New (teen) drivers: training and vehicle discussion

[Robbyrobot]

Most countries in Europe also won't let you drive until you are 18 years old!

As in Germany, although they're getting quite "liberal" now and in some States (Bundesländer) you are allowed to drive with a specially trained licensed driver in the passenger seat, and only on certain roads, when you're 16. The idea is to give young people more practice, something that is severely lacking in new drivers in Germany.

And driving tests are a lot stricter and more comprehensive than the simple 'drive-around-the-block' that seems to apply in the USA.

Not only the tests. Getting a driver's license in Germany is somewhat similar (in time, effort and money) to getting a college education in the States. You are required to take a certain number of hours theoretical training (classes, tests and lectures) which generally requires anywhere from a couple of months to a year, depending on how fast you can get the minimum number of training hours and how fast you can pass the - very complex and very strict - written test. At the same time, you are required to take a certain number of hours of practical (driving) training with an instructor in the passenger seat. That is done concurrently with the theoretical training.

In the end, you go to the driver's training school (all of them government licensed and regulated), take the written test and if you pass, you then take the practical test with your instructor and a government tester in the car. The practical test involves slow, city driving, driving in traffic and driving on a highway and a motorway (Autobahn). You do not get to pick the day and if you are unlucky, the weather can be really lousy (snow, sleet, rain...). In the end, if you pass both tests, you are immediately given your license.

For the first two years you have the license, you are on probation and any problems will lead to the probationary period being increased by another two years. During this time, any driving problems you have will be treated particularly seriously and anything like speeding or reckless driving can cost you your license. You are also not allowed to drink any alcohol while driving during this period ("normal" drivers are allowed a certain, small amount, for example what you might get from 1-2 small light beers, depending on your weight and metabolism).

Now to the cost. The compulsory driving school and the tests will set you back a minimum of around EUR 1500, maximum the sky's the limit. One Euro is presently around $1.35. Then if you want to buy a car, you'll have a further expense. And finally, your compulsory liability insurance (no car can drive without it in Germany) is sky-high for beginners, and depending on the car (the insurance cost is scaled according to the horsepower and repair frequency/accident frequency of the model in the location where the car is registered) can be up to around EUR 2000 a year. This goes down fairly fast if you have no accidents (you are given a bonus for accident-free driving and after 20 years only pay some 30% of the high base rate), but is really a killing expense if you're a beginner. As a result, people often prefer to insure their family car to let their children drive it and gain some driving practice, since older people (parents) generally have a fairly high accident-free bonus. Then the child - or rather the adult (at age 18, the minimum for getting a driving license in Germany) - can drive the car and only have to pay a certain extra premium, perhaps 20% over what the parent alone would pay, to be legally insured. The catch is that the child doesn't build up an accident-free bonus this way and when he/she insures a car registered in his/her own name, the high initial premium applies. Sometimes you can get a better deal if you insure everything with one company, but the first years of driving after getting a driving licence are very expensive in Germany.

Oh, yes, you also have to pay a yearly road tax generally amounting to nearly a hundred to several hundred Euro. And gas costs around three times what it does in the States because of the high taxes. And a car must be inspected/emissions tested every two years, which costs a little over EUR 100.

So getting a driver's license is expensive and difficult in Germany, driving is expensive and by no means a "right" as it is in the States.

In view of the above, it's perhaps not surprising that German drivers are often better than American ones from a technical standpoint (although they initially tend to have less driving practice because of the high expense of gaining this legally) - but perhaps because getting a license is so difficult and costly, German drivers also tend to be very aggressive and intolerant of other people's driving errors. If you get used to German driving, driving in the States is so easy and the other drivers are so polite and accommodating that you can almost close your eyes at the wheel. But Americans who drive in Germany are - at least at first - generally frightened to death of the fast, aggressive driving habits here.

OK, enough rambling... just wanted to describe the situation and note that the States and Germany are two different worlds when it comes to driver education, driving licenses and driver attitudes.

[Purcy]

Nonny, wondering why you have that mouse as your icon

Check my e-mail address...

Gotcha! I still see you as one of those lovely white birds, just my opinion.

[JaneL]

Well, Bill suggested several other options, but I was set on the idea of a tiny mouse. Unobtrusive, discreet, wouldn't hurt a fly...

[tomh009]

In view of the above, it's perhaps not surprising that German drivers are often better than American ones from a technical standpoint (although they initially tend to have less driving practice because of the high expense of gaining this legally) - but perhaps because getting a license is so difficult and costly, German drivers also tend to be very aggressive and intolerant of other people's driving errors.

Based on my (admittedly limited) driving experience in Germany, I think you have hit the nail on the head: German drivers know how to drive (including how to drive fast), and drive by the rules. But the corollary is that they expect the other drivers on the road to abide by those same rules -- so tourists wandering into the left lane on the autobahn will see an aggressive response.

In the US, especially the "soft" rules (lane choices, signaling, turns etc) are ignored much more often, so you will see the old guys cruising in the left lane at 55 mph with the turn signal on permanently, fast drivers passing on the right and aggressive ones weaving through traffic -- all things that one sees much more rarely in Germany (or much of the rest of Western Europe for that matter). And, in the same vein, other drivers will tolerate this kind of driving much more often than in Europe ...

[Purcy]

Well, Bill suggested several other options, but I was set on the idea of a tiny mouse. Unobtrusive, discreet, wouldn't hurt a fly...

........ and in my experience with mice, able , if necessary, to make people shake with fear

[rkawakami]

And, in the same vein, other drivers will tolerate this kind of driving much more often than in Europe ...

Which kind of echoes my older daughter's comment about LA drivers (generally) being very nice and courteous when she first started driving there. I reflected that it was probably more due to the number of road rage incidents and "drive-bys" taking place there than proper driving manners.

[mattbiernat]

Getting a driver's license in Germany is somewhat similar (in time, effort and money) to getting a college education in the States.

I'm reluctant that getting driver's licence is as expensive as getting college education. I pay ~$10,000 a year for tuition itself at a public university.

And finally, your compulsory liability insurance (no car can drive without it in Germany) is sky-high for beginners, and depending on the car (the insurance cost is scaled according to the horsepower and repair frequency/accident frequency of the model in the location where the car is registered) can be up to around EUR 2000 a year.

same goes here. i remember that the closer you are to downtown L.A. the higher is your insurance rate. I got my licence at the age of 20 and AAA offered me insurance for $3000 a year!!!

I like the level of education that is required in germany. but on the other hand you guys also don't have speed limit on highways. also germany has much better network of buses and trains than L.A.

If the same regulations were introduced in L.A. people would not be able to move around. Public transportation in here is a disaster. The people who would suffer the most would be the poor ones. Many latinos and blacks would simply be not able to afford to spend so much money to pay for "college level of education" to get a driver licence. Most wouldn't even pass such a test because United States has the worst high school education in the world after Cyprus and South Africa according to the 1995 statistic. In the end people in here would drive without driver license and cause even more accidents as police would not able to keep up with the arrests.
I wish thou that cops in here would be much more strict on young drivers who speed. It is beyond my comprehension how can this country not allow people to drink until they are 21 but allow 16 year old teenagers to drive 5000lbs SUVs.

[mattbiernat]

Which kind of echoes my older daughter's comment about LA drivers (generally) being very nice and courteous when she first started driving there

heheheh what part of L.A.?

[rkawakami]

North and Western ends mostly. West Hollywood, Beverly Hills, Downtown (Grand Ave.), Santa Monica... Don't know how much cruising around she does, but with gas prices what they are and some part-time jobs, she can't afford much more than home -> school -> work -> home. I know she's gone down to Irvine and Anaheim a couple of times but that's about it.

[The Spirit of X21]

And, in the same vein, other drivers will tolerate this kind of driving much more often than in Europe ...

Which kind of echoes my older daughter's comment about LA drivers (generally) being very nice and courteous when she first started driving there. I reflected that it was probably more due to the number of road rage incidents and "drive-bys" taking place there than proper driving manners.

Wow, I wish drivers in Rhode Island and Massachusetts were as nice. I received my first hint that driving wouldn't be fun when I was 18 and a motorist flipped me the bird (not a parakeet!) because I wasn't going fast enough for him on the way to my road test!

[mattbiernat]

these are pretty much the same areas i drove around in L.A., plus downtown. I found L.A. drivers to be much more experianced than those in Irvine. However Irvine has many more agressive drivers or perhaps those frustrated with other's not knowing how to behave on the streets.

[mattbiernat]

because I wasn't going fast enough for him on the way to my road test!

you were lucky the guy didn't cut in front of you to slow down.

[Robbyrobot]

I'm reluctant that getting driver's licence is as expensive as getting college education. I pay ~$10,000 a year for tuition itself at a public university.

Things must have changed a lot since I went to college (1959-62), since at that time, state residents were given free tuition at state-run universities.

I like the level of education that is required in germany. but on the other hand you guys also don't have speed limit on highways. also germany has much better network of buses and trains than L.A.

Don't confuse highways (2-4 lanes) with the Autobahns (4-6 lanes, specially marked as "Autobahn"). There are no speed limits except on specific stretches of the Autobahn, but the regular highways have a speed limit of 100 km/h or around 60 mph. And in Germany, there are often "speed traps" in the form of automatic radar/camera installations that catch non-locals. You get the bill for the speeding ticket in the mail a couple of weeks later.

As for the public transportation, I'm not familiar with LA but do know from my experience in the States (Texas, Oklahoma, Florida and Ohio) that it is generally very lacking there. Could be better here, too, but I guess you take what you get. Even here you can get from point A to Point B quicker with a car (or bicycle, depending on the distance and the weather) than with public transportation.

[mattbiernat]

i think we are confusing freeways and highways or perhaps they have different meaning in our countries. Freeways can be anything from 1-7 lanes while highways are usually 1-2 lanes. Freeways are usually within cities while highways are interstate.


and education in here did become ridiculusly expansive. within my 5 years of colloege tuition jumped from ~4k to ~10k a year. mostly thanks to governor davis who was later removed from office...

and I have to agree with you. I've noticed a lot of drivers from less populated states to have really poor driving skills than in bigger cities. even my friend from Irvine, she had no idea whatsover how to behave in L.A. I think that one of the reasons for this is that some drivers from small cities just don't have a chance to learn how to drive because all they have is a couple of roads and intersections. And the DMV people also might have no way for giving a meaningful practical in such cities.

[rkawakami]

Yes, I'm sure it does depend on where you take your driving test at the local DMV. There's two offices near us and the areas around them are totally different traffic-wise.

When it was time for her driving test, my older daughter and I went to the closest office near home which is in Los Gatos. For those who don't know, LG is a small town, almost rural in some regards, with only a couple of main roads (4 lane) and certainly nothing over 35 or 40MPH as a speed limit. We went there because she had practiced some of her driving in that area (a suggestion made by one of her driving school teachers). We got there early for our appointment and drove several blocks around the DMV office looking for things which might pose a problem (temporary traffic diversions, construction, etc.; also a suggestion made by her teacher). Went to the DMV and got in line for her test. While we were in our van waiting in line a DMV driving examiner came up to us and said that my daughter couldn't take the test today and that we had to re-schedule. I asked her why and she said that she saw our van "on the course" and that it was "illegal" (both her words) to be driving around in the test area prior to the examination .

She had a very snarky attitude after I asked her to quote me the law that said it was illegal to be in that area prior to the test. She continued to say that it was "illegal" and "against the law" because some driving schools purposely follow the DMV examiners to learn where "the course" is and then take their students through the same route so that they have a better chance of passing the test. While this was news to me it still didn't seem right that it was illegal. So I asked to speak to her supervisor. That didn't go over well with her either. She stomped off while I waited in the office for the supervisor. For the next 90 minutes and a couple of brief discussions with her supervisor, we waited for another examiner to become available. I pressed him (the supervisor) repeatedly for proof that it was illegal to be in the area prior to the test. He backpedaled from the examiner's statement and said it was merely a DMV policy. All the while my daughter is getting more anxious because of this whole mess. Finally a different examiner is available and my daughter goes out and passes the test.

When I get home I contact the local newspaper's roads and traffic columnist (Mr. Roadshow) and tell him my story. He publishes it a couple of days later and says that a Sacramento DMV official issued a memo to all offices that it is not illegal to be in the area prior to the test. Also that there is no policy which says that.

[mattbiernat]

I've noticed that most people who work in DMV have no lives and they always try to make everyone else to suffer. This entire organization should closed down and a new one should be built in its place. The people who work there are unprofesional, disorganized and rude most of the time. Sadly it would cost more money for the feds to fire a worker like that than to keep one. I think this should be another thread: "Your DMV experiances..." That way we can all laugh at the stupidity of this organization. If I was a governor I would be ashamed to have my signature under anything that says DMV in it. i feel better now...

[Robbyrobot]

When I get home I contact the local newspaper's roads and traffic columnist (Mr. Roadshow) and tell him my story. He publishes it a couple of days later and says that a Sacramento DMV official issued a memo to all offices that it is not illegal to be in the area prior to the test. Also that there is no policy which says that.

Good for you!

I've noticed that most people who work in DMV have no lives and they always try to make everyone else to suffer.

Small people who find themselves in a position of power, however minor, may act arrogantly - but that isn't something limited to a DMV or even to the USA. Ray's story shows how to deal with such people - but the fact is that most of us (including me) are too reticent - and lazy - to insist on their rights in such a situation.

[GomJabbar]

We got there early for our appointment and drove several blocks around the DMV office looking for things which might pose a problem (temporary traffic diversions, construction, etc.; also a suggestion made by her teacher).

I can see the value of doing what you did, but we did not take that route. It could be argued that if the teen driver is properly instucted before taking their driving test, then the above is not necessary. I understand that many drivers might only have the minimum time required behind the wheel before taking the test, so it would be prudent to do what you did above.

I remember when I took my driving test, some decades ago, the DMV tester had me make a left turn from a 4-lane boulevard to a 2-lane one-way street. AFAIK, that was the only one-way street in the whole area. I do believe it was made one-way strictly for the DMV driving test. I made the mistake of turning into the right lane of the one-way street, instead of turning into the nearest lane. It is true, I did not see the one-way sign. At least I was not going the wrong way down the one-way street. This was the only mistake I made, and I did pass the driving test.

My youngest daughter just took her driving test last month at the age of 19. She was lazy completing the Teen Smart program so that is why I didn't bring her to take the test sooner. So basically she had 3 years of limited driving practice before taking the actual driving test. She didn't get much driving in during the first couple of years, but did get a little more this last year. My wife would not take her to drive with her permit in the beginning, but insisted that I do all the driving instruction. My wife relaxed her stance some during the last year or so.

The day she completed the Teen Smart program, I called up the DMV to verify where she could take the test. There are 3 locations in the Denver area where she could go. The nearest location was booked up for a couple of weeks out. The farthest location's first opening was available in about 4 days. Do to other priorities, we scheduled for her to take the test in Boulder, the farthest location, a week later.

My daughter had never driven in Boulder before. In fact we rarely ever go there. Boulder is a college town with the University of Colorado located there. The area of the DMV office is somewhat busy traffic-wise, with a business/residential mix. We drove to the DMV office in her 5-speed (stick-shift) Saab convertible. I gave her verbal pointers on our way there, but we did not cruise the area to check for gotchas. I am happy to say she passed without a comment from the DMV tester (he did seem to be the quiet-type though).

[NS]

Well, Bill suggested several other options, but I was set on the idea of a tiny mouse. Unobtrusive, discreet, wouldn't hurt a fly...

........ and in my experience with mice, able , if necessary, to make people shake with fear

You need a cat to catch the rat..

A little google search will return you with loads of "nonny mouse" topics.

**no offence here nonny**

[RealBlackStuff]

I have held a driving license since 1963.
I did my driving test in the Netherlands, then had to do a new test when I moved to Canada in 1968, but did not need to re-test for either Switzerland or Ireland.
During my (compulsory) military service I was even a driving instructor for 6 months!
I can drive anything from a motorbike to an 18-wheeler to a tank.
I have over 40 years no-claim bonus and (a conservative estimate) have driven probably over 3 million kilometers!
Yet, after my move to the USA (this Thursday) I know I will have to go for another driving test in PA and I think that is absolutely ridiculous!

[GomJabbar]

I have over 40 years no-claim bonus and (a conservative estimate) have driven probably over 3 million kilometers!
Yet, after my move to the USA (this Thursday) I know I will have to go for another driving test in PA and I think that is absolutely ridiculous!

What did the Gipper say? "Trust, but verify."

[RealBlackStuff]

What did the Gipper say? "Trust, but verify."

Not sure what Ronald Reagan has to do with this...

[Norway Pad]

Yet, after my move to the USA (this Thursday) I know I will have to go for another driving test in PA and I think that is absolutely ridiculous!

I thought you lived in the US..? EDIT: I now discovered that this thread is 7 years old. How come it suddenly showed up on top of the list?

I took my driver's license here in Norway years ago, but when I moved to the US, I had to obtain an US license. I was surprised to see that all it took was a quick theoretical test on a computer, and then a drive around the outskirts of Boise, in my own car. It is not fair to say that requirements were that much lower in the US, as I was a skilled driver at the time, knew the theoretical stuff, hence no problems passing. I assume anyone doing any errors while driving, would of course fail. But it was.. different. In Norway I went through an obligatory training package that consisted a day of continuously passing each other on the freeway, a night of driving in the dark and a day on an ice track. Yes, you read correctly: One day emergency braking and sliding around sideways on an ice track. I even took a motorbike Class A (Unlimited) license in Norway, but in the US I only needed a training permit, and I could just go ahead and do daytime-only riding for 6 months.

The funny thing is that we did the same "slippery driving" training when I took my Norwegian commercial license in the army some years later. That wasn't that much fun, as we did it in the summer on a water covered epoxy track. So sliding sideways with a huge army truck was scary when you slid sideways off the track and came to a squealing halt on the asphalt. The trucks that you could rent at the ice track were beaten up, as I suspect people had tipped them over several times. But in the end I managed to get the rear end out and drift the truck perfectly through the slippery bend.

[RealBlackStuff]

This thread got to the top of the list because of a spammer posting in it.
His/her/its post was removed, but the thread did not disappear back into the past.

[Norway Pad]

I realize that must have been the case. Anyway, you guys now got my general opinion and experiences with driver's ed. For free.

[Medessec]

I probably would've been actively posting in this topic if I had been around this long ago...

I've had my driver's license for nearly two years now, which of course would mean that while you guys were posting in this, I'd be 13, far younger than when I'd be able to drive. Rather hilarious thought.

But after reading most of the above... it's all really interesting to see your guys' testimonies on driving, and how different countries hand out driving licenses. Reading "Robbyrobot"'s post, it's incredibly apparent that European countries have far more militant restrictions on those who have the privilege of driving. Which I don't mind in the slightest... in talking to my British friend, he's in his twenties... and he hasn't gotten his license. Partly because he can't afford it, but mostly because he just doesn't need it, where public transit is far better. Plus, there are countless taxes and fees associated with owning a car in Europe.

Here in the US, It's just... "are you 18?", "Yes." "Are you an american citizen?" "Yes." They direct you to a board about 10 m away with letters on it, kinda like the eye-doctor, and ask you to read one of the rows. Then they ask for a couple of fees, then they shove you out into your car(you have to provide the car) and take you on a casual drive in the city area surrounding the DMV, then if you pass, you get a full driver's license.

I currently live in Chico, a college town. American Driver's Ed, combined with a college town, leads to an epicenter of terrible, novice drivers. Car accidents happen all the time here... it's crazy beyond belief how people drive here. There's a compressed downtown with a mess of one-way streets, and it's not an uncommon sight to see someone coming the other way. And on those one-way streets, the stoplights are obscured by trees and signs, so people are always running red lights.

I do agree that learning to drive a manual is incredibly important, in case of an emergency, and the only vehicle available is a manual. Although I don't completely agree the very first vehicle you learn to drive should be a manual. I've driven many manual cars, and I can just hop in any manual car and operate it. Manuals can also be far more exciting to drive... but sometimes the convenience of an auto really helps.

[Norway Pad]

Interesting. I noticed some strange driving in the US, so maybe the requirements were lower than it seemed. Like I said, I had been driving for 15 years when I took my US license, so hard to tell how bad I could have been before I hadn't passed. So I guess some benefits comes from the more extensive driver's ed in Europe: The worst drivers are excluded. But apart from that, it also makes driver's ed ridiculously expensive. I think $3000 is no uncommon price today for a regular license (My Idaho equivalent was Class D). Commercial licenses here are around $15 000, but they are usually taken as a part of education or covered by a future employer. I got mine for free in the army, that's another route to go.

As for the automatic vs. manual, the automatic really makes in difference in stop and go rush hour traffic. While out on the open road, the manual gives the best driving experience, as you are in full control of the shifting. Unless you have a tiptronic and run it in manual shift mode. I chose a BMW with stick shift, while my wife opted for an automatic. She is from the US, so the clutch and manual shifting on icy roads scared her. Btw, in Norway you can do your driver's ed and testing test in an automatic, but then it is noted on your license that you can only drive an automatic. The few who chose to do that can theoretically get in trouble for driving a manual.

[Medessec]

but then it is noted on your license that you can only drive an automatic. The few who chose to do that can theoretically get in trouble for driving a manual.

A bunch of other countries in Europe do that too... I don't fully agree with that either, because nowadays with new cars, the fine line between Automatic and Manual is getting more and more washed up... with paddle-shifters, the Tiptronic you mentioned, and the Sensonic(which I know doesn't exist in the US, and no one in Europe uses one anyways... but it adds to my point regardless). Plus, here in America, Automatic cars are the predominant type of car to drive, where in Europe apparently it's the manual. The only reason someone would be driving a manual is if they drive some sort of hauling or commercial vehicle, and they need control over the power, or if they want the sporting, racey experience in their driving.

Unless you have a tiptronic and run it in manual shift mode

My car has this feature...! But I never use it, because it's a bit dissatisfying to go between the gears without a clutch. It's just... weird.

It just seems they're making the Driver's Ed in Europe deliberately hard, so that only people who work for a living are on the roads... which is fair enough I suppose. But in America, the public transit is absolutely terrible(in High school, I took the bus, and it was ALWAYS between the arrival times), so I think it's just our government putting people on the roads as quickly and as cheaply as possible... because everyone does need a personal mode of transportation. However- DUIs have recently become an extreme problem and the justice system has cracked down on that... and we don't have speed cameras(there would be a rile if it was even suggested) but the Highway Patrol commonly employs sneaky ways of catching people going too fast above the speed limit on the highways, in California especially. I've been caught once, but I was let go, because I had all my documentation and was polite. It was for going a little over 80 MPH, on a 65 Speed limit road. I think all California Highways are limited to 65... which is outrageously low in my opinion.

You Scandinavians have to teach your kids to drive properly though... don't you? I remember seeing a Top Gear film on it... and all your roads are hilly, slippery, narrow, and tough, so you guys tend to have the best all-round drivers on your roads. Sort of the same with Britain and Germany. America does have a lot of terrible drivers... but in ratio to how hopeless our Driver's Ed is versus how many crashes we have, I think we do okay. Not in Chico, though.

[Norway Pad]

You Scandinavians have to teach your kids to drive properly though... don't you? I remember seeing a Top Gear film on it... and all your roads are hilly, slippery, narrow, and tough, so you guys tend to have the best all-round drivers on your roads.

We kind of do, at least it pays off if you are paying for your kids' driver's licenses and every extra driving lesson adds to the total price. And when I was 18, we spent all winter drifting around the bends and simply playing on these narrow and icy roads. Looking back, I see that it gave us driving skills that several times (at least for my own part) has made the difference on whether dangerous situations have ended up with an accident or not.

[Medessec]

Looking back, I see that it gave us driving skills that several times (at least for my own part) has made the difference on whether dangerous situations have ended up with an accident or not.

This times a hundred. And that is pretty awesome.

My friends have been involved in a couple of car accidents, and they've got a little bit of a hot-foot where they play around a bit and end up doing something stupid. I tend to be like that a bit too, I'll admit... but knowing your limits, and the limits of your car, is really important. My friends all own these tiny Saturns, and another owns a Mercury Sable from 2003, all these old American cars, and they blast them around expecting them to handle every bit like my car... which is the worst possible assumption you can make.

But I really think kids should be exposed to driving at a really early age, maybe even pre-teens... maybe even in smaller vehicles, like go-karts... so it's safer. Because then they'll make all their mistakes, and get all their bad driving out of the way, and they'll become incredible drivers by the time they begin their proper driving career.

I think it's also important to expose novice drivers to varying conditions, and... different cars. There's this event run in Sacramento at the Fairgrounds, an Auto Show where all the local dealers bring a bunch of cars, and let you have test drives. Test driving trucks, sedans, sportscars... I've learned that even if some cars look alike, they react dramatically different to being thrown into a turn, mashing your foot into the throttle, braking and turning, etc. I feel like now, the more experience you have with different cars; the better off you are just getting into any odd car and knowing exactly what it can or can't do.