screen is just superb. Everything is extremely sharp and there is alot of work space. While the resolution might not be for everyone, it is definitely great for the T61P targeted audience. If you liked 15" UXGA you'll like this resolution.

I have it right next to my 15" T43P with IPS screen. I can see the difference in viewing angle if I look at it, however while doing some actual work the screen seems to do the perfect job.

With the laptop I ordered the Advanced dock. The actual dock, while convenient, is a little loud. But I have a 30" Apple Cinema Display connected through the docks DVI and running smoothly at full resolution. And here I fail to understand people who say they are working with In comparison to a pro external photography and complain about the new screen. Both the T43P IPS and T61P screens suck badly in comparison to a good external LCD and I always assumed people who work with photography of some sort would really use a bigger external screen.

I couldn't create a set of recovery DVDs due to a failure during verification. With just one call I got a very friendly representative to send me a set of dvds without even mentioning any charge fees.
More than that, I called in, described the problem and was told someone will get back to me. And guess what, someone actually called in 15 min. Great support.


In performance, especially graphics, t60p is far behind. More than that t61p might even be upgradable to the next CPUs. Reception on the Intel AGN card is great, however prepare for problems with Wireless, Sound and multimedia things if you want to use Linux.

[Troels]

And here I fail to understand people who say they are working with In comparison to a pro external photography and complain about the new screen.

You're comparing it with a Apple Cinema series display or other high-end displays, which obviously is better than the flexview. But it's better than maybe all laptop displays and many consumer desktop LCDs (i.e. TN) when it comes to viewing angles and color accuracy, but as always, it should have higher contrast.

I'm not that keen with photography, but the few times i've used it, resolution was the most important factor rather than screen size.

Could we see some comparison pics between your T61p and T43p? The ones i have seen doesn't tell to pretty stories about the WUXGA screen in comparison

[/quote]

[erik]

And here I fail to understand people who say they are working with In comparison to a pro external photography and complain about the new screen. Both the T43P IPS and T61P screens suck badly in comparison to a good external LCD and I always assumed people who work with photography of some sort would really use a bigger external screen.

an external display is necessary for serious work but it's just not logical to haul a 30" dell/apple/samsung display around for photo shoots.   the laptop itself must have a good enough screen to serve as an interim display to use on-location.   i've had 15" UXGA displays on my thinkpads for the past six years and am hoping that the T61p's display can follow suit, especially since 15.4" WUXGA will be a better match to 30" WQXGA.

[Eco]

I'm far from a display guru, but coming from an old Dell Inpiron 8600 with a 15.4" WUXGA display (by Toshiba I read somewhere), the T61p display is a significant step back. Brightness is just acceptable whereas on the Dell it was excellent. The viewing angles are quite limited indeed, these were much better on the Dell. Sharpness is fine.

The display is sufficient for the things I do and overall I'm very happy with my T61p. (But then again I do have a nice 24" Eizo lying around for any color critical work )

[barrywohl]

gator,

As far as I know, there never were any T60p models produced that had the C2D+V5250 coupled with the UXGA FlexView screen; the last UXGA models released only had CD+V5200.

There was a Z61p with WUXGA 15.4" screen and T7600 Core 2 Duo processor. I bought one on January 30th and received it February 12th, 2007. It had an ATI V5200 256mb video card. Mine was wonderful and the screen viewing angle was acceptable to my wife who watched movies to my left, but I had to return it due to an unsolvable freeze up problem caused by electrostatic discharge.

[erik]

the only samsung WUXGA panel currently listed on their site shows 600:1 contrast, 175 nits, and 50/50/65/65 (U/D/L/R) viewing angles.   while 100° horizontal and 130° vertical viewing angles pales in comparison to IPS/FFS, it's hardly as bad as i originally thought.   it would be interesting to see photos comparing this panel to the IPS UXGA at various angles.

[kengetz]

runixd: I had the same problem creating the recovery disks, called, and got the same response. Of course, once I got off the phone, I tried running the "create recovery disk" application as an administrator on Vista x64 (that is, right-click and chose "Run as Administrator") and it worked fine. If you're using Vista, you might try that. Haven't received the disks from Lenovo, but I was able to create my own here, after the call.

[Troels]

the only samsung WUXGA panel currently listed on their site shows 600:1 contrast, 175 nits, and 50/50/65/65 (U/D/L/R) viewing angles.

... and that is not the one that is used.
The model they use is the LTN154U2-L0X, which is in comparison is lackluster. Some people on notebookreviews ran PCwizard2007 and identified the LCD this way.

Datasheets aren't publicly available from Samsung - but here it is anyways:
http://www.wavetel.us/~jonjandran/Samsu ... U2-L04.pdf

Datasheet is kindly provided by "jonjandran" of the lumenlab forum.

To quote:
Contrast ratio: typ 300. (but min 200 (!))
Average luminance of white: typ 170 cd/m^2.
Viewing angle hor.: from 65 to 65 degrees. (typ)
Viewing angle ver.: from 50 to 50 degrees. (typ)

In comparison, IDtechs datasheet on the 15" UXGA, which is publicly available:
http://www.idtech.co.jp/en/products/pdf ... U3-L06.pdf

Contrast ratio: typ 400.
Average luminance of white: typ 200 cd/m^2 (center), 185 cd/m^2 average.
Viewing angle hor.: from 85 to 85 degrees. (typ)
Viewing angle ver.: from 85 to 85 degrees. (typ)

[erik]

To quote:
Contrast ratio: typ 300. (but min 200 (!))
Average luminance of white: typ 170 cd/m^2.
Viewing angle hor.: from 65 to 65 degrees. (typ)
Viewing angle ver.: from 50 to 50 degrees. (typ)

tabook states 500:1 contrast and 175 nits though.   are you *sure* the above specs are correct for this panel?

if so then lenovo is falsely advertising their LCD panel specs.   apple got in trouble for this before on their 15.4" macbook pro.

[Troels]

http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.ph ... opic=21575 discusses the meanings of the LXX revision number, but concludes that the changes are minimal.
I'll write Samsung a mail now and ask for the L05 datasheet just to be 100% safe - i hope i get an answer from them soon

[erik]

i found this link showing that lenovo has also spec'd out the LG-philips LP154WU1 in the 15.4" T61p despite the HMM only listing the samsung.   the photos show the part number and sub number as LP154WU1(TL)(B1).   with any luck the (TL) = "thinkpad/lenovo" and means that more of us will be getting that screen.   i can't find anything online regarding the (TL)(B1) so it's an unknown right now.

[seeplus]

I returned a z61p (with a Core 2 Duo) for the same reason (lousy WUXGA panel) before getting my T60p. I couldn't be happier with the decision.

[Troels]

tabook states 500:1 contrast and 175 nits though.   are you *sure* the above specs are correct for this panel?

I'll try again. After some weeks of no word from Samsung i heard back today. I asked either for the datasheet for the -L05 or the exact difference between the L04 and L05 model.

I hope it is OK to post the whole reply. Please keep in mind that there is no guarantee he's right, as I don't know his or her specific knowledge between LCDs. I.e. even Dell has a phone support, but who said they are qualified to know the solutions to the customer's problems.

The reply was:

Dear Troels,

There is no big difference.

Just a minor difference like Cosmetic/labels/EDID, etc...

Regards,

[erik]

that's disappointing indeed. the L04 datasheet shows 300:1 contrast typical and nothing for maximum.   it's definitely not as black as the 500:1 IPS UXGA on my T42p so 300:1 might actually be correct.

samsung shows the LTN154U1 on their website as having 600:1.   why we got stuck with the LTN154U2 is beyond me.   i'd pay more $$$ for a better panel any day.



EDIT: after having watched merlin wang's LG WUXGA panel video on youtube, i'm not so sure that the LG is any better.   it might be slightly brighter but i don't see a marked improvement in contrast by any means.

[crashnburn]

Nice.