New (teen) drivers: training and vehicle discussion

[rkawakami]

If that's an example of how well the car holds up, then yes, I would definitely consider that vehicle. Not yours, obviously, but one like it . My 16 year old will be driving soon and I'm going to have to start looking around for a safe, semi-fuel-efficient car for her.

Me edit: Split this part of the thread off from the original topic

[mattbiernat]

If that's an example of how well the car holds up, then yes, I would definitely consider that vehicle. Not yours, obviously, but one like it . My 16 year old will be driving soon and I'm going to have to start looking around for a safe, semi-fuel-efficient car for her.

just don't get her an SUV. these are known to have poor flip over ratings, with many roofs collapsing under the weight of the car and crushing the deriver.

[GomJabbar]

If that's an example of how well the car holds up, then yes, I would definitely consider that vehicle. Not yours, obviously, but one like it . My 16 year old will be driving soon and I'm going to have to start looking around for a safe, semi-fuel-efficient car for her.

I have an 18-year old '89 Honda Civic that we still use. It is our backup car when one of the others breaks down. It was my oldest daughter's first car. Still runs fine. It is a stick shift, but it is the easiest car to drive that we own. No AC though.

BTW, I recommend a stick shift for the first car to learn on. Once you learn to drive it, you can drive anything. All my three daughters first cars were stick shifts.

[jamerslong]

i would follow Gom's suggestion, an 89 honda civic is a good learning car HOWEVER i wouldnt suggest a CRV. Hondas a very reliable cars. and a stick shift is a good idea,

if you do get a manual then buy a car thats cheap because it needs a new clutch but the clutch still works, it will be so loose that they wont have as much trouble learning to shift and if you buy a car with a new clutch than you will have to replace it sooner unless she catches on quick.

[rkawakami]

I understand the reasoning behind getting a new driver used to a stick so that he/she is able to drive most any car or truck, however...

I'm of the philosophy that a new driver needs to know the rules of the road, the possible actions (or inactions) of the drivers around them, while at the same time keeping the vehicle they are driving under complete control. Adding the distraction of left foot in, right foot up, shift up/down with the right hand (assuming LHD here ) off of the steering wheel, left foot up (slowly!) right foot down (slowly!), all the while trying to maintain concentration on the activity surrounding them, can wait a few years until they have had more experience with driving in general.

As to the SUV issue: I bought a used 1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee several years ago for the older daughter. I didn't think that it had that bad of a rollover rating. I was more interested in having some mass around her (this comes from her father who drove a 1967 Dodge Polara in high school - safest car I've ever driven!). The only thing I regret is the gas mileage it gets since she drives mostly city traffic in L.A. Now the 16 year old is trying to talk me into a Pathfinder. We'll see....

[GomJabbar]

I'm of the philosophy that a new driver needs to know the rules of the road, the possible actions (or inactions) of the drivers around them, while at the same time keeping the vehicle they are driving under complete control. Adding the distraction of left foot in, right foot up, shift up/down with the right hand (assuming LHD here ) off of the steering wheel, left foot up (slowly!) right foot down (slowly!), all the while trying to maintain concentration on the activity surrounding them, can wait a few years until they have had more experience with driving in general.

Well, I don't start them out on the Santa Monica Freeway.

I began by taking them to vacant parking lots to get used to the stick and clutch. Later, I took them out on drives on lightly traveled residential streets. It was a gradual progression. I also had them complete the Teen Smart driver education program. I would not let them get there regular drivers license until they completed and passed the Teen Smart program. As a plus, Allstate gives Teen Smart graduates a 15% discount on their auto insurance.

I think the best time to learn the stick shift is at the beginning. For one reason, I am there to make sure they don't get into trouble, and I can give them advice. If they were to wait until they got their regular license, they would probably be learning it all on their own.

[jamerslong]

i have a 94 jeep grande Cherokee and i get 15 miles to the gallon it does suck, i had a van at one point thatr got around 11-12 to the gallon, it was 90$ to fil the tank

[RealBlackStuff]

People should start looking more into diesel cars, their economy beats most gas guzzlers, even if diesel is more expensive at the pump.

[carbon_unit]

Then convert them to run on Biodiesel and maybe even vegetable oil. Diesels were originally designed to run on peanut oil.

[mattbiernat]

I didn't think that it had that bad of a rollover rating. I was more interested in having some mass around her

rollover rating is not as important as the fact the most SUVs cannot withstand their own weight uner the roof.

[tomh009]

I'm of the philosophy that a new driver needs to know the rules of the road, the possible actions (or inactions) of the drivers around them, while at the same time keeping the vehicle they are driving under complete control. Adding the distraction of left foot in, right foot up, shift up/down with the right hand (assuming LHD here ) off of the steering wheel, left foot up (slowly!) right foot down (slowly!), all the while trying to maintain concentration on the activity surrounding them, can wait a few years until they have had more experience with driving in general.

In Europe, every new driver learns to drive using a manual gearbox. Somehow they survive! Some would even argue that European drivers have, on average, much better driver training ...

As to the SUV issue: I bought a used 1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee several years ago for the older daughter. I didn't think that it had that bad of a rollover rating. I was more interested in having some mass around her (this comes from her father who drove a 1967 Dodge Polara in high school - safest car I've ever driven!).

When you think about safety, mass is one thing. However, crumple zones and safety cages are something that doesn't come with mass. And crumple zones help you even when you have an impact with something heavier (or immovable!) than your own vehicle.

Sadly, only last year Ford was advertising this huge innovation of crumple zones in their trucks ... after Mercedes introduced the concept in the late 50s, and most of the European cars adopted it by the 70s. And meantime people figured they'd be indestructible by driving a hulking Ford pickup or SUV ...

http://members.aol.com/cerick5563/physics/crumple.html

[mattbiernat]

seems like this basically helps reduce the chance of braking your neck during frontal collision.
but the thing that i have doubts about is the actual ability of a car with crumple zone to withstand high speed collisions.

[RealBlackStuff]

In Europe, every new driver learns to drive using a manual gearbox. Somehow they survive! Some would even argue that European drivers have, on average, much better driver training ...

Most countries in Europe also won't let you drive until you are 18 years old!
And driving tests are a lot stricter and more comprehensive than the simple 'drive-around-the-block' that seems to apply in the USA.

[tomh009]

Most countries in Europe also won't let you drive until you are 18 years old!
And driving tests are a lot stricter and more comprehensive than the simple 'drive-around-the-block' that seems to apply in the USA.

Personally, I think those are both good ideas! On this continent, we allow kids to drive 5000-lb projectiles at 75 mph -- before we think that they are mature enough to allow them to vote in an election.

[Purcy]

I think the idea of a young person learning on a standard shift is very good, IF you have patient calm teachers. My father taught me how to drive on his automatic Volkswagen (can't remember the model but it had 4 doors and looked like a long box, think circa 1972) and he was a strict harsh taskmaster. I was always shaking and on the verge of tears in that car while learning and after 2 days of driving around in circles in an empty parking lot, he forced me to drive us home - oh I almost had a heart attack. Then in 1981 I was on my own and was given a standard shift by my ex-husband, oiy...... I taught myself by trial and error. But I did okay since I had to drive this car to and from my job. I will always remember the particular sweetness of pulling out on a STEEP hill and not stalling.

[tomh009]

seems like this basically helps reduce the chance of braking your neck during frontal collision.
but the thing that i have doubts about is the actual ability of a car with crumple zone to withstand high speed collisions.

The function of the crumple zone is to simply absorb the energy of the collision; the safety cell in the centre of the vehicle will protect the occupants. Without a crumple zone (such as traditional North American car and truck body-on-frame construction) the nose or tail of the car does not absorb energy in the collision, and all that energy is transmitted to the occupants, causing much more severe injuries.

And the weight of your car -- whether a Civic or a Hummer -- matters not one whit of you are in a collision with an 18-wheeler, a bus, or a concrete barrier.

[rkawakami]

Where I live there's many different traffic challenges: suburban streets with kids darting out from their yards, gridlock traffic on freeways (even on uphill on-ramps where there's metering lights waiting for you at the top), four-lane mountain roads (Highway 1 to Santa Cruz, a popular destination for teens, young adults and the occasional idiot driver weaving across the lanes talking on a cell phone), two-lane mountain roads (Skyline Blvd, Highway 9, and many others). I'm sure most of you live in areas like this. I've seen the changes in driving habits and traffic conditions evolve over almost 35 years that I've been driving around the Bay Area and Northern CA. During my early years, the first "gas crisis" occurred and the national speed limit was reduced to 55MPH (early '70s). Now I see people zipping by me at almost twice that speed on freeways around here. I remember cars that I owned which had 85MPH as a federally-mandated maximum indication on the speedometer (early 80's). Recently, until a California Highway Patrol crackdown started, that seemed to be the average speed on the appropriately named Highway 85 going through the South Bay.

I'd prefer that my newest household driver be accustomed to these things for a couple of years before throwing a stick-shift at her. She's already completed an on-line driver's training course and has been signed up for behind-the-wheel training. CA law says she needs 50 hours of practice with a licensed parent over 25 and that at least 10 of those hours is at night, on top of the hours spent with a professional instructor. Now that most high schools around here have dropped driver's training as a "subject", there's been a huge increase in the amount of driver schools for teens. I don't know for sure, but I would bet that very few of them will start off their students with a standard transmission vehicle. It's probably both a blessing and a curse that most people in the US prefer an automatic over the "four-on-the-floor" (or for you older folks, "three-on-a-tree").

The amount of instruction required today is quite a difference than what I remember what I had to go through before getting my permit those many years ago. Several hours in a driving simulator. Driving a huge 1972 or 73 Buick LeSabre in town around the high school. Take the written test and the road test and congratulations, you're a driver! No provisional license. No requirement that some of your training be done at night. No restriction about the ages of the people you have as passengers.

http://driversed.com/drivers-ed-license ... cense.aspx

[tomh009]

I think the idea of a young person learning on a standard shift is very good, IF you have patient calm teachers. My father taught me how to drive on his automatic Volkswagen (can't remember the model but it had 4 doors and looked like a long box, think circa 1972)

VW 411 or 412 ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Type_4

Then in 1981 I was on my own and was given a standard shift by my ex-husband, oiy...... I taught myself by trial and error. But I did okay since I had to drive this car to and from my job. I will always remember the particular sweetness of pulling out on a STEEP hill and not stalling.

A friend of ours learned to drive on automatic, but when it came time to buy a car, she really wanted a VW Golf with a 5-speed. She bought the car (new), had the salesman deliver it to her apartment building, and then her neighbour helped her figure out the clutch and shifting ...

[rkawakami]

BTW, I do want to add this about my choice of the Jeep GC...

Four years ago when I was researching the choice of a used vehicle for the older daughter, I was also keeping the thought in mind that I might eventually end up with the car if she didn't like it and/or bought one on her own. My choices had come down to two:

- Jeep GC
- Volvo S70

Yeah, strange selection huh? The Jeep won out mostly because of the 4WD as we (my older daughter and I) were going up to Tahoe several times during the winter for skiing/snowboarding. Plus the fact that she hated the thought of driving a Volvo . At first she wasn't all that pleased with the GC either, but she's grown to love it. From what I remember at that time, both vehicles had fairly good safety and reliability ratings so that wasn't too much of a consideration of one over the over. The 4WD did help out a couple of times during our winter adventures. Of course this was back when gas was "reasonable" . Now I'm thinking that fuel economy is going to be near the top of the list, just behind safety and probably tied with reliability.

edit: Oh, I just remembered... What car did she really want? A Honda Civic.

[kensplace]

I remember a few years back, a uk show (top gear I think it was) did a feature on the stopping abilities of different cars.

They compared the breaking distance of several different types of car, ranging from the small car, right up to expensive 4 wheel drives and SUV's.

Guess which one was able to stop the quickest, and therefore avoid the most accidents in the first place?

The small car.
The big ones stopped a long way after the small one did.

[qviri]

Ray, if you're ever looking for a son, feel free to adopt me. I usually don't snub Volvos offered to me.

[JaneL]

The amount of instruction required today is quite a difference than what I remember what I had to go through before getting my permit those many years ago. Several hours in a driving simulator. Driving a huge 1972 or 73 Buick LeSabre in town around the high school. Take the written test and the road test and congratulations, you're a driver! No provisional license. No requirement that some of your training be done at night. No restriction about the ages of the people you have as passengers.

Back in the Dark Ages when I was in elementary school, this was all small towns and rural areas around here. I learned to steer a car and shift gears sitting in my aunt's lap because I was too small to see out the windshield or reach the pedals. Once we got to the main road, though, I had to move over and let her drive. When I was 11 or 12, if I had been good all week, my father would let me drive home from church on Sunday morning. By then I was tall enough to see and reach the pedals if I sat on the edge of the seat although that car was an automatic.

It wasn't until I was 14 when my father bought a second car for my mother with manual transmission that I really learned to deal with the clutch, gearshift lever, brakes, turn signals, dimmer switch (remember when it was in the floor, and you needed 3 feet to handle the brakes or gas, the clutch and the dimmer switch??) and steering all at once.

I got my beginner's permit when I turned 14, but it lapsed because my mother was sick and couldn't take me for my road test. I drove around some anyway since she couldn't drive even when she was able to get out and errands had to be run. I finally got my license when I was 16.

Then about 10 years ago, I started all over again with a motorcycle. It took me a while to learn to do different things with each hand and foot all at the same time!

[gator]

Ray, if you're ever looking for a son, feel free to adopt me. I usually don't snub Volvos offered to me.

LOL!

[jdhurst]

My daughters learned on my Volvo 240 cars (gone now, and the daughters are older and left home). I have Volvo 850's now.

I viewed the 240's as safe. My older daughter was driving our Wagon home from school one rainy day. The person in front inexplicably stopped short. My daughter stopped, but the local MP's daughter smashed into the back of my Wagon. That pushed the Wagon into the car in front.

Summary:
1. My daughter was not injured.
2. The front valence panel was dented (it had a tiny rust hole in it from a defect, so Volvo replaced the panel under warranty.
3. The rear was not damaged.
4. The Sunbird which smashed into the back was a writeoff (no joke).
5. The young woman driving was badly shaken and bruised.
6. I got nothing short of 4 calls from their insurance company asking if I was certain that my daughter was uninjured.
--------------
Time passes (some years)
--------------
I ask the mechanic what the white powder is under the rear bumper. Seems the bolts were knocked loose and the alumimum bumper was beginning to corrode. Weld strengthening plates in, reattach bumper (low, low cost), and move on.

It was sad to see the 240's disappear. They were built like tanks and could withstand a significant hit with no passenger compartment damage.
... JDH

[rkawakami]

Several months after my daughter was driving around the Jeep she got into a fender-bender (her fault). She said she was distracted by a driver next to her and rear-ended a stopped car. My guess would be she was going about 25-30MPH before she hit the brakes. The bumper does not have any noticeable problem (except a bent license plate) but if you look underneath there's a place where there's a hole in the frame of the bumper that's drilled near the edge. It broke open so now there's a jagged edge. Otherwise no other damage to the vehicle or her. Can't remember exactly what kind of car she hit but I think it was around the size of a Toyota Camry. Insurance company took care of everything and it was fortunate that nobody got hurt. I don't think that she's an overly-aggressive driver but I had hoped that incident thought her to be more careful and aware. She's been down in L.A. for two years and has driven home several times (~350 miles each way). She's got a parking ticket here at home and an illegal left turn in L.A. on her record so we'll see how she does. To compare her against my record at that age, I think I had two speeding tickets by the time I was 20.

@qviri Sorry, but the adoption process is closed for now. Besides, do you know how much more a son would cost to insure than a daughter?

[Purcy]

VW 411 or 412 ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Type_4

You got it!! A Volkswagen 411!! Holy cow, I completely forgot about that car until now. When I was married the first time at age 21, my then husband owned a Volkswagen Rabbit Diesel with a choke for cold morning. I couldn't drive that then as it was a 4 speed.

We recently upgraded my purple 1995 Geo automatic, for a 2001 Hyundai Elantra GLS 5 speed; so I am back in clutch heaven

[tomh009]

@qviri Sorry, but the adoption process is closed for now. Besides, do you know how much more a son would cost to insure than a daughter?

But think of the wedding & dowry savings!

[mattbiernat]

And driving tests are a lot stricter and more comprehensive than the simple 'drive-around-the-block' that seems to apply in the USA.

yeah except that in the DMV in Hollywood on average 10 people per day pass the driving test. My test was by the way about ~20 minutes. But that' s a lot of driving.
I passed the first time by the way

[Purcy]

Back in the Dark Ages when I was in elementary school.........

Same with my Dad, Nonny; he said he drove all the back streets of his little town here in Pgh, at the age of 11 and finally at the ripe age of 16 got his license. They had stick shifts on the column then.

Nonny, wondering why you have that mouse as your icon, surely you deserve one BIG beautiful bird. I can see you as a snowy white heron or something

[JaneL]

Nonny, wondering why you have that mouse as your icon

Check my e-mail address...