I am pretty upset at IBM

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thsu01 · #1 Post by **thsu01** » Wed Oct 27, 2004 11:45 pm

I ordered a 2373kyu with a list price of $4,145 (I was getting an eduational discount price though) on Aug 30th. Received the computer on Sep. 10th. That was less than two months ago. I just found out that the price for a 2373kyu has dropped to $3,579, a near $600 drop. I should have hold my order and waited out for another two month. Wow, a $600 depreciation in less than two month for an IBM thinkpad?

HarryWild · #2 Post by **HarryWild** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:13 am

Sorry to hear that. As they say, timing is everything! Stocks, cars, purchases of everything it is a key element! Well the way I view it is, that in life; you cannot win at everything all the time. You will lose something along the way; that is; you will over buy or get taken once in a while. It just life. A good example is Peter Lych the mutal funds guy; in the 80s and 90s a genius and made billions and then in 2004 he put his money on a stock and instead of going up it file for bankruptcy! Lost like $360 million!

lfeagan · #3 Post by **lfeagan** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:14 am

I will have to say, I certainly understand your frustration. My own personal experience with this came in 1995 when I bought a Intel Pentium 166 and shortly thereafter, like 2 weeks later, the Pentium 200 came out. I was very upset. I think I can safely say that we have all experienced this type of thing at some point in time and I (hopefully) can offer some advice.

First, I suggest getting some friends who are totally into reading everything about chip maker and OEM plans, in particular upcoming product rollouts, products being discontinued, and things of that nature. I carefully keep track of those types of things to help predict the low point in the price of a product and to make the best decision about what and when to buy. Products typically have a life-cycle that has low prices the very first week, then they rise 20% or so, stay there for about three months, then they start their gradual descent, followed by them increasing in price near the very end of their life after about 2 years or so. This increase in price is because they have moved onto a new technology and the parts become increasingly scarce in the latter part of their lifespan. For example, PC133 memory is far more expensive now than it was two years ago.

The second thing I would say is that at some point in time you just have to buy what you feel comfortable with and just ignore the rest of the world after you have bought it. Looking back at decisions that have already been made and can't be undone can be really torturous. So, this is definitely one of those cases where ignorance is bliss. Ask yourself, are you still happy with your notebook? Is it all that you wanted? If this is the case, then the extra money, though it would be nice to have back, shouldn't take away from the joy you will have with your notebook for many years to come.

This brings me to my thrid point, which it sounds like may have happened a bit in your case and which I have done personally and I know others have done before too. Sometimes there is something you really want, with all the bells and whistles and whatever else. For some reason you decide to buy it even though it is a bit beyond your means at that moment or is just a bit more money than you are comfortable with spending. This situation tends to add a lot of unnecessary tension to the whole buying of something you want and need and really takes away from the joy of the purchase. If you aren't comfortable spending a certain amount of money (ie a bit like putting all your eggs in one basket), then often times it is a better idea to save and wait until prices drop, as they inevitably do, so that you can buy what you want at a price you are comfortable paying. IBM, Intel, etc...will be around for a long time and are more than willing to sell you the same thing 6 months from now for 1/2 the price.

I hope I didn't make too many assumptions in here that might offend. I am sure some of this doesn't apply and perhaps none of it does, if that is the case, you can just ignore what I said. But hopefully some of it does ring true. As someone who has experienced a gamut of emotions with my purchases over the years, I feel somewhat qualified to speak about this.

Take it easy and hope you enjoy your Thinkpad.

skanky · #4 Post by **skanky** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:26 am

wasn't the price drop the OP mentioned the one where they brought out the 2.0ghz PM chips or something like that?

lfeagan · #5 Post by **lfeagan** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:34 am

Yes, once it was known that Intel would be coming out with the 2.0 the price drop for the 1.8 and below was inevitable. Of course, if you didn't know that Intel was coming out with the 2.0 two months ago then knowing that a price drop would be right around the corner would be a bit difficult.

egibbs · #6 Post by **egibbs** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 6:17 am

I have purchased many computers over the years - my first was an NEC Multispeed - it not only ran at the normal 4.77 MHz but with certain, specially written software it could run at a blindingly fast 8 MHz. Shortly after I bought it NEC cam out with the Multispeed EL, which had an electroluminescent (monochrome blue) display rather than the unlit blue monochrome LCD display that mine had.

I went back to the dealer to see if I could buy just the display and replace mine with the cool glowing blue one, but he told me it was not possible. Oh well, at least I had the really trick 3.5 inch 720K floppy disk drives - 2 of them because there was no hard disk. But it was over a year before I could easily find software on 3.5 inch disks - everything came on 5.25 inch floppies then.

In my experience ANY computer you buy on any given day will sell for less than 1/2 what you paid a year later. So you are right on track.

Buy the best machine you can afford and then don't look at any computer ads, specs, or prices for at least 3 years. My T20 was the hottest thing going when I got it. With a few simple upgrades it is still serving me well 5 years later. That's what you are paying for when you buy IBM.

Ed Gibbs

Greg Gebhardt · #7 Post by **Greg Gebhardt** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 6:43 am

It's a tough pill to swallow but this is the way it has always been and will always be.

All electronics can not be purhcased for "investment".

slagmi · #8 Post by **slagmi** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:49 am

thsu01, did you buy from IBM directly? That's a lot of money in a short period ! Have you thought about writing them a clean, professional letter? I work for a computer manufacturer(not IBM) and I can assure you that a properly addressed letter will end up on someone's desk who has to respond. Way better than a phone call or email. You may not get anything or only a little, but you've got nothing to lose but the cost of the stamp!

lfeagan · #9 Post by **lfeagan** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:33 pm

Greg Gebhardt wrote:It's a tough pill to swallow but this is the way it has always been and will always be.

All electronics can not be purhcased for "investment".

This is so true. I have only had one category of things every increase in value, my HP calculators have increased, some of them quite significantly, in value. But I would never sell them, <as Lance begins to hoard them like Gollum> EVER!

lol....hehehehe

LumberJack · #10 Post by **LumberJack** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:44 pm

The newest computer stuff tends to depreciate very fast... It ususally take a few months.. maybe even a year for the price to stabalise. That's the premium you pay I guess to get the newest model in advance.

LJ

MSE Environmental · #11 Post by **MSE Environmental** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:51 pm

thsu01 wrote:I ordered a 2373kyu with a list price of $4,145 (I was getting an eduational discount price though) on Aug 30th. Received the computer on Sep. 10th. That was less than two months ago. I just found out that the price for a 2373kyu has dropped to $3,579, a near $600 drop. I should have hold my order and waited out for another two month. Wow, a $600 depreciation in less than two month for an IBM thinkpad?

Wow, that is a big drop in a short period of time.

When I purchased my computer through the IBM EPP (I have a friend who works for IBM, not me) the price of the computer I purchased dropped by about $100 before the computer arrived. I called IBM and they were very professional about it. They said they would look into it for me. A week later I got a call from IBM customer service telling me they had credited my credit card for the difference in price.

I would call or as mentioned earlier in here, a well written letter would go a long ways with IBM. I hope you get the same result I was able to get.

Good Luck,

Mike

thsu01 · #12 Post by **thsu01** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:23 pm

My first feeling when I learned that the price of a 2373kyu dropped from $4149 to $3,579 was that I may be regarded as a fool by people who can buy the same thinkpad for $600 less. Only if I hold up my order for another two weeks plus, I would be able to save up a big amount of money.

My next feeling was that the 2373kyu which I spent a great deal of money on was no longer a top line thinkpad. I was so dispointed in such a way that I have to convince myself to let the feeling go, not to think that my 2373kyu is only a second class computer. My feeling, which I enjoyed a lot, that I was a little bit spoiled and indulged to be able to spent so much money for a thinkpad and really enjoyed using it, was totlally gone because I know that there is another thinkpad out there that is truely "first class".

Of course, I was very happy to see other people talking about there own thinkpad and how much they enjoyed owning one of them. But unlike others, I was even more happier than others to know that I owned one of the most expensive and powerful thinkpad there is, and best of all, no one knows that except myself.

Owning a thinkpad, especially, a top line, very expenseive thinkpad, is like owning a Mercedez Benz. What the extra money that I spent was not really for power, comfort, reliability, or the reputation. What I am investing is for a bit of respect, especially, from those who know the value and the cost of owning a Mercedez Benz (i.e. not everyone can afford a Mercedez Benz). What IBM is doing by dropping the price of 2373kyu is like dropping the price of Mercedez-Benz to the level of Toyota, Honda, or even worse, a Hyundai. The joy, pride, passion of being an owner of a topline thinkpad is totally gone for me (sadly, within one and a half month).

My attitude has changed a little bit toward IBM thinkpad. I asked myself what is the point of purchasing a 2373kyu at a price tag of $4,145 when I know that I could own one at $600 less in a couple of month. I would have gone for a 2373cwu, a 1.8 GHz unit, had I known that my $4,149 would be worth $3,579 in less than a couple of month. I don't think this attitude would be good to IBM's business, when everyone just holds their order to wait for the next generation IBM machine.

My recommendation to IBM is that your pricing policy has to be changed. Please make it such that anyone who wants to own a 2373kyu have to pay $4,149 for it, no matter when they buy it or where they buy it. When I come to know someone who also own a 2373kyu 10 years later, I know that he must have pay a great deal of money to buy one, though the machine may have a completely different and more advance spec. I want other people think the same of me owning a 2373kyu, though an older version.

KenT · #13 Post by **KenT** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 11:11 pm

Well my two cents are... if you buy a DELL, etc. they price protect for one month from invoice date.. So too bad for your price drop but that far exceeds one month.

sugo · #14 Post by **sugo** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 11:18 pm

thsu01 wrote:my 2373kyu is only a second class computer

I was even more happier than others to know that I owned one of the most expensive and powerful thinkpad there is, and best of all

If you bought it to show off your purchasing power, sorry it's a bad choice.

thsu01 wrote: What the extra money that I spent was not really for power, comfort, reliability, or the reputation. What I am investing is for a bit of respect

Sorry I would save my respect for people who choose thinkpad for better reasons.

Regarding pricing plan, yeah maybe IBM should make some T42p++ models that made with 24k gold keyboard or something ...

#15 Post by **BillMorrow** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 12:32 am

when intel announces a new cpu, they drop the price of the former top speed cpu..
followed closely by all the computer manufacturers..

i'm sure that ibm will consider some sort of refund if you can give back all the work and production you achieved while using that thinkpad..

personally, i consider ANYTHING electronic or automotive (except for my aston martin lagonda 4 door) to be much like an ice cube on a shelf on a hot day..
melting..

you buy a tool, be it a screwdriver or computer, and it does its job for you..
you gain by having the tool even though it depreciates in value..

even the IRS recognizes this and gives computers a short depreciation.. 3 years..

hiengu · #16 Post by **hiengu** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 1:15 am

I'm not sure if you should be so surprised, since isn't that the nature of technology? ie. For prices to go down.

I guess if you are buying a technology product as a "status symbol" then it should be no surprise that there is something newer and supposedly better just around the corner. Perhaps IBM should make a line of T4X computers with diamonds and just charge $20K for it to satisfy the "status" loving crowd.

I just got a T41 laptop and then just noticed that the price has dropped as well but I still love it since it meets my requirements in every way. I know I may end up replacing it in a couple years if and when my needs change. ie. new software is released

The funny thing is that there isn't much that distinguishes your $4100+ laptop to another fella's $2000 T4x laptop at least aesthetically so I'm not sure if it truly is a status symbol of any sort.

lfeagan · #17 Post by **lfeagan** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 2:33 am

Yeah, if techno status is your thing I suggest buying a Cray X1 or T3E or NEC SX-6 or something like that. (Well, I think a whole helluva lot more than that, but I am trying to keep this conversation on a reasonably friendly level.) These are commodity items we are talking about here. $4k for a computer is nothing. I don't think anyone respects anyone who buys a computer (or anything else for that matter) as a status symbol except other seekers of false valuation of material goods as it relates to their own self-serving egocentric views of the world in an attempt to mask the lack of identity present in their own lives. (Said with flowery words to be nice.)

You should buy things for you needs or for your own personal enjoyment. If there are any other ulterior motives behind your purchases beyond that you are doomed to constantly searching for happiness and never finding it for more than a fleeting moment in time. I suggest some reflection might be a good thing to do.

thsu01 · #18 Post by **thsu01** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 7:25 am

It seemed that my last post must have offended some people in the forum, because I sensed some sort of hostility here. Please accept my apology.

I'm from Taiwan. The type of feelings I described in my last post are what IBM (or IBM Taiwan) is advertising to help selling thinkpads in Taiwan. There is a web site in Taiwan looks just like this forum in every aspect you can imagine (http://www.ibmuser.idv.tw/phpBB2/index.php). People who own an IBM thinkpad would join the forum and talk about their thinkpads. Many people even nickname their thnkpads as "Little Black". In order to own an IBM thinkpad and enjoy the power and the feelings I described in my last post, the consumers in Taiwan have to pay 20% (rough estimate) more than what they have to pay if they buy one from the US. The IBM web site in Taiwan is selling a 2373-IRV (PM 1.7GHz, 14", 40GB, 512MB, b/g, ATI 64MB, 3 years) at a list price of $2,400.

Even more absurd is that the consumers have to agree on some very unfair treatments that consumers here would not tolerate. One example is that, if I remember correctly, the consumers can only return an IBM thinkpad for another IBM thinkpad if they are unhappy about their machine such as a stuck pixel. In addition, they can only return for another machine once. Yes, I said once, not twice. If the second machine also has a stuck pixel, the consumers have to live with the machine for the rest of thier life. The return must be done within a week, not a month. They cannot return the machine for refund.

So, I don't think there is anything wrong with my feelings toward my IBM thinkpad? In addition to the power, service and reliability, I also enjoy being able to use one of the top line thinkpad which happens to be very expensive.

thsu01 · #19 Post by **thsu01** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 7:29 am

2373IRV in Taiwan has a 15" screen, not 14" as in my last post.

lfeagan · #20 Post by **lfeagan** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 6:17 pm

Yeah, I seem to remember that there are actually legal reasons why IBM has to give you 30 days in the US and let you return and stuff like that. The US Government made special regulations regarding sales by mail order to make sure that consumers got what they wanted even though they would not be able to inspect the merchandise before buying it as they would at a traditional brick and mortar store.

I get Taurens · #21 Post by **I get Taurens** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 12:44 am

well, I guess owning a thinkpad does give the owner a lot to be proud of(I don't like to put it that way to say it's for others' respect), but I believe that's not the #1 reason why most people here bought their thinkpads, as least not me, I bought thinkpads for their build quality, service and portability. If some other company could match IBM in all the aspects, I rather give the smaller companies a chance to compete with IBM.
I feel sorry for your experience, the truth is that whatever you spend on your laptop, the price will drop sooner or later, I mean if you would rather spend over $4000 for a laptop, what's the disappointment for a $600 drop? firstly, you still bought *the best* at that time(no single computer is always *the best*), secondly, knowing that price was way off comsumer level just for its spec being update, I would rather ready for a price drop anytime if I spend that much on a new computer.

plucky duck · #22 Post by **plucky duck** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 12:57 am

It's the name of the game, depreciation. Especially if you're buying into a piece of technology.

You reached an equilbrium where you where willing to exchange a certain amount of dollars for an item. That's it, what ever happens to the price of the product afterwards (assuming it's outside of the refund/price protection period) "should not" concern you.

Tough pill to swallow no doubt, but what can you do eh? Can you really put the blame on IBM for this? I don't think so.

I am pretty upset at IBM

I am pretty upset at IBM

New

Re: I am pretty upset at IBM

I think what IBM should do for pricing their thinkpads

I am pretty upset with IBM

Re: I think what IBM should do for pricing their thinkpads

Thank you for your replies.

Correction

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